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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In every other case I can think of, enhancements and items with the same bonus type stack. For example, on live the "resistance of good" line gives up to +3 resistance bonus to saves and stacks with resistance items, which also give resistance bonus to saves. Same deal for fighters taking the strength enhancements (an enhancement bonus) that stack with strength items (also an enhancement bonus), etc...
    The resistance from good line gives +3 to saves, despite the name it does not list a type at all. Same with the stat boosts for various classes they just say +1 to the stat, no type bonus is listed.

  2. #122
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Also remember that the additional change to Divine Might:



    So Paladins lose the Insight STR bonus on items. So that's all the Exceptional STR bonuses in the game, except for +1. So for the Paladins that built for Divine Might IV are losing even more than what you mention.

    So I agree that pure Paladins need something added to their Capstones that boost Divine Might. I'm not sure if doubling the CHA bonus for Divine Might will be the right thing. That's because the Devs don't seem to want to boost Paladin DPS more than what's already on the table. (At least that's the only explanation for not giving the KOTC access to both Undead and Evil Outsider instead they are stuck with either Undead or Evil Outsider.

    I think a fair solution would be for Divine Might to become an Untyped damage in both Paladin capstones. Yes, it will still gimp the damage of most people who had built for Divine Might IV on the live servers. But it will help the further gimping of pure Paladins since they can still gain STR bonus from the Insight bonus on items. I think it would still allow splashed paladins access to one of the best Paladin abilities, but it would give a reason to stay pure, instead of just taking 2 or 4 levels.
    ok.... thats the part that slipped my mind, thanks for pointing it out, yea so its even worse idea than before, soooo either way its going to be bad unless it will be bonus to damage and not to str
    Last edited by bloodnose13; 08-02-2013 at 09:20 AM.
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  3. #123
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashiry View Post
    This is actually a class feat now, do a lesser and you will get it for free.
    Yeah, I found that out. Thanks for the info.

  4. #124
    Community Member dotHackSign's Avatar
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    Default First impressions

    Few of things that came to mind when building/testing a paladin with this tree.

    1. There seems to be a lot of clickies, clickies to boost the paladin to a place he can start to compete as dps and clickies to do the striking. Add the destiny clickies in and it seems a lot to juggle.

    2. While not part of the enhancements, 2nd level spells available, ***? less than useless.

    3. The damage boost for the paladin seems to center on extra damage while ignoring your primary dmg number (aside from divine might which you must keep this plate spinning in the background) there is no static/inherent weapon damage enhancement. Fighters get extra feats to gain this along with weapon boosts for kensai.

    4. Root problem for the paladin not addressed. When the class was created back in 1st edition days, the means to get your ability scores was to roll 3d6 for EVERY stat. Point builds did not exist. Paladins had more stat requirements which meant that less rolled characters where able to become paladins. The ones that did were the chars with more ability points. Now, if you apply a Point build method onto this character, then you have to spread things out and you get an ability point starved character every time. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole... doesn't work well. So you end up with only mediocre paladins. This is especially highlighted if you try to build a twf paladin to take better advantage of the extra damage categories given. Then when we want to start getting epic feats, it's even worse. We need an inherent 21 consitution for epic toughness and an inherent 23 strength for overwhelming critical. If this is not fixed, then paladins will always suffer.
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  5. #125
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    i found a dynastic falcata and it gave me an thought about the divine might, if someone would want to build or already built a paladin with those weapons in mind, and built his char to use charisma as attack and damage, well that build gets broken by new divine might, whats the point of maxing out charisma for such build, where near dumping of str will have to occur, when divine might will boost useless stat for that build.

    well thinking about it, actualy its pointless to boost charisma for divine might at any way, since even +4 cha tome will give +1 extra damage from divine might so kinda why bother.
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  6. #126
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    I haven't had a chance to look at the latest update or this thing with Divine Might and what stacks with what, but my thinking that come the new enhancement pass is that a good Paladin Defender build will:
    1) Split your APs between the Defender and Knight tree, so that you can get more DPS and healing amp. I think it will be a build mistake to go all in on the defender tree due to lack of DPS.
    2) Most likely, split your main stats between Strength and Charisma. I like the idea of having a reason to raise your charisma score, but you'll probably want a good amount of strength as well. At the minimum, you'll probably want to qualify for Overwhelming Critical.

