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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by gflash View Post
    In fact, even in the old system Defender of Syberis had a lot of prerequisite enhancements, as well as level requirements. It's not true that the stance costs only 8 AP.
    I have a bunch of commentary, but on regards to this, _yes_. It had pre-reqs, but those were damn useful pre-reqs, and I could actively use them. Things like extra lay, extra turn, that hp/sp attack thingy that was great, upgrades to smite, so on so forth.


    However.... (cut and paste-ish from thread in iconics w/ added commentary)

    I don't know about any of the other iconics, or even races, but bladeforged racial enhs are USEFUL.... But....

    So. Lets assume you play a bladeforged, splitting your points between just sacred defender and your racial points, because you are trying to snb it. Yes, bladeforged have some pluses if you thf it, but you really want to snb it because hey, its a paladin sort of thing.

    The racial points are what make bladeforged what they are... At 15, if you spend 15ish points in your racial pool, you simply do not have enough points to splash kotc with sacred defender. What does that mean? You are effectively gimped. Trying to get use out of my racial means I lost things like extra lay, extra turn, that 5 hp 1 sp damage attack thing, so on so forth. In fact, generally speaking, I am so much more inefficient that it just isn't funny.

    The one advantage is that I can spam (for a limited time) reconstruct, which keeps me up a very large amount of time, which sort of offsets the loss of hps, but certainly does not make up for the bits I lost that I can only get from kotc.....

  2. #62
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    Divine might contributing charisma mod to strength is a welcome change, but Divine Might and Sacred Stance Strength are not stacking. Divine might claims it is sacred while the stance claims it is competence, but that must not be true behind the scenes.

    I also think the divine might cast speed has been reduced which I appreciate. I hope the duration of DM is not shortened.

    Making the bonus hit points of the defensive stance depend on wearing a shield is not necessary. Two handed fighting paladins still won't be great dps.

  3. #63
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    Default HPs Halved? Also, Possible Defender Capstone Issue

    Before the latest update, I put about 60 points into Defender and got 60 extra hps. Now I only get an additional 30 hps.

    Also, I'm not sure if the new Defender capstone is working. Soloing HE on the first quest, I went into the chest room with four traps without paying attention, managed to roll a 1 and got killed with all 4 exploding. It does not appear that I was ressed (at least I didn't see anything indicating the capstone kicked in, and it was on).

    It's possible that if the capstone has no separate animation, it might have triggered and then the traps instantly killed me, but thought I'd mention it regardless.

    Also, does anyone know if the 75 sp in Empower Heal stacks with the sp you get from the Defender tree? It seemed like it, but I'm not sure.

  4. #64
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    Default Can't afford the heal amp

    Paladin heal amp is too expensive (tier 5?), and we don't get any in the tanking tree?

    I'd prefer to see the 5% increase based on core abilities similar to the Shintao monk. Maybe amp belongs in both trees, but I'd give preference to the defender tree.

  5. #65
    Community Member bloodnose13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texlaw1992 View Post
    Also, I'm not sure if the new Defender capstone is working. Soloing HE on the first quest, I went into the chest room with four traps without paying attention, managed to roll a 1 and got killed with all 4 exploding. It does not appear that I was ressed (at least I didn't see anything indicating the capstone kicked in, and it was on).
    that capstone if i remember right does not rez you, it heals you when you go below 0 hp but are still in the bleed out area, not dead, but idk if it works, havent actualy tried to got it work.
    Last edited by bloodnose13; 07-15-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoSoh View Post
    Paladin heal amp is too expensive (tier 5?), and we don't get any in the tanking tree?

    I'd prefer to see the 5% increase based on core abilities similar to the Shintao monk. Maybe amp belongs in both trees, but I'd give preference to the defender tree.
    Vigor of Life, which is 10% Heal Amp, might be a Tier 5 ability, but it's also a Tier 3 and 4 ability also.

  7. #67
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    Default Capstone

    I did some more (unintentional) testing of the Defender capstone when I got stuck in two horrible lagfights on HE.

    The lag often took me below zero, but I never died - finally a cure for lagdeath!

    Yes, the heal will not kick in if a trap or attack takes you below =40 or so.

  8. #68
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoSoh View Post
    Paladin heal amp is too expensive (tier 5?), and we don't get any in the tanking tree?

