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  1. #21
    Community Member Mark2422's Avatar
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    Without having read the Dev post about Spellcraft not going live at the same time as the new system, did they specifically say it would go live AFTER the new enhancement system?

    We already know that they are not planning on the new system being ready for the new expansion this summer. So I think it is highly possible that Spellcraft may even hit live before the new system. I am not sure why it would be longer unless they want to see how things settle down with the new system before they introduce Spellcraft. And if that is the case then they may use Spellcraft or a skill like it, to plug any gaping wholes the new system might bring. Aka Sorcs being on -1,000,000 spell power...
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  2. #22
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    That's still pretty pointless in a discussion on how the skill actually works. I also doubt we'll be waiting for 2 years to implement the skill. Any delays creating a nerf just gets back to my point that the skills carry too much spell power while the enhancements don't carry enough.
    I'll just quote this for semplicity.

    The quote is exactly my point. Spellcraft, as of now, is too much important for every class to make it just INT based. The enhancements should be our primary concern regarding Spellpower. Make the ENH gives us EXACTLY THE SAME spell power that we have on Live now and then I couldn't care less if Spellcraft was based on it.

    Right now, I NEED Spellcraft to reach the spellpower that I have on Live (let's remember that I made a mistake in my numbers, sorcerers are getting 120 Spell power including capstone, not 100). Fix this and then you can make spellcraft based on DEX as far as I care.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark2422 View Post
    Without having read the Dev post about Spellcraft not going live at the same time as the new system, did they specifically say it would go live AFTER the new enhancement system?

    We already know that they are not planning on the new system being ready for the new expansion this summer. So I think it is highly possible that Spellcraft may even hit live before the new system. I am not sure why it would be longer unless they want to see how things settle down with the new system before they introduce Spellcraft. And if that is the case then they may use Spellcraft or a skill like it, to plug any gaping wholes the new system might bring. Aka Sorcs being on -1,000,000 spell power...
    This is from the release notes. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...d-4-11-2013%29

    Quote Originally Posted by Release Notes
    Spellcraft

    While this is still currently in the design/development stage, you may notice the pre-alpha version of this new feature appearing in the character sheets and character creation process. Spellcraft will be a new skill, along with spellpower changes to Heal, Repair, and Perform. We're adding Spellcraft as another source of spellpower, and another option for building during character creation and advancement. Some casting classes have traditionally had less meaningful choices when taking skills.

    Spellcraft is being previewed with the current Lamannia builds but is not intended for release with the next patch/update. Please feel free to enjoy this very early look at the new skill.



    Key Changes

    Your Heal skill total modifier is added to your Positive and Negative Spellpower.
    Your Repair skill total modifier is added to your Repair and Rust Spellpower.
    Your Perform skill total modifier is added to your Sonic Spellpower.
    Spellcraft is a new Intelligence based skill. Your Spellcraft total modifier is added to every other type of Spellpower (everything except Positive, Negative, Repair, Rust, and Sonic).
    Spellcraft is a class skill for these classes: Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Wizard.
    Spellcraft is a trainable cross-class skill for other classes (similar to skills such as Balance).
    I don't think it's actually clear the spellcraft and the other skill changes are part of the enhancement changes in the first place. U18 is scheduled to hit Lamma 5/06 and is not the new expansion yet either. I read the release notes as stating that spellcraft isn't releasing with U18 and I don't believe the enhancement changes are either.

    EDIT: Quote on U18 for 5/06 if anyone hasn't seen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    Hello!

    Lamannia will be coming down tomorrow (Friday, May 3) from 8am to 10am EST (GMT -4) for some Maintenance. This downtime will not bring new content to Lamannia.

    Next Monday (May 6), Lamannia will have another Update. (Downtime from 10am to 2pm EST (GMT -4).) Monday's Update will bring new fun things to Lamannia (Update 18 quests). We will be removing the New Enhancements and going back to the current Live version of Enhancements. Because this transition can cause issues, we will also have a Character Wipe at this time.

    Smiles,
    Squeak
    Last edited by Aashrym; 05-03-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Mark2422's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    This is from the release notes. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...d-4-11-2013%29



    I don't think it's actually clear the spellcraft and the other skill changes are part of the enhancement changes in the first place. U18 is scheduled to hit Lamma 5/06 and is not the new expansion yet either. I read the release notes as stating that spellcraft isn't releasing with U18 and I don't believe the enhancement changes are either.

    EDIT: Quote on U18 for 5/06 if anyone hasn't seen it.
    Thanks for that.

    So where has this notion come from that Spellcraft will not be released with the new enhancement tree's? I thought it had already been made clear that the new Enhancement system would not be in the next patch and I think not even in time for the expansion. From what i read there it looks to me like spellcraft will be going live at the same time, as it is at the same stage in testing. Unless it has been stated somewhere else that it would not...
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  5. #25
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark2422 View Post
    Thanks for that.

