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  1. #1
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    Default Do Hard and Elite just add one level each?

    A RL friend of mine has always told me that Hard makes it one level harder than Normal, and Elite is 2 levels harder than Normal. Is this really how it works?

    I usually do not do Elite, because of traps or enemy saves usually. But because I want the L17 Ivy Wraps for my monk so badly I took my L22 Arti to the appropriate quest (Druid's Curse maybe?) and gave it a try. Its a L17 quest on Heroic Normal. So, in theory, if I bump it to Heroic Elite, making it level 19? I figure no problem, since I'm level 22 anyway.

    WOW. Big difference. Right from the start I was surrounded by several CR 26 Orange Wood Woads. Even the non-orange enemies seemed to be CR 22-24. Is this right if the quest level is only supposed to be 19 on Elite? It just seemed to me that the game was adding a lot more than 2 levels to the enemies. I finally got to the Hag with the chest, who killed my hireling but my doggie and I barely survived. No wraps in the chest, and I dropped. I figured there was no way I could kill the final boss if just the optional was so hard.

    So how many levels does Elite really add to the enemies? It seems to be a lot more than just + 2 levels.

    Thanks for your help.

  2. #2
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    Put it this way. Do you know what the CR of those Wood Woads is on Epic Elite?

    54.

    The highest you can be is 25.

    So they're 29 levels higher.
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  3. #3
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    Elite counts as 2 levels above, but thank god the difficulty isnt linear..... so we can have some challenge to face the several easy buttons!

    even in elite this game is still easier than dnd pnp!

  4. #4
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    If this is the case then it sure seems like the XP handed out on Elite is disproportional to the challenge. In this case I was fighting enemies at my level or even 4+ levels higher, but I was penalized on XP for running a quest that, even on elite, was three levels below mine?

    How does this make sense?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    How does this make sense?
    My duo partner in-game and I have a phrase that we use whenever we run across things like this. It seems appropriate under the circumstances.

    "Because Turbine..."
    Quote Originally Posted by gphysalis View Post
    Average man learns from his mistakes
    Foolish man does not learn from his mistakes
    Wise man learns from other's mistakes

  6. #6
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Elite is two levels above normal. The CR's of things inside is a different math.

  7. #7
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    If this is the case then it sure seems like the XP handed out on Elite is disproportional to the challenge. In this case I was fighting enemies at my level or even 4+ levels higher, but I was penalized on XP for running a quest that, even on elite, was three levels below mine?

    How does this make sense?
    +80% first time elite bonus
    +40% first time hard bonus

    levels things out on the XP front (and that bonus is much higher if you are running bravery bonus and streak at hard/elite)

  8. #8
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    This question comes up from time to time and the answer to the question is, "Yeah, no, well, sort of."

    The quest level is, theoretically, increased by 1 from normal to hard -- and by 1 again from hard to elite. But, in practice this is not an accurate picture of what happens.

    As others have observed, while the "dungeon" levels show as 1 or 2 higher than the normal setting but the actual CR of the mobs jumps as much as 25 to 50 percent. A CR18 mob on normal may be CR22 on hard and CR27 on elite. Considering that the normal setting for a dungeon roughly describes the average CR rating of typical mobs (not named or special mobs, just the ordinary ones), this can have a huge impact when you get to red named and higher bosses.

    As a general rule of thumb I treat hard difficulty as 3 to 5 levels higher than normal. The same jump applies to elite difficulty. That seems to work out as a rough estimate of challenge level for me.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    A RL friend of mine has always told me that Hard makes it one level harder than Normal, and Elite is 2 levels harder than Normal. Is this really how it works?
    This is how the change in difficulty effects the quest level, for XP and loot purposes. It is in no way an accurate reflection of the difficulty of it.

    There is no 'hard and fast' way to estimate the difficulty, because many times the quest changes in very important ways, or the foes gain important powers that they do not have on Normal or Hard. But the kind of rule of thumb is that going from Normal to Hard makes it roughly equivalent to a quest two or three levels higher, on Normal. The Hard to Elite transition, however, can be a much larger impact, especially in quests like In the Flesh where you start having beholders pop up where they were not before.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    A RL friend of mine has always told me that Hard makes it one level harder than Normal, and Elite is 2 levels harder than Normal. Is this really how it works?

    I usually do not do Elite, because of traps or enemy saves usually. But because I want the L17 Ivy Wraps for my monk so badly I took my L22 Arti to the appropriate quest (Druid's Curse maybe?) and gave it a try. Its a L17 quest on Heroic Normal. So, in theory, if I bump it to Heroic Elite, making it level 19? I figure no problem, since I'm level 22 anyway.

    WOW. Big difference. Right from the start I was surrounded by several CR 26 Orange Wood Woads. Even the non-orange enemies seemed to be CR 22-24. Is this right if the quest level is only supposed to be 19 on Elite? It just seemed to me that the game was adding a lot more than 2 levels to the enemies. I finally got to the Hag with the chest, who killed my hireling but my doggie and I barely survived. No wraps in the chest, and I dropped. I figured there was no way I could kill the final boss if just the optional was so hard.