    I'd prefer to see the 5% increase based on core abilities similar to the Shintao monk. Maybe amp belongs in both trees, but I'd give preference to the defender tree.
    Healing amp belongs in the same tree as Hunter of the Dead (which has morphed into Knight of the Chalice). That's the prestige that boosted healing amp What's painful is that healing amp used to be one of the free grants of the prestige and now costs 6ap.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    Healing amp belongs in the same tree as Hunter of the Dead (which has morphed into Knight of the Chalice). That's the prestige that boosted healing amp What's painful is that healing amp used to be one of the free grants of the prestige and now costs 6ap.
    Every prestige class now has some free feature having to cost more. For example, Censure Demon, in a different form, was a free ability for KOTC, along with extra Smites. And some older prestige classes have it worse than others when it comes to the free abilities on live; for example, Acrobats only get Kip Up free in the new enhancements.

    On a different topic about Paladins, since the new items now have +x% bonus to melee and ranged attack speed, can paladins get their old Zeal back in some form? Wasn't it nerfed because it was causing lag? If the same effect is now being added to items for all classes, it must not be a lag problem anymore. So can we get it back in the Core Abilities or something?

  10. #70
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    I actually found the paladin trees very affordable. I had plenty of points available to put into both trees, but the positive spell power is still lacking. Overall I think the enhancements are well done here.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by eachna_gislin View Post
    Healing amp belongs in the same tree as Hunter of the Dead (which has morphed into Knight of the Chalice). That's the prestige that boosted healing amp What's painful is that healing amp used to be one of the free grants of the prestige and now costs 6ap.
    The full 30% used to cost 27AP, plenty of which was spent on useless enhancements, was only available to Lvl 18 pure paladins. Now, the full 30% is available at level 12(5 of which must be pally), for 32AP, and you can spend those ap's on exalted smite line, divine might, stat boosts, divine sacrifice, and plenty of other useful enhancements.

  12. #72
    Community Member psymun's Avatar
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    It seems to me as though there have been no improvements to paladins. Everything is either a downgrade or a wash.

    I seem to recall a quote from one of the Devs specifically stating that there would be balancing, but there wouldn't be any nerfs, only augments. This was obviously a flat-out lie.

    I guess I really just need to know if all of these losses are permanent? If so, Turbine is bound to lose WAY more players than it stands to gain.

    My guild alone has been reduced from 35 active members to being lucky if there are more than 2-3 people online over the last 3 months. I honestly don't get where turbine is going with all of this, but it's unlikely that I will continue playing. I have already paid for the expansion pack, so I will take a look once it goes live, but there needs to be some major changes between now and then for me to stay.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by psymun View Post
    It seems to me as though there have been no improvements to paladins. Everything is either a downgrade or a wash.

    I seem to recall a quote from one of the Devs specifically stating that there would be balancing, but there wouldn't be any nerfs, only augments. This was obviously a flat-out lie.

    I guess I really just need to know if all of these losses are permanent?
    From a pure Paladin view, I have to agree with you that it's somewhere between and wash or a downgrade. Although pure paladins can now get a little bit of something from all three prestige classes on live, there seems to be components missing (extra smites from the KOTC tree, for example) among other things lack.

    With that said, from a splash of paladin PoV, the new trees are a godsend since most of the paladins most powerful stuff is easy to snatch at low levels and no longer contain level gating or high Cha stat requirements. I'm sure most of the positive feedback that the Devs have received (and from what I understand it's primarily what they are responding to) comes from multi-class paladins and not pure paladins. Almost all comments about helping pure paladins from players who don't play pure paladins is that only taking a few levels is all that's needed and there's no reason to give pure paladins more.

    And I'm still waiting for the Capstones for all classes to be worth forfeiting a few levels of something else... But it seems the Devs have abandon the concept that "Capstones should be as powerful or more powerful than Evasion".

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    I actually found the paladin trees very affordable. I had plenty of points available to put into both trees, but the positive spell power is still lacking. Overall I think the enhancements are well done here.
    Both trees? You are obviously ignoring your race tree. Lord forbid you have to put 15 points into your race tree because there are some significant things (bladeforged pure, purple dragon splash into almost entirely paladin build).

  15. #75
    Community Member Dylvish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    With that said, from a splash of paladin PoV, the new trees are a godsend since most of the paladins most powerful stuff is easy to snatch at low levels and no longer contain level gating or high Cha stat requirements. I'm sure most of the positive feedback that the Devs have received (and from what I understand it's primarily what they are responding to) comes from multi-class paladins and not pure paladins. Almost all comments about helping pure paladins from players who don't play pure paladins is that only taking a few levels is all that's needed and there's no reason to give pure paladins more.

