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  1. #1
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default Enhancements that require low HP are bad

    As above. At any level, if you are at less than 25% HP and fall, you're going to die unless you get healed. Personally, I would rather spend AP on enhancements that do not depend on HP.

    Edit: Unless, like Defensive Roll, they make my characters harder to kill.
    Last edited by HatsuharuZ; 04-18-2013 at 02:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    As above. At any level, if you are at less than 25% HP and fall, you're going to die unless you get healed. Personally, I would rather spend AP on enhancements that do not depend on HP.
    In the trading card world we call those "cards that encourage bad hand management", if you have 1 or less cards in hand this monster gets +x sort of deal.

    There should never be any sort of active ability that encourages you to be dying... It's bad threat management.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    In that vein, no one should weild weapons that damage them as they swing, or delevel them for alignment...

    It is a cost associated with the effect that is thematic more than anything else. People who use those abilities know the cost.

    Chug a pot.

  4. #4
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    Is there a particular enhancement that you're talking about? So far I've only seen the wizard ones posted.
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    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobmx View Post
    Is there a particular enhancement that you're talking about? So far I've only seen the wizard ones posted.
    The Orcish Fury racials and the Vengeful Magic enhancement in the Angel of Vengeance tree. Both increase offensive power (in one way or another) when one is at low health. Anything that makes it easier for my character to survive when under a certain amount of HP is okay. They might even make the difference between life and death. But these ones that increase offensive power when low on HP? Traps, all of them.

  6. #6
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    The Orcish Fury racials and the Vengeful Magic enhancement in the Angel of Vengeance tree. Both increase offensive power (in one way or another) when one is at low health. Anything that makes it easier for my character to survive when under a certain amount of HP is okay. They might even make the difference between life and death. But these ones that increase offensive power when low on HP? Traps, all of them.
    OOOH, that is what you meant. I think of those as tactical abilities. They have their use, but the requirement is stiff. You best have a backup plan in place. In otherwords, never count on it.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Traps, all of them.
    Traps perhaps for those who are sitting with a low HP maximum.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 04-18-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Traps perhaps for those who are sitting with a low HP maximum.
    Just as bad for high HP characters. Let's say you have 2000HP. When the healer is scanning the red bars do you think they will not instinctively heal the "dying" character with 1/3 HP? Of course they will. That's especially true if they aren't a healbot and are also trying to cast offensively/fight at the same time (I guess that might no longer be an issue in the future ). What's more, if you have a couple 800 HP character sitting next to you the mass heals for them will be keeping you at 75%+ health at all times.

    Total waste unless you are very high HP and a self healing solo player.

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    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    The half orc fury is one.

    I'd caveat the statement that some *may* work - namely those that actually function to increase HP, defenses, etc. Life Shield proccing at an increasing rate inversely related to your HP, etc.

    In other games / situations (like the amusing PNP Trouser Snake Dwarf or some of the 4e near-dead builds), you kinda want it but you also kinda want to build your build so it is ALWAYS on.

    That said, in most games offense is better than defense, period.
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    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    orcish fury is the big culprit here and you have to spend points on it if you want your str point enhancements from being horc. It's a bad system

  11. #11
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    orcish fury is the big culprit here and you have to spend points on it if you want your str point enhancements from being horc. It's a bad system
    Well that's stupid.

    STR enhancements are a key thing that makes Horc good.

    It became pretty clear in my first week as a Horc that fury was bad and I haven't taken it since.

  12. #12
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    orcish fury is the big culprit here and you have to spend points on it if you want your str point enhancements from being horc. It's a bad system
    And doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    "Ouch, a sword through my belly!"

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  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    And doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

    "Ouch, a sword through my belly!"

    "Now we got yous, orcbaby. You'll be tasty on our table tonight."

    "Ah-ha! One thing you didn't know about orcs is that as we lose our poisonous blood, we grow stronger! Die dark elf scum!"

  14. #14
    Community Member ~Grumpycat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    orcish fury is the big culprit here and you have to spend points on it if you want your str point enhancements from being horc. It's a bad system
    My main is a horc barb. I watch for when I use frenzied berzerker and death frenzy. If Im taking heavy damage, I dont use it unless beating down the boss faster is required. At which point Im very aware of my HP and respond with Rum and SF pots. For every negative, there is a way to counter it. You just have to find it or have some one lead you to it.