    So how many levels does Elite really add to the enemies? It seems to be a lot more than just + 2 levels.

    Thanks for your help.
    He lied to you. Hard/Elite difficulties add +1/+2 to quest level for purposes of XP awarded. Quest level has no relation to the CR of mobs within - CITW on normal has much lower CR mobs than elite death undone, for example.
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  11. #11
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    It doesn't increase monster levels by 2, but quest levels. So a level 17 quest on normal becomes level 19 quest on Elite. In theory, at least. It's a very different animal in practice, jumping somewhere between 4 (for Heroic quests) and 8 (for Epic quests) levels in difficulty, due to things like saves, mob damage, trap damage and mob HP

  12. #12
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Here's the way you need to think about the difficulty settings:

    1. Casual
    2.
    3. Normal
    4.
    5. Hard
    6.
    7.
    8.
    9.
    10. Elites

    So any quest on casual through hard you will see a pretty steady progression of difficutly.
    Once you make that jump to elite, It's easily twice as difficult as hard.

    This is true of every quest/raid that has multiple difficulty settings.
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  13. #13
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    If this is the case then it sure seems like the XP handed out on Elite is disproportional to the challenge. In this case I was fighting enemies at my level or even 4+ levels higher, but I was penalized on XP for running a quest that, even on elite, was three levels below mine?
    The whole point to Elites - and Elite-streaking - is to provide a serious challenge to characters at that level range. [Of course, some people insist EEs are "still too easy," but that's an argument for another thread...] It doesn't scale linearly in terms of difficulty; don't expect level 17 Elite quests to be on par with level 19 Normal quests. Indeed, I would say high-lvl heroic Elites are a lot tougher than epic Normals and some Hards. The first time you start running elites, it can be a real eye-opener...

  14. #14
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    Like someone else said CR's are not linear.....add into that the fact there is little to no scaling on Elite.......and yeah....you're in for a rude awakening........it can be fun.......but if your soloi'ing elite even at a level or two above......heck even more than that it can be very challenging or just outright difficult. Be well stocked and bring a hireling that can rez you.....or if your wealthy get some rez cakes......or if you don't mind re-entering you can do that to.

    Last edited by vVvAiaynAvVv; 04-18-2013 at 07:27 PM.

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  15. #15
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    :laugh:
    Seems everyone who has posted so far is confused- well, not surprising, they didn't make it clear in-game until fairly recently.

    The +1, +2 level is /for loot awarded/.
    Hover over the quest window difficulties, it'll say as much.

    As far as difficulty difference, it changes per quest- for most, it seems to be 1.5x normal on hard, 2.5x normal on elite; however, some, especially recent epic quests, seem to scale more as 2x, 4x.

    More notably, elite in any quest adds more powerful spells to the selection of any spellcasters in that quest, and dramatically ramps their saving throws and spell penetration (if they have any).


    As the quest windows have always noted, the difficulty differences aren't based on changing the level of the quest- but rather, on the target audience running it.
    Casual is for 'easy solo play', Normal is for 'small party play/solo play', Hard is for 'full party', Elite is for 'full party looking for a challenge'. All for that exact same level, not for a lower or higher level range.

    While I paraphrased those, again, you can simply hover over the difficulties to see the precise phrasing.


    Now, that all aside, adjusting the difficulty of the quest does affect the level of the quest for the purposes of xp penalties for higher level toons, but that's more to give leeway in facing the much-greater challenges of hard and elite, than for the quest actually comparing to quests of +1, +2 levels.

    After all, as noted, the challenge multiplies dramatically, rather than simply scaling a touch.


    Hopefully that helps some!
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  16. #16
    The Hatchery vVvAiaynAvVv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagolar View Post
    :laugh:
    Seems everyone who has posted so far is confused
    Everyone?.......I find what I wrote to be quite the truth...and not at all confused......so were a few other posters...where on earth did you get that from?.......or are you currently in another galaxy?

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  17. #17
    Community Member Barhai's Avatar
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    Elite is two level higher than normal for XP purpose only and most of the time for loot (just a few quests that screw that last part though) .
    Difficulty wise in most quest elite of level X is considerably harder than quest on normal at level X+2.

    And it gets much worse in epic.
    Even before L20, some quests are famous for being a nightmare on epic (most shavarath quest on elite are harder than quite a few epic elite quests).
    Pirotesse (battle-trap), Clausius (old style paly), Cadhu (swat fighter), Abysinthe (cleric), Sephiria (sorc), Dragunova (archer), Mauhin (wiz), Muhrahin(wf juggernauth), Azred(tempest), Birebash(sniper cleric), Bashibouzouk (barb), Salud(battle bard), Sniperovitch (repeater), Iraelle(battle cleric)

  18. #18
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    For low/mid-level quests the CR of the mobs generally go up by 2 in Hard and 5 in Elite, so that's a rough estimate of how the difficulty of the quest changes too.

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