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the update, as I'd be glad to trade some defense for more DPS and healing amp, by being able to spend more points in the Knight tree. Though at the end of the day, if a Paladin build just doesn't work well I can always go back to playing my sorc
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnose13 View Post
    i found a dynastic falcata and it gave me an thought about the divine might, if someone would want to build or already built a paladin with those weapons in mind, and built his char to use charisma as attack and damage, well that build gets broken by new divine might, whats the point of maxing out charisma for such build, where near dumping of str will have to occur, when divine might will boost useless stat for that build.

    well thinking about it, actualy its pointless to boost charisma for divine might at any way, since even +4 cha tome will give +1 extra damage from divine might so kinda why bother.
    That's pretty much what I'm seeing. CHA is still important to boost saves, but the Devs have stripped the damage from high CHA paladins.

    Additionally, the Divine Might change kind of makes the obvious synergy of Purple Knight/Paladin a bit less appealing. Since the CHA to hit and damage from Purple Knights is strictly for Bards and Sorcs, since the only DPS boost that's not tied to certain mobs (Evil with a side of either Evil Outsider or Undead) is Divine Might and it now undercuts the CHA stat.

  8. #128
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    I haven't had a chance to look at the latest update or this thing with Divine Might and what stacks with what, but my thinking that come the new enhancement pass is that a good Paladin Defender build will:
    1) Split your APs between the Defender and Knight tree, so that you can get more DPS and healing amp. I think it will be a build mistake to go all in on the defender tree due to lack of DPS.
    2) Most likely, split your main stats between Strength and Charisma. I like the idea of having a reason to raise your charisma score, but you'll probably want a good amount of strength as well. At the minimum, you'll probably want to qualify for Overwhelming Critical.

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the update, as I'd be glad to trade some defense for more DPS and healing amp, by being able to spend more points in the Knight tree. Though at the end of the day, if a Paladin build just doesn't work well I can always go back to playing my sorc
    truth to be told about it is that, it will be way better from point of view of a knight than defender, knight will be able to take lot of dps stuff from own tree, and then put some points in defender just to get a bit of boost to survivability, while other way around, defender who by the main idea of the prestige is supposed to be tanky, after getting all of the enchancements to get back to the about same point as it is on live with ac, saves, prr, does not have enough points to get enough of knight tree to actualy feel the diffrence in dps, and with divine might giveing str instead of damage? seriosuly 4 points of charisma is 2 str and thats +1 damage!!! with 30 charisma you will get 5 extra points of damage.... 5!!! thats a barely noticeable value for serious investment of points in the tree to get it, also gimping a tank prestige build to get heal amp from OTHER prestige is a shot in the foot.... defender should get own defence themed heal amp, and there should be some merging of enchancements to make space for OWN defender smites, so getting stuff from knight tree would be OPTIONAL and not REQUIREMENT.


    i havent seen all of the class prestige trees, but all those i seen, big chunk of the tree is optional, stuff that may be usefull to one useless for other, you take what you want, while defender tree is 90% must have, or ac, saves and prr get dropped by considerable amounts, even fighter defender gets more original enchancements than paladin defender.

    last time i checked the costs on the enchancements for stance was lowered and its a good thing it gave some ap to use in the other tree but its still pretty hard to get enough of dps, especialy that you have to take things that you probably wont need to get to the higher tiers, there is that (cant recall the name of those 2 enchacnements in left top corner in defender) is boosting the ac from shield and armor, it still costs 2 ap per tier, maybe it could be made 2 points to unlock and 1 to upgrade?
    Last edited by bloodnose13; 08-07-2013 at 03:42 PM. Reason: typeing while tired.....
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  9. #129
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    Default Still the red headed stepchild of ddo

    Paladins have been the weakest class as far back as I can remember (been playing since May of '06). I am running a capped 18/2 paly/fighter DOS geared for S&B but run thf because of all the un-fixed issues with S&B. This new enhancement system does nothing to bring Palys up to par with the other classes. Spent the better part of two days fooling around with the new enhancements and ultimately I see losses in AC, PRR, and HP.

    Going back to my Jugg for now. Will TR this toon into something useful. Goodbye Paladin

  10. #130
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReturningKing View Post
    Paladins have been the weakest class as far back as I can remember (been playing since May of '06). I am running a capped 18/2 paly/fighter DOS geared for S&B but run thf because of all the un-fixed issues with S&B. This new enhancement system does nothing to bring Palys up to par with the other classes. Spent the better part of two days fooling around with the new enhancements and ultimately I see losses in AC, PRR, and HP.

    Going back to my Jugg for now. Will TR this toon into something useful. Goodbye Paladin
    Sadly I TRed my pure pally too, seems like they want pally to just be for splashing a few levels. Will perhaps take a look again when all this goes live but....
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  11. #131
    The Hatchery BruceTheHoon's Avatar
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    New to beta, so a quick question: is the devotion enhancement line back yet and why isn't it?

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceTheHoon View Post
    New to beta, so a quick question: is the devotion enhancement line back yet and why isn't it?
    Nope, if you want positive spell power you have to spends points in the defender tree. 1 spell power per point spent as I recall.