    So where has this notion come from that Spellcraft will not be released with the new enhancement tree's? I thought it had already been made clear that the new Enhancement system would not be in the next patch and I think not even in time for the expansion. From what i read there it looks to me like spellcraft will be going live at the same time, as it is at the same stage in testing. Unless it has been stated somewhere else that it would not...
    It was said in a Dev chat in game.

  6. #26
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    Intellect represents your knowledge of the arcane. Which is why wizards and sorcerers have different primary ability scores. Making a skill that is based on arcane study is perfectly logical. However, I also agree that Spellcraft could simply come with the passive arcane feat.

    To all the people complaining about how broken they are going to be without this new skill, I would like to know HOW they will be broken. It seems that the only real complaint is that Spellcraft is going to be based on Int. Why are you complaining instead of rolling Int; what other ability score is so darn important that you can not exchange for more spellpower?
    The crux is that you complainers want your cake and eat it. You are not willing to trade all those points in Str or Dex for more spellpower. Or you are a first-lifer and have never ate a few tomes, and can not afford to Lesser Reincarnate. Assuming you are an arcane caster, I am sure divines actually have a more legitimate reason to object.
    You should be complaining about the new savant line not being powerful enough, if you are really threatened about how your character will perform.

  7. #27
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Spellcraft providing spell power and having only INT as a primary stat is ill conceived and ill thought out. I appreciate that we want to change skills to be worthwhile for casters, but this type of change would really muddy the water between Wizards and Sorcs. Why give +20 more spell power to Wizards over Sorcs?

    Also, off topic a little, but since we are going to level 28 soon casters really need new, higher level, spells with higher maximum caster levels and ways to further (significantly) increase MCL and DCs for existing spells. A 28 quest on elite is level 30. How ludicrous is it for someone to be casting spells with maximum caster levels of 5,10,15 (there are only a few MCL level 20 spells) against level 30 monsters? DCs aren't going up at the same rate monster levels and saving throws are going up.

  8. #28
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Sorcier View Post
    Intellect represents your knowledge of the arcane. Which is why wizards and sorcerers have different primary ability scores. Making a skill that is based on arcane study is perfectly logical. However, I also agree that Spellcraft could simply come with the passive arcane feat.

    To all the people complaining about how broken they are going to be without this new skill, I would like to know HOW they will be broken. It seems that the only real complaint is that Spellcraft is going to be based on Int. Why are you complaining instead of rolling Int; what other ability score is so darn important that you can not exchange for more spellpower?
    The crux is that you complainers want your cake and eat it. You are not willing to trade all those points in Str or Dex for more spellpower. Or you are a first-lifer and have never ate a few tomes, and can not afford to Lesser Reincarnate. Assuming you are an arcane caster, I am sure divines actually have a more legitimate reason to object.
    You should be complaining about the new savant line not being powerful enough, if you are really threatened about how your character will perform.
    Yes, casters have obviously been and are continuing to be nerfed on an ongoing basis. So you are saying a Sorc should take the extra 4 ability points they would normally put on STR or DEX into INT so they can get an extra 2 spell power? Right. Wizards can easily get a standing +20-25 INT modifier. I'd like to see your build that get a Sorc INT modifier anywhere close to that.

    The question I have for you is why should DDO create a skill that provides far more nuking spell power to Wizards than Sorcs?

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    Yes, casters have obviously been and are continuing to be nerfed on an ongoing basis. So you are saying a Sorc should take the extra 4 ability points they would normally put on STR or DEX into INT so they can get an extra 2 spell power? Right. Wizards can easily get a standing +20-25 INT modifier. I'd like to see your build that get a Sorc INT modifier anywhere close to that.

    The question I have for you is why should DDO create a skill that provides far more nuking spell power to Wizards than Sorcs?
    I would absolutely spend stat points in INT over STR or DEX if I needed it to simply add the skills for the benefit. STR and DEX aren't doing me much good on a sorc anyway. CHA and CON ftw.

    The "far more nuking spell power" should end up 20ish based on INT score, maybe, and is easily correctable in a variety of ways. I'm looking forward to the next preview now.

    Edit: using your numbers it's only 10-12 more spell power.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    Yes, casters have obviously been and are continuing to be nerfed on an ongoing basis. So you are saying a Sorc should take the extra 4 ability points they would normally put on STR or DEX into INT so they can get an extra 2 spell power? Right. Wizards can easily get a standing +20-25 INT modifier. I'd like to see your build that get a Sorc INT modifier anywhere close to that.

    The question I have for you is why should DDO create a skill that provides far more nuking spell power to Wizards than Sorcs?
    Hi, it's me.

