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  1. #1
    Community Member Bakalakadaka's Avatar
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    Default Spellcraft - Why INT?

    Why for the love of cheese make this an INT based skill? You are basically saying that only Wizards and Artificers need apply as all the high WIS/CHA based classes get nothing from their stats.

    Instead of making it a skill with a specific stat why not either:
    - base the bonus on the primary stat of the higher caster level of the character; or (better yet)
    - make it a free enhancement where the player gets to choose themselves which stat is used as the benefit.

    In the new enhancement process you have multi-choice options already implemented so why not use this mechanic to enable the player to decide which stat they want buffing their spell power? This gives multi-class characters the freedom they want to push their spell power however they wish.

    To me this is a no brainer.

    It is bad enough that the new enhancement UI means that anytime you want to add a new enhancement or prestige you have to redo the whole thing, but don't go nerfing people as well by forcing them to take stats they don't need. Listen to your players this time and do it right )or at least better) instead of forcing in yet another broken change and then spending years fixing it (like the ridiculous cosmetic system and the still painful auction house).

  2. #2

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    It's because Spellcraft is an int skill in PnP.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley_Nicholas View Post
    It's because Spellcraft is an int skill in PnP.
    And what does Spellcraft do in PnP again?
    Quote Originally Posted by gphysalis View Post
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  4. #4
    Community Member Bakalakadaka's Avatar
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    And what does PnP have to do with DDO anymore anyway? It got left behind a long time ago. May have been an excuse (i.e. poor reason) back when it launch but this isn't D&D anymore - its DDO.

    Understand your comment, but it is a poor reason if that is Turbine's justification - especially given that PnP Spellcraft is all about identifying active spells and has nothing to do with the DDO spell power mechanic.
    Last edited by Bakalakadaka; 04-19-2013 at 03:18 AM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel666 View Post
    And what does Spellcraft do in PnP again?
    Not what it does in DDO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakalakadaka View Post
    And what does PnP have to do with DDO anymore anyway? It got left behind a long time ago. May have been an excuse (i.e. poor reason) back when it launch but this isn't D&D anymore - its DDO.

    Understand your comment, but it is a poor reason if that is Turbine's justification - especially given that PnP Spellcraft is all about identifying active spells and has nothing to do with the DDO spell power mechanic.
    Not saying it's a good decision. It's clearly a problematic one. But it's also clearly Turbine's reasoning.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Turbine wants underused skills (as heal/repair) become more useful. Turbine also wants that some classes that have many class skills in pnp (like wizards, with 10 knowledge skills and spellcraft) have choices. Wizards have no class options in DDO. The problem is that the class skills for wizards in pnp are useful outside of combat, and DDO is combat only. So they have tried to convert spellcraft in a combat skill. Something that the rules have never intended in pnp, of course. But DDO is different.

    But is absurd that Perform control non-bardic magic, or Heal pale master spells, etc. If they go for this route, they need create two new skills: Spellcraft (int/car) for arcane spells, Spiritual focus (sab) for divine spells and Perform for bard spells. Done. This would be fluff-wise. If Perform control divine spells (or sorcerer/wizard/artificer spells) would be a joke xD.

    Heal and Repair are not useful in a MMO. Things go faster in a MMO than in pnp. They need be eliminated, or convert in one active boost as level 1 druid spell Lesser vigor (better as high is the skill) These skills shouldn’t control spells.

    And they need think in the multiclass problem. Multiclass builds need get some skills from their classes as class skills for all levels (some, NOT all). In pnp prestige classes help with skills in multiclass. DDO, no.

    Too, in DDO there are many skills more useful than in pnp, where they are a rare luxury for no-specialist characters. UMD is much more necessary in an MMO that pnp, for example. So many people spend skill points in cross class skills than in pnp are used only for specialists. And skills points are always few.

    And then we know than in DDO we need very high abilities to be efficient in our profession. It is difficult for many classes have intelligence for all the skills they need. 2 + int skill points are few. They are few even in pnp where people don't invest in cross class skills.

    A MMO works differently to pnp. Turbine's intention is good and praiseworthy. But it has many ramifications. It’s complicated. They should think through all this before making changes. If they choose this route other things should change too.

    English is not my native language. I hope you understand my post.
    Last edited by Iriale; 04-19-2013 at 04:58 AM.

  7. #7
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    Why not simply remove Spellcraft and have the +1% per level based off Arcane Lore that we get for free with each caster level?