    It's not a bad system. You have to balance out your character. I was floored to see a caster rage quit the entire game because *the new monsters in MotU hit too hard and a caster cant keep up with the self healing any more*. My thought was, *welcome to the world of the melee*. You're going to have to sacrifice something to gain something else or adapt in order to overcome or just reroll and find a better approach.

    And trust me when I say I LOVE playing my barbarian and I get tells inviting me to so much I end up neglecting my other toons. Gearing is a BIG key. The wrong gear can make even the best build a total gimp. And I should know. Im the king of gimp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpycat View Post
    It's not a bad system. You have to balance out your character.
    You're making the mistake of confusing being able to mitigate it/work the system with decent design. Just because you can find a way to work with it doesnt' make it good design. It's bad design, period.

    No, if they are going to stick with things like Orcish Fury, then they need to implement something like that guy's idea about the bonus lasting for x time upon reaching the triggering condition.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    You're making the mistake of confusing being able to mitigate it/work the system with decent design. Just because you can find a way to work with it doesnt' make it good design. It's bad design, period.

    No, if they are going to stick with things like Orcish Fury, then they need to implement something like that guy's idea about the bonus lasting for x time upon reaching the triggering condition.
    Not really. You just need to stop relying on healers to hjeal your red bar 24/7. If you manage your own bars on the other hand, these enhancements are potentially epic. The bonus does need to be higher tho.

  17. #17
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    It seems as though you're not saying enhancements are the culprit, but specifically the horc line.
    Defensive Roll, as listed in other posts, is shown as a positive outcome (especially with the new enhancements buffing it to sub 50% and 80% reduction).

    The case of the horc str boost is that it's simply not powerful enough for the limited uptime, boosting it is one option but actually making it come into play would be a better thing.

    Personally, i'd rather it appeared at 75%, 50% and 25%, triggering a +8 str, +15% enhancement attack speed and a 25% damage reduction for 10 seconds. Adding too much str is obviously a trap, so staggering different bonuses depending on the amount of damage would be more in line with making the fury effective (I'm sure people agree that it's imperative the lowest health trigger needs to be some kind of damage prevention/healing for it to be considered) as well as giving a temporary buff that lasts for a specific amount of time (the trigger is only when you go below the %, to allow for easier balancing with the power level).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~atomicmew3 View Post
    Not really. You just need to stop relying on healers to hjeal your red bar 24/7. If you manage your own bars on the other hand, these enhancements are potentially epic. The bonus does need to be higher tho.
    Relying on healers to hjeal isn't the problem here. It's impossible to be the only one managing their own red bar if there is another person in the party who can also manage it. One can't just not get healed when a heal is thrown on them. I know, I once did a TR with a friend and asked him never ever to heal me just so I could push my limits as a gamer. Most of the time, he didn't and let me drink my own pots. When it seemed I was about to bite more than I could chew, no such luck. If I can't even get a friend who knows me not to heal me, how on earth could I convince a random person hitting an lfm not to?

    As for the bonus. Definitely needs to be higher unless this ability is only intended to be somewhat useful between levels 1 to 19. It kinda becomes +0 str regardless of hp percentage as soon as someone does a primal scream.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    You're making the mistake of confusing being able to mitigate it/work the system with decent design. Just because you can find a way to work with it doesnt' make it good design. It's bad design, period.

    No, if they are going to stick with things like Orcish Fury, then they need to implement something like that guy's idea about the bonus lasting for x time upon reaching the triggering condition.
    That would be a solution, but you could make the abilities good in their current form. You just need to make them better. +6 STR is ~1% dps. That is just not worth the effort and risk. But, harking back to my GW1 days, I can tell you if they were strong enough offensive increases, people would use them. For example (not necessarily meant to be balanced), if they gave you double damage @ 75%, triple @ 50%, and quadruple @ 25% - they would get used. Some people would form teams around them. You could make a build that was survivable at less then 75% or 50% hp, and if your healer knows how it works, it would be worth the extra risk and effort to finish quests so much faster.

    The trouble with these is, the gains is are small relative to the risks.

  20. #20
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    They're bad (as in not worth taking), but not a bad idea.

    Enhancements that reward active gameplay and tactical thinking are a good thing. It rewards players who are able to correctly predict the situation, and punishes those that miscalculate.

    however, what needs to be done with the horc fury enhancements is to make the strength bonuses progressive and honestly just more so that they are worthwhile. Something like: +4 str < 75%, +8 < 50% and +16 < 25%.
    Last edited by AtomicMew; 04-18-2013 at 02:36 PM.

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