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  1. #101
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    There is no intended reduction in damage output for arcane casters, especially in their chosen damage type. This is explicitly true for spell power and criticals. (Maximum static critical damage may be lower than before.)

    It's true we have not spent as much time on some classes as others in the last month. We are sorry if we haven't had time to address specific concerns for each class.

    We don't have hard to numbers to give right now because we haven't done that work yet. The goal is to have similar or higher levels of spellpower, though we acknowledge spellpower across all damage types for a given individual may not look identical to live.

    We do expect to take into account all enhancement related spell damage, such as: Electrocution: Whenever you cast an Electric or Sonic damage spell, you gain +5 to your Electric and Sonic Spell Power for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 3 times.
    Alright.

    There are some controversial issues with what you have said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    There is no intended reduction in damage output for arcane casters, especially in their chosen damage type. This is explicitly true for spell power and criticals. (Maximum static critical damage may be lower than before.)
    First you say you don't intend to lower the damage output. Then, in the same paragraph, you state that the Maximum static (static?) is lower than before.

    1) Was it an oversight then that the Spell critical damage enhancement are gone in the Lamannia build?
    2) What about the whole 0.75 SP per point spent in the tree? Why not make it 1 whole point or even 1.5? We are damage dealers and yet we are getting shafted even in this tree.

    We do expect to take into account all enhancement related spell damage, such as: Electrocution: Whenever you cast an Electric or Sonic damage spell, you gain +5 to your Electric and Sonic Spell Power for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 3 times.
    We do take into account these enhancement. You want to give us more flexibility with these enhancement, yet you are "forcing" us to take these kind of Enhancements to HAVE THE SAME SPELL POWER AS ON LIVE.

    It's true we have not spent as much time on some classes as others in the last month. We are sorry if we haven't had time to address specific concerns for each class.
    Then I will expect that Sorcerers (along with the other classes ignored) will have the same attention that you are paying to the other classes.
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  2. #102
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonofsteel2 View Post
    Yes the if you cast element of your choose and gain 5 spell power in that element. That works great if can cast over and over and over that element. So reality we need to hit the free spells over and over again so we can keep the spellpower going, woot. So much fun. I would love you to change this mechanic. I never enjoy things like this and in turn lead to people using macros.
    Exactly. I think I understand the reasoning behind that enhancement - "Casting spells is fun! Give players a bonus for casting all the time!" But in practice, this turns something fun into a chore, especially if this casting is necessary to get your spellpower back to the kind of rating you had previously gotten without having to cast anything. If sorc spellpower ratings were equal to or noticeably higher than their old ratings, then something like this might be a nice bonus.

    Do what other people have suggested - add 0.75 spell power in the tree's element per AP spent. That, or increase the bonuses given for taking the base enhancements.

    Finally, while I know this would probably have to be something to do down the road, have you considered adding a Force Savant PrE (I think the name for it in 3.5 was "Argent Savant")? That would be a great secondary damage tree for sorcs - relying entirely on elemental damage when most end-game critters have serious elemental resistances and immunities can be a real pain, so I've always had my sorcs specialize in one element + force. Now my force spell power is... very, very sad
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  3. #103
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonofsteel2 View Post
    15 spell power that will never be exactly that, because you have to keep it going.
    It stacks up to 10 times for 50 spell power.


    Maximum for your primary element:

    60 Universal from points spent in only Sorcerer Trees
    30 from Core enhancements
    50 from Electrocution-style enhancements
    ------------------------------------------------
    140 Spell Power in your Savant element

    We of course don't expect everyone to maintain this maximum amount at all times for all builds, but it's clear that not everyone is on the same page if some people have been misled into thinking there's 35 less Spell Power than what is actually there.


    First you say you don't intend to lower the damage output. Then, in the same paragraph, you state that the Maximum static (static?) is lower than before.
    This isn't intended to be contradictory. The intent is that damage is the same.

    We also intend to lower the maximum critical damage from spell criticals and not have spell critical damage continue rising ever higher.

    Both of these things can be true. We may not be there with the current numbers (probably not).
    Last edited by Vargouille; 07-03-2013 at 03:25 PM.

  4. #104
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    As always, if you want to make some serious suggestions with hard numbers, showing us the math works in your favor. We're not requesting you guys do the lifting, but if you are suggesting something like +0.75 per point spent, that change will come quicker if you convince us why those numbers are right, instead of 0 or 1 or 3 or -4.

    It's not obvious that everyone getting up to +60 primary spell power in savants is desirable. You'd have to convince us that the cap of 200 spell power is better game design and more fun than 140.