    Gives the small incremental power bump per level and doesn't involve wasting Skill points that INT based classes don't have the luxury of splashing about.

    EDIT: Or make Spellcraft the casting device booster (+1 DC, +5% effectiveness) on devices that cast arcane spells if you really want to keep it.
    Last edited by Deadlock; 04-19-2013 at 05:04 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Mark2422's Avatar
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    I personally do not see a problem with it being Int based. Bottom line for me (As a caster Druid) is that it is going to give me 20-40 more spell power even without me being int based. Thats 20-40 more than I am getting from skills on live right now.

    I can however see a potential imbalance with Wiz and Sorc. Wiz are going to get a greater elemental spell power boost from spellcraft compared to a Sorc. This is kind of silly when you consider that Wizards are more DC based and Sorcs are the DPS. Also Wiz (palemaster) is more Neg spell power where Sorc is the Elemental spell power. In reality it should be the sorc receiving the extra boost from spellcraft as it better suits them. Maybe this skill should not have been called spellcraft because of the problems it seems to cause in relating it to its PnP counterpart.
    Last edited by Mark2422; 04-19-2013 at 08:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark2422 View Post
    I personally do not see a problem with it being Int based. Bottom line for me (As a caster Druid) is that it is going to give me 20-40 more spell power even without me being int based. Thats 20-40 more than I am getting from skills on live right now.
    IT IS NOT.

    People should stop spreading FALSE INFORMATION.

    On live, you can get 100 Spell power from enhancements. End of the story.
    On lama, you can get up to 56 from Enhancements with well 73 (SEVENTY THREE) points in the class trees and ONLY 7 IN THE RACIAL ONE.

    Spellcraft adds a max of 43 if you really are maxing Int after CHA and CON for a total of 99 (NINETY NINE) Spell power.

    100 > 99, that in most cases will be ~90 (only a crazy would spend all the 80 points in the Class trees).

    100 > 90.


    Spellcraft is just a stupid skill designed to nerf the Cha-based classes like Sorcerers. So it won't be, it won't result, it IS NOT A PLUS FROM LIVE.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    On live, you can get 100 Spell power from enhancements. End of the story.
    Druids get 65.

  11. #11
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    You may be able to use your CHR to sleep with your teacher and get a piece of paper saying you have a high INT, but when you're facing a test where you have to actually show the work, you need the INT.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    You may be able to use your CHR to sleep with your teacher and get a piece of paper saying you have a high INT, but when you're facing a test where you have to actually show the work, you need the INT.
    Such a weak excuse.

    Sorcerers don't need INT to use magic.

    "Sorcerers are arcane spellcasters who manipulate magic energy with imagination and talent rather than studious discipline. They have no books, no mentors, no theories—just raw power that they direct at will".

    Either give us another CHA Based skill or make Spellcraft Cha/Int/Wis based. Sorcerers don't need to study to learn magic, so they don't need Int to increase their Spellpower in DDO. And when I say Sorcerers, I mean all the classes that aren't based on Int.

    It's a skill bad implemented, end of the story.

  13. #13
    Community Member Mark2422's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    IT IS NOT.

    People should stop spreading FALSE INFORMATION.

    On live, you can get 100 Spell power from enhancements. End of the story.
    On lama, you can get up to 56 from Enhancements with well 73 (SEVENTY THREE) points in the class trees and ONLY 7 IN THE RACIAL ONE.

    Spellcraft adds a max of 43 if you really are maxing Int after CHA and CON for a total of 99 (NINETY NINE) Spell power.

    100 > 99, that in most cases will be ~90 (only a crazy would spend all the 80 points in the Class trees).

    100 > 90.


    Spellcraft is just a stupid skill designed to nerf the Cha-based classes like Sorcerers. So it won't be, it won't result, it IS NOT A PLUS FROM LIVE.
    Oh how I have waited weeks to reply to this!

    Maybe you should take your own advice. I clearly stated in my post that I was talking from a Druid perspective. And from that perspective, we don't get 100 as you said. We get 65 on live now. In the new system we happily pull more than 65 from our caster tree, to match what we are currently getting from enhancements. So my statement stands. Anything we gain from spellcraft is a bonus.

    Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start branding my information as false because now you made yourself look silly...
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  14. #14
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark2422 View Post
    Oh how I have waited weeks to reply to this!

    Maybe you should take your own advice. I clearly stated in my post that I was talking from a Druid perspective. And from that perspective, we don't get 100 as you said. We get 65 on live now. In the new system we happily pull more than 65 from our caster tree, to match what we are currently getting from enhancements. So my statement stands. Anything we gain from spellcraft is a bonus.

    Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start branding my information as false because now you made yourself look silly...
    Or maybe you should have also read some other topic where, quote, a Dev said "Spellcraft skill will NOT be put in the game at the same time as Enhancement pass".

    Also, you are talking just from a Druid perspective? That's both stupid AND egoist. Wizards are getting less, Sorcerers are getting less. Honestly, I don't know how much the other classes are getting on live at the moment. The only fact I know is: Spellcraft will not be an addiction, also because, again, it will not be put on live at the same time as the pass

    Also, unless you are spending more than 65 points in one tree (and I can't see that happening) ignoring the Racial tree + Nature's Warrior tree, then you will face also a loss of Spell power when this goes live. Now please, tell me that you will be doing it

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Or maybe you should have also read some other topic where, quote, a Dev said "Spellcraft skill will NOT be put in the game at the same time as Enhancement pass".

    Also, you are talking just from a Druid perspective? That's both stupid AND egoist. Wizards are getting less, Sorcerers are getting less. Honestly, I don't know how much the other classes are getting on live at the moment. The only fact I know is: Spellcraft will not be an addiction, also because, again, it will not be put on live at the same time as the pass

    Also, unless you are spending more than 65 points in one tree (and I can't see that happening) ignoring the Racial tree + Nature's Warrior tree, then you will face also a loss of Spell power when this goes live. Now please, tell me that you will be doing it
    My Wizard is getting more, not less. .75 universal or 1.5 negative per AP spent in PM and 1 per AP spent in AM plus cross class healing is still over 100 negative spell power. The same set up for all 4 energy types is +92 with just the skill bonus from GH before adding any other skill bonuses or INT bonus.

    Wizards and Artificers are INT based and have the skill points to spare. Druids, Clerics, and FvS's were never at 100 spell power in their enhancements in the first place, so making adjustments to fit healing and spellcraft in does provide the opportunity for higher spell power than they currently have whether it's INT bonus or not on spellcraft.

    Sorcs kind of take a kick in the teeth on it because they can get spell power up but only in their chosen elements (not necessarily bad but very restrictive and I can see a lot of players not liking that) unless they multiclass another caster splash in for a tree that provides more spell power. Even then it's an easy +32 spell power from spell craft for anyone just capping ranks and using GH. That's more an issue with the sorc trees than an issue with an INT based skill.

    I think the skills have too much emphasis and the trees not enough but the ability to get the spell power up to where it is on live is available in the system, and higher for the most part.

    Your comment on when the skill is going live is actually irrelevant. The thread is about the skill and how it works, and the person whom you posted refuted numbers correctly. It's not false information to state we can get higher spell power on lamma than live with the skills in place.

    It really just looks like some people want a bonus they see someone else getting and feel entitled to the same bonus. That's the only difference INT actually makes. A person could simply use ranks instead of bonus or cap it like jump so that some classes get there faster but they all end in the same spot, and that corrects the stat based imbalance.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 05-01-2013 at 07:39 PM.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Mark2422's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Or maybe you should have also read some other topic where, quote, a Dev said "Spellcraft skill will NOT be put in the game at the same time as Enhancement pass".

    Also, you are talking just from a Druid perspective? That's both stupid AND egoist. Wizards are getting less, Sorcerers are getting less. Honestly, I don't know how much the other classes are getting on live at the moment. The only fact I know is: Spellcraft will not be an addiction, also because, again, it will not be put on live at the same time as the pass

    Also, unless you are spending more than 65 points in one tree (and I can't see that happening) ignoring the Racial tree + Nature's Warrior tree, then you will face also a loss of Spell power when this goes live. Now please, tell me that you will be doing it
    Well you just made yourself look as silly as Tid12...

    As Aashrym said, whether it goes live at the same time as the new enhancements does not matter. I was giving an honest analysis on how spellcraft was on Lam from a druids perspective. That is what I am supposed to do as a Lam tester. Giving my view, purely from a druids perspective is not "stupid". I am a dedicated druid player who very rarely plays alts. So the druid is the only perspective I felt qualified to give a fair opinion from.

    As for you making assumptions about me and how I will spend my points on my build. Not only are you wrong, but you have made yourself look rather silly by even trying to guess how someone would spend their points. The truth is IF (a big if since its only alpha) the enhancements went live as they are now, as a pure caster I would spend atleast 70 points in one tree since there was nothing of vaule in Natures Warrior and only + 1 wisdom would help my build in the racial tree's.