    I can not directly address your question, because I have not seen the skill preview. How does +20 modifier translate to spellpower?
    Also, your response does not really get to the heart of the matter of what I was saying in the end. It seems like the objection you have is more to do with a class balance issue, than a new skill issue. Why are you not calling for nerfs to wizards' damage, or calling for sorcerers' damage to be appropriately higher? In essence, sorcerers should have the advantage in the over-all amount of damage which is what should be the focus; a new skill just seems like something nice they can have to compliment their arsenal.
    To your other question, if I only changed some gear slotting and not my base ability scores, I could get at least 20 Int. So possibly 24 if I changed some ability scores OR ate a +5 tome for at least one other stat. Personally, this would not be too inconvenient because I have +4 tomes on almost everything, and I dont need to have Str at all to play how I want. But again, if 24 translated to very little compared to an Int-based character, that would still be a class balancing issue not a new-skill-issue.

    As far as class balancing, my suggestion is to change the critical multipliers for sorcerers and wizards or significantly raise them for sorcerers. Wizards' effectiveness should be based on their spell DC and the variety of spells they can learn, so nerfing their critical or over-all damage would solve this issue that has little to do with the addition of a new skill.

    On a related issue, why is no one complaining that the new spellpower addition to the Heal skill is "ill conceived" because it's based on wisdom? Those of us that are not plugged into Heal scrolls and prefer something like Rejuvenation would find this to be a nice addition as well.

    I would absolutely spend stat points in INT over STR or DEX if I needed it to simply add the skills for the benefit. STR and DEX aren't doing me much good on a sorc anyway. CHA and CON ftw.

    The "far more nuking spell power" should end up 20ish based on INT score, maybe, and is easily correctable in a variety of ways. I'm looking forward to the next preview now.
    ^ this.
    Last edited by soulaeon; 06-08-2013 at 01:20 PM.

  11. #31
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    Logically Spellcraft being related in Int makes sense, as spellcraft is the skill of understanding and applying magical theory to improve ones casting which fits in with being Int based. Practically however its a nerf to non Int based casters, which is particularly galling in the case of Sorcs and FvS, classes whose casting revolve around nuking, and lorewise are said to cast intuitively.

    The solutions put forward so far are that the higher of INT/WIS/CHR be counted towards spellcraft instead of just INT, or that the Spellcraft be dropped as a skill and casters all get +1 spellpower per level from their Arcane Lore or equivalent feat. I think the latter is a straight example of the way many just want to be given free stuff, and never have to make actual tradeoffs in how they build their character. The former combines an element of this with a desire to relate Spellcraft to stats that don't make sense for it.

    My suggestion is that Sorcs and FvS be granted a free feat a character creation that adds their charisma modifier to their spellpower in addition to any spellpower they get from INT / ranks in spellcraft.

    This would put Sorcs/FvS on an even footing with Wizards for free, with the option to push their spellpower even higher by finding space in their build for more INT / ranks in spellcraft. The same would apply for the FvS. Additionally people playing an FvS would now have a real choice between pushing Charisma or Wisdom as their main stat. At the moment Charisma only gives a few extra spellpoints (which the SP rich FvS can make do without), whereas Wisdom gives DCs, and in the new system higher positive spellpower (via heal skill) to boot making Wisdom the obvious choice for a caster FvS (In contrast to PnP where the value of higher DCs must be carefully weighed against having more spells per day). My suggestion would move this more towards a competitive choice.

    For Clerics/Druids i would suggest adding an enhancement to whichever tree is most focused on offensive casting which lets them use their wisdom modifier for their spellcraft stat.

    Paladins should probably get an enhancement adding their Charisma modifier to their positive energy spellpower.

  12. #32
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    Mmm, so much complaining. Why not make it real simple and make Spellcraft not based on any stat and you only get bonuses for any ranks you put into it. Yeah, equality!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadion View Post
    Logically Spellcraft being related in Int makes sense, as spellcraft is the skill of understanding and applying magical theory to improve ones casting which fits in with being Int based. Practically however its a nerf to non Int based casters, which is particularly galling in the case of Sorcs and FvS, classes whose casting revolve around nuking, and lorewise are said to cast intuitively.
    .
    A "nerf" is something the developers to do target your character. A bonus is something they add to the game that your character is under no obligation to take, and will not effect your character at all otherwise. Now that we got that out of the way...
    Calling the addition of a new skill a "nerf" to non Int classes is like saying the UMD skill is a nerf to non Cha characters. Would you agree? And yet, everyone can spend points into this skill, and everyone can acquire more Cha if they need to. There's always a way to get what you want.
    So, how is this new skill going to impair your gaming experience? I assume you will not be taking it.

  14. #34
    Community Member Dawnsfire's Avatar
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    I hate to hop in here but I have a question. I have followed the discussions and arguments about this so far. It has lead me to wonder:

    Have the Devs ever explained why it is being done this way?

    Are they meaning to nerf Sorcs?