    And I'm still waiting for the Capstones for all classes to be worth forfeiting a few levels of something else... But it seems the Devs have abandon the concept that "Capstones should be as powerful or more powerful than Evasion".
    Ive noticed this as well.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Almost all comments about helping pure paladins from players who don't play pure paladins is that only taking a few levels is all that's needed and there's no reason to give pure paladins more....
    Unless you are playing a bladeforged? Or heaven forbid, actually want to go to 20 with a paladin?

    If you are multiclassing, there are tons of people that just go to 2. Maybe even 5. But then those people are not paladins... They get shrifted on max spell level. So unless you plan to pick up spell casting from other classes, you must take a rather large number of paladin levels (or even go pure) to maximize your spell casting ability.

    Again, moreover with trying to do paladin trees with racial trees, like mixing in either purple dragon or bladeforged trees, both of which have particularly good powers at higher costs. Reconstruct (3) is a very good ability, but it is far from cheap, given that every point you spend is one less you can spend on your multiclass or multi tree pure paladin.

    Your assumption is that people commenting arent playing pure paladins. Every char I have made that is a paladin is either pure, or almost pure, with attempts to mix in racials where useful (some racials trees are a waste of points....).

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrag View Post
    Your assumption is that people commenting arent playing pure paladins. Every char I have made that is a paladin is either pure, or almost pure, with attempts to mix in racials where useful (some racials trees are a waste of points....).
    What I was commenting on was that the Devs are listening to people who seem satisfied with the new paladin enhancements, which are mostly people who just splash paladin. It's been posted "elsewhere" that the Devs have received almost universally positive feedback from all the class enhancements so they will not be change much more than what has already been changed, except for Clerics (who will be getting a new melee DPS tree) and Sorcs (who will be getting a new tree in two updates).

    Meanwhile, there's been alot of negative feedback from people who build pure paladin, with nothing being addressed.

  18. #78
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    As noted earlier in this thread, the Capstones are underwhelming. They need to be radically improved. There NEEDS to be a reason to go 20 levels of Paladin (or other class, as most have underwhelming Capstones). It needs to be something that defines the particular enhancement set. So for KotC, it could be something that GREATLY increases DPS against Undead AND Demons AND Devils. Like massive bane damage or 3[W] or more. But it needs to be something that makes folks seriously consider going Pure.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    What I was commenting on was that the Devs are listening to people who seem satisfied with the new paladin enhancements, which are mostly people who just splash paladin. It's been posted "elsewhere" that the Devs have received almost universally positive feedback from all the class enhancements so they will not be change much more than what has already been changed, except for Clerics (who will be getting a new melee DPS tree) and Sorcs (who will be getting a new tree in two updates).

    Meanwhile, there's been alot of negative feedback from people who build pure paladin, with nothing being addressed.
    All, your clarification makes total sense. Thanks!

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealKorike View Post
    As noted earlier in this thread, the Capstones are underwhelming. They need to be radically improved. There NEEDS to be a reason to go 20 levels of Paladin (or other class, as most have underwhelming Capstones). It needs to be something that defines the particular enhancement set. So for KotC, it could be something that GREATLY increases DPS against Undead AND Demons AND Devils. Like massive bane damage or 3[W] or more. But it needs to be something that makes folks seriously consider going Pure.
    KOTC seems like the easier of the two Capstones to improve. First, I still believe that the Core Abilities for KOTC allow KOTC to focus on both Undead and Evil Outsider early on. If not at level 1, then at either level 6 or 12. At the very least, it should be available in the capstone, since Cleric's Divine Disciple grants all the Core Abilities at its capstone (which are spells that not only do alot of DPS damage, but affect more mobs than paladins two specialties). Additionally, extra Smites need to be added back to KOTC Core Abilities because KOTCs still have less smites than on Live even if the extra Smites work from the Exalted Smite Line. The KOTC capstone should also treat all weapons as if they have Disruption against the Undead and Banishing against Evil Outsiders.

    I think that would fix the KOTC Core Abilities. The Enhancements would still need to be tinkered with, such as making Holy Retribution into something useful because it's too costly and does too little, besides not working.

    For the Sacred Defender, I'll be honest and tell you I'm not sure that I have a good solution for it. It definitely needs the good weapons added to it (or as someone mentioned somewhere just make it a granted paladin feat at level 20). I'd probably add a Light and Good Guard for the Defender's capstone, but make it a Toggle button that works with all stances. I know more is needed, but I'm not sure exactly since I don't play a Defender Paladin.

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