  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    Nope, if you want positive spell power you have to spends points in the defender tree. 1 spell power per point spent as I recall.
    The defender tree is useless if you're not making a tank.

    If you want devotion as a non-tank pally you need to splash 1 ranger level. May as well toss in a second ranger level to open up easier access to furyshot. I know that's what I'll be doing, currently planning on 16/2/2 pally/rogue/ranger.

  14. #134
    Founder & Build Synthesis Battlehawke's Avatar
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    Default pally

    If you want devotion as a non-tank pally you need to splash 1 ranger level. May as well toss in a second ranger level to open up easier access to furyshot. I know that's what I'll be doing, currently planning on 16/2/2 pally/rogue/ranger

    Why not two Monk instead of Rogue? Evasion and TWO Feats?
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  15. #135
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    So I just logged in briefly to check for any changes. I'll have to look more latter but nothing obvious has changed in the paladin trees.

    It occurs to me that I may need to be more specific about why I feel the defender capstone is so awful compared to the knight of the chalice capstone.

    The knight of the chalice capstone adds damage against evil enemies, this is literally useful multiple times in every single quest. In many quests it is useful every time I swing my weapon.

    The defender capstone is only useful if you die. (And even then only if you die by less than -50 HP) I die maybe once a month and frequently that is either to instant death, brain sucked by a mindflayer, or to massive damage where -50 won't matter anyways.

    So my choices are a capstone that is useful all the time or one that might help a couple of time per year. It doesn't even need to add damage but the defender capstone needs to be something that would actually be useful every time I run a quest.

  16. #136
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    Default A Few Points

    New icons for the various enhancements are nice. Two things I noticed:

    1. Sacred Armor Mastery still only gives +1 to max armor dex bonus even when maxed.

    2. Tooltip says each LOH level adds +3 LOH - actually adds +2.

    Also, I used to agree with the various comments that SD capstone was not as good as the other one. However, having been caught in two major lagfights which normally would have killed me except for the capstone, you grow to appreciate it.

    Edit: Corrected to reflect LOH count is a tooltip error and ED stacks normally.
    Last edited by Texlaw1992; 08-11-2013 at 01:13 AM.

  17. #137
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    Divine Might can't be used until a character has Turn Undead charges. That's doesn't occur until Paladin level 4, yet Divine Might is a tier 2 (Paladin level 2) enhancement. Divine Might should probably be moved up the enhancement tree to tier 4 to avoid this oversight in design.
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  18. #138
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    Paladin Knight of the Chalice:

    NEW Divine Might is now an Insight bonus so it stacks with other Paladin abilities
    Great, now it dosent stack with +3 STR insight bonus items.(confirmed)
    Is this WAI?

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by easterwhale View Post
    Great, now it dosent stack with +3 STR insight bonus items.(confirmed)
    Is this WAI?
    From another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Okay, so yeah, Vargouille just confirmed in dev chat a few minutes ago that Divine Might was intentionally nerfed into uselessness. Transcription:

    (UserChat1): [To DevChat] 'yeah: does divine might stack with insightful strength items?'

    (UserChat1): [DevChat] +Vargouille: 'Divine Might was changed due to a number of things not stacking within the Paladin trees themselves.'

    (UserChat1): [To DevChat] 'varg, is it a bug that divine might doesn't stack with insightful strength items?'

    (UserChat1): [DevChat] +Vargouille: 'Divine might does not stack with other insightful sources. That is working as intended.'

    Not stacking with insightful strength items? Oy. I've seen some bad dev decisions before, but good god almighty this is one of the worst.

    Pallies just got kicked in the teeth while rolling around on the ground after having been kicked in the nuts.
    So it looks like it's WAI.

    I did warn about this. So Divine Might has now been nerfed if Paladins want to increase STR via gear, pretty much the only option for pure Pallies besides feats and the STR enhancements and EDs. This is on top of Divine Might actually nerfing damage for any Paladin that build for Divine Might IV.

    And remember, this is the only general DPS boost for paladins in either tree. All other DPS is tied into fighting Evil mobs and the additional increases via Undead or Evil Outsiders.

    The Devs need to go back and redesign both Paladin trees. If they can't do this before the Update, they need to do it in conjuction with the Warpriest tree, since as things stand now the Clerics can only eclipse paladins at melee when the Warpriest tree is added. Do I expect the Devs to do it? Of course not, since they've clearly marked a line in the sand that what Paladins had a few months ago was as powerful as pure Paladins will get after the expansion.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    From another thread:
    So it looks like it's WAI.
    I did warn about this.---.
    Thx for the info.
    Well,since its WAI ...time to get myself a +3 con planar focus.

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