    Is it a way to buff Wizards since spell DC in GiantHold ( and probably the expansion) is so off kilter?

    Did one of your Sorcs kill a Dev's Wizard in the PvP pits one day?

    Just curious. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnsfire View Post
    I hate to hop in here but I have a question. I have followed the discussions and arguments about this so far. It has lead me to wonder:

    Have the Devs ever explained why it is being done this way?

    Are they meaning to nerf Sorcs?

    Is it a way to buff Wizards since spell DC in GiantHold ( and probably the expansion) is so off kilter?

    Did one of your Sorcs kill a Dev's Wizard in the PvP pits one day?

    Just curious. . .
    What you are saying, is that this new skill would give you more spellpower if you had more points in Int and spent skill points there. But you do not want to do any of those things, and yet wizards will get more spellpower by not doing anything at all. So you believe that your character is being subjugated due to the fact that you do not like it?
    I am also curious.

    Why would are people reading into this new skill as a personal affront, rather than complaining about actual class changes that will be made? As I am sure some are, already.

  16. #36
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    (troll mode)
    So you're complaining about Spellcraft being int based.
    Let me know, how many skill points does, say, a sorcerer have? 2 plus int.
    And how much starting int? Probably 10 for concentration and UMD, or 12 for con, UMD and diplo, or more but...
    The point is, it's a new skill and you're tight on skill points because of a careful planning on your build.
    So what a sorcerer can do? Simple, he raises his intelligence by 2, gaining another point in spellcraft thanks to the higher mod.
    Don't you see the profit?
    (/troll mode)

    Being serious, the spellcraft skill should be int based, but it's unfair as it's planned.
    Maybe they could simply give us +1 saves against spells for every 5 points spent in spellcraft (much like in Neverwinter Nights 2), making it valuable for non casters, too.
    They should do the same for tumble, giving us +1 ac for every 10 points spent (again, like in nwn2).

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    Being serious, the spellcraft skill should be int based, but it's unfair as it's planned.
    Maybe they could simply give us +1 saves against spells for every 5 points spent in spellcraft (much like in Neverwinter Nights 2), making it valuable for non casters, too.
    They should do the same for tumble, giving us +1 ac for every 10 points spent (again, like in nwn2).
    It would make sense that knowledge of the arcane automatically includes protection against it to some degree, so that is a good idea. This would either have to be a circumstance bonus or a new source-type bonus. Or rather than saves, why not spell resistance?
    Tumble also makes sense, but consider that it is based on an ability score that already adds to armor class. I could go either way on that. AC is already mostly useless unless you have a lot, and I would hate to encourage the developers to continue giving us crappy little AC boosts that do nothing after level 18. Perhaps dodge chance, instead.

  18. #38
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulaeon View Post
    It would make sense that knowledge of the arcane automatically includes protection against it to some degree, so that is a good idea. This would either have to be a circumstance bonus or a new source-type bonus. Or rather than saves, why not spell resistance?
    Tumble also makes sense, but consider that it is based on an ability score that already adds to armor class. I could go either way on that. AC is already mostly useless unless you have a lot, and I would hate to encourage the developers to continue giving us crappy little AC boosts that do nothing after level 18. Perhaps dodge chance, instead.
    Sure thing, in this game 2 ac is nothing, while +4 saves would be too much (if so they could give +1 per 10 points spent instead).
    NwN2 was differently balanced, but in this case ddo devs could take inspiration from it.
    Your idea of SR is really good, but what about drows and monks already having it?
    As for tumble, it wouldn't count on what ability it's based on, i'm speaking about points spent (pretty much like perform). It would make a non-overpowered passive use of the skill.
    Dodge chance is also really viable, your ideas are complementary with mines
    Last edited by mezzorco; 06-21-2013 at 11:02 AM.

  19. #39
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    I'd say either make concentration increase Universal Spellpower or increase the amount of spellpower that the Caster trees grant...either way remove spellcraft and return perform, heal and repair to the way they were before...or better yet actually use one of the several amazing suggestion for how to improve heal and repair to be useful (see: NOT mandatory)

    Alternatively a casters main stat could increase spellpower (ie. A Sorc with 31 Cha would get an Increase of 31 Universal Spellpower)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  20. #40
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakalakadaka View Post
    Why for the love of cheese make this an INT based skill?

    [...]

    In the new enhancement process you have multi-choice options already implemented so why not use this mechanic to enable the player to decide which stat they want buffing their spell power? This gives multi-class characters the freedom they want to push their spell power however they wish.

    Because some Dev in Charge of the Enhancement Crash wanted us ( those that don't play wizards ) to make Tough Choices, because he loves Tough Choices.
    But as said dev probably don't play the game without God Mode On he had no idea of what he was doing, and anyway he wants to have his child ( even if it's a real abortion ) in game as he made it.
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