  5. #105
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We don't have hard to numbers to give right now because we haven't done that work yet. The goal is to have similar or higher levels of spellpower, though we acknowledge spellpower across all damage types for a given individual may not look identical to live.[/i]
    Is the same true for devotion lines on bard/paladins/rangers?

  6. #106
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Is the same true for devotion lines on bard/paladins/rangers?
    I agree that those classes would benefit from more spellpower, especially paladins and rangers, but this is the wrong thread for that discussion.


    As to what Varg was saying....

    "Fun" is not the issue, not directly. It's about balance amongst classes. Sorcerer players should ask themselves 'Is my sorc viable?', 'Does my sorc have enough of an advantage that I can contribute to completing the quest better than I could if I have played, say, a wizard?', and 'Does the difference in the amount of spellpower my sorc gets between the new and old enhancements enough to affect my character's performance?'.

    There are other factors besides spellpower. Don't forget that sorcerers still have significantly more spell points and lower cooldowns than other casters.

  7. #107
    2015 DDO Players Council Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're not requesting you guys do the lifting, but if you are suggesting something like +0.75 per point spent, that change will come quicker if you convince us why those numbers are right, instead of 0 or 1 or 3 or -4.

    It's not obvious that everyone getting up to +60 primary spell power in savants is desirable. You'd have to convince us that the cap of 200 spell power is better game design and more fun than 140.
    I'll do the calculation for you, I don't mind doing this so called "heavy lifting" but under a condition:

    I expect responses from you (the developers) if I am going to take the time out to display any justification. You might be reading the stuff, and taking notes, but "I" need some reassurance in the form of a response.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    It stacks up to 10 times for 50 spell power.


    Maximum for your primary element:

    60 Universal from points spent in only Sorcerer Trees
    30 from Core enhancements
    50 from Electrocution-style enhancements
    ------------------------------------------------
    140 Spell Power in your Savant element

    We of course don't expect everyone to maintain this maximum amount at all times for all builds, but it's clear that not everyone is on the same page if some people have been misled into thinking there's 35 less Spell Power than what is actually there.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post

    We do expect to take into account all enhancement related spell damage, such as: Electrocution: Whenever you cast an Electric or Sonic damage spell, you gain+5 to your Electric and Sonic Spell Power for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 3 times.
    +5 * 3 doesn't equal 50.

    And you wonder why people get confused. If I could actually get the character copy to work I would check myself..but it doesn't work for me.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As always, if you want to make some serious suggestions with hard numbers, showing us the math works in your favor. We're not requesting you guys do the lifting, but if you are suggesting something like +0.75 per point spent, that change will come quicker if you convince us why those numbers are right, instead of 0 or 1 or 3 or -4.

    It's not obvious that everyone getting up to +60 primary spell power in savants is desirable. You'd have to convince us that the cap of 200 spell power is better game design and more fun than 140.
    I've done it before, but sure. I'll happily do some math.

    Spell Criticals:
    On Live:
    Chance to occur: 9% from maxing the enhancement line + 12% superior lore item = 21% chance to occur
    Multiplier: Base of 1.5 + 0.75 by maxing the enhancement line + 0.5 from superior lore = 2.75

    Enhacement Pass:
    Chance to occur: 5% magical training + 8% enhancements + 6% superior lore item = 19% chance to occur
    Multipler: Always 2
    ** Caveat: By spending 3 feats, we can get an additional +3% chance from mental toughness

    Assuming your non-critical damage is 1, then:
    On Live:
    Spell Damage = (1 * 0.79 non-crit) + (1 * 2.75 * .21 crit) = 1.3675
    Essentially, we get a 36.75% increase in damage from criticals

    Enhancement Pass:
    Spell Damage = (1 * .81) + (1 * 2 * .19) = 1.19
    Essentially, a 19% increase from criticals.

    That leaves 36.75 - 19 = 17.75% that needs to be compensated for from items or enhancements.

    Option A: Return superior lore to 12%, instead of 6%. Change each enhancement from 2% to 5%. That then yields:
    New Enhancement Pass:
    Chance to occur: 5% magical training + 20% enhancements + 12% superior lore item = 37% chance to occur
    Spell Damage = (1 * .63) + (1 * 2 * .37) = 1.37
    Essentially, a 37% increase from criticals. That is roughly what we get now.

    Option B: This option gives the amount that comes from items & enhancements closer
    Leave magical training an enhancements the same. Currently, on live, you get 9% chance and a 2.25 multiplier from these. That yields: .09 * 1.25 = 11.25% of the 36.75%. Enhancement pass gives 13%.

    Then change superior lore from 6% to 24%. That yields the 37% we get now when combined with the enhancements & feats.

    As they stand now, they are