    The problem here is that you and Tid12 have made sweeping generalisations and assumptions about classes, builds and players that you obviously have very little information about. Maybe you should both try doing what I did initialy and limit your view and opinion to the things you actually do know about...
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    You may be able to use your CHR to sleep with your teacher and get a piece of paper saying you have a high INT, but when you're facing a test where you have to actually show the work, you need the INT.
    If your spells and entire way of "knowing" magic is through charisma, then an int-based skill won't help you. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to tell sorcs "sure, everything about your magic is charisma based, but to really get it, you're just going to have to read lots and train an int based skill."

    The whole point of separating wizards from sorcerers is lost if an int-based spellcraft boosts spellpower.

  18. #18
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    My Wizard is getting more, not less. .75 universal or 1.5 negative per AP spent in PM and 1 per AP spent in AM plus cross class healing is still over 100 negative spell power. The same set up for all 4 energy types is +92 with just the skill bonus from GH before adding any other skill bonuses or INT bonus.

    Wizards and Artificers are INT based and have the skill points to spare. Druids, Clerics, and FvS's were never at 100 spell power in their enhancements in the first place, so making adjustments to fit healing and spellcraft in does provide the opportunity for higher spell power than they currently have whether it's INT bonus or not on spellcraft.

    Sorcs kind of take a kick in the teeth on it because they can get spell power up but only in their chosen elements (not necessarily bad but very restrictive and I can see a lot of players not liking that) unless they multiclass another caster splash in for a tree that provides more spell power. Even then it's an easy +32 spell power from spell craft for anyone just capping ranks and using GH. That's more an issue with the sorc trees than an issue with an INT based skill.

    I think the skills have too much emphasis and the trees not enough but the ability to get the spell power up to where it is on live is available in the system, and higher for the most part.

    Your comment on when the skill is going live is actually irrelevant. The thread is about the skill and how it works, and the person whom you posted refuted numbers correctly. It's not false information to state we can get higher spell power on lamma than live with the skills in place.

    It really just looks like some people want a bonus they see someone else getting and feel entitled to the same bonus. That's the only difference INT actually makes. A person could simply use ranks instead of bonus or cap it like jump so that some classes get there faster but they all end in the same spot, and that corrects the stat based imbalance.
    You are getting more Negative Spell power, yeah..but overall less Spell power, that is the point. Without Spellcraft, your other spellpowers are taking a hit. That's the whole point. Even if you spend the whole 80 points in the AM tree, that's 80 USP while now, on Live, you can get 100 to the elements that you care, even all of them if you wanted.

    When the skill is going live is actually a foundamental point of the whole discussion. As I said above, without Spellcraft, we are looking at a nerf. If spellcraft will be added in 2 years from now, your wizard will be nerfed for 2 years regarding Spellpower. You see the point now?

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    You are getting more Negative Spell power, yeah..but overall less Spell power, that is the point. Without Spellcraft, your other spellpowers are taking a hit. That's the whole point. Even if you spend the whole 80 points in the AM tree, that's 80 USP while now, on Live, you can get 100 to the elements that you care, even all of them if you wanted.

    When the skill is going live is actually a foundamental point of the whole discussion. As I said above, without Spellcraft, we are looking at a nerf. If spellcraft will be added in 2 years from now, your wizard will be nerfed for 2 years regarding Spellpower. You see the point now?
    That's still pretty pointless in a discussion on how the skill actually works. I also doubt we'll be waiting for 2 years to implement the skill. Any delays creating a nerf just gets back to my point that the skills carry too much spell power while the enhancements don't carry enough.

    As far as overall class impact if we do choose to ignore spell power...

    Druid casters can still have close to the 65 they have now if they spend heavily in season's herald and exceed what they have now in positive. They have the same issue as bards where the melee tree doesn't provide spell power and should provide something. Leaving spellcraft out doesn't remove the heal skill from the game. Including spellcraft is a clear increase for druids.

    Cleric casters never had much for spell power enhancements. They are taking a hit to smiting lines and light, gaining for several spells including blade barrier, and gaining for positive and negative. Including spellcraft is a clear increase for clerics.

    FvS's are similar to clerics. They are losing out a bit on the smiting lines and light, but gaining on other lines including blade barrier, and gaining in positive and negative. Including spellcraft is a clear increase for FvS's.

    Bards melee tree doesn't have any spell power and that's not great for melee bards. Caster bards are gaining every area including the 10 for the capstone and 40+ in the spellsinger tree. Positive has less in the tree but the heal skill brings it back up over the 80 currently available on live. Sonic has a large increase with perform and goes well over 100 compared to the 80 on live. (EDIT: The ironic thing about this they don't actually have any spells to take advantage of the spell power; and positive spell power, the only kind typical bards might make significant use of is achieved by cross classing and also a relative loss compared to other healers. Most of the spell power lines don't do them any good until epic destinies.)

    Artificers need to split down the trees for spell power to get the battle engineer innates and spell power from arcanotech to get in the 85-90 range including arcane engine. This is close to a slight nerf, except they get a bonus to positive they never had before (and affects the grenades), and fill out all their energy/force lines instead of 1 or 2, and have a capstone bonus to spellcraft that we are choosing to ignore for now. Without spellcraft they are losing about 10 spell power to a couple of energy lines, gaining a lot of spell power to the remaining energy lines, gaining spell power for their healing grenades, and have a bonus we are not counting in the capstone. Once we start counting spellcraft they will have exceeded spell power across the board as in INT based caster with a capstone bonus. Those are small losses for significant gains.

    Wizards are gaining in negative spell power regardless of spellcraft for PM's. They are taking a hit in the AM tree without spell craft as they drop to about 60 in various lines, 1 or 2 of which is a cut, the others are a gain. This is a nerf in elemental lines while promoting spell swapping and a benefit in other areas. The Repair gives them a bonus above what they have now but that's rather niche. In the meantime, there are more DC bonuses available. Self healing undead drow enchanters are looking better these days so I have a hard time calling the changes for wizard a nerf so much as one dimensional if we choose to ignore spellcraft. Once we start including spellcraft wizards also exceed what they have now all around.

    The people who are really taking the hit are melee focused bards, melee focused druids, paladins, rangers, and sorcerers. Self healing melee seem to have been left behind and that has nothing to do with spellcraft, when it's coming in, or the fact it's INT based. The heal skill does not make up for the limited positive spell power for those classes.

    Sorcerers are still looking at about 50 spell power depending on what is spent in other trees and gains 30 in his chosen element tree. This is actually more similar to live where 1 or 2 energy lines have any investment and without spellcraft does end up with less total spell power available in the primary elemental line. This isn't casters in general, this is one caster in particular. Once he adds in spell craft he's also over 100 in 2 energy lines the way things are.

    Most casters are better off in more areas under the new system even without spellcraft, and definitely better in most areas with spellcraft. There are actually very few casters who can't build with spell power in mind although some are limited in the direction taken. There was also an across the board DC bonus for casters in the trees with more caster stat bonuses and in several cases actual DC bonuses. It's some of the melee builds who take the hit on self healing, and I think the relative adjustments favor sorcerers poorly

    The only point in discussing INT as relevant is because wizards and artificers obviously make out like bandits on the synergy between caster stat and spell power boosting stat.

    As far as the whole...

    "People should stop spreading FALSE INFORMATION.

    On live, you can get 100 Spell power from enhancements. End of the story.
    On lama, you can get up to 56 from Enhancements with well 73 (SEVENTY THREE) points in the class trees and ONLY 7 IN THE RACIAL ONE.

    Spellcraft adds a max of 43 if you really are maxing Int after CHA and CON for a total of 99 (NINETY NINE) Spell power.

    100 > 99, that in most cases will be ~90 (only a crazy would spend all the 80 points in the Class trees).

    100 > 90.


    Spellcraft is just a stupid skill designed to nerf the Cha-based classes like Sorcerers. So it won't be, it won't result, it IS NOT A PLUS FROM LIVE."

    ...that started this line of discussion, it's clearly possible to exceed the spell power we have on live with spellcraft whether it's INT or not. 50 from the sorc tree, 30 from the innates, 32 from the skill before INT bonus. An air savant on live with 100 spell power in electric and 100 spell power in cold shows up on lamma with 112+ electric and 102+ cold spell power. The argument has nothing to do with a nerf; it has to do with a buff to 2 other classes. That's why when it does hit live isn't relevant; the discussion is on the difference INT makes to the skill when it is active.

    If spellcraft doesn't go live and this system does as is it'll suck being a sorc, other classes will need to adjust but will be fine. It's also an important distinction that spell power is acquired more slowly on the new system on lamma compared to live, even if the potential does exist to exceed current spell power totals.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 05-03-2013 at 12:49 AM.
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  20. #20
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    I agree that it needs to work from primary casting stat or highest relevant stat for multi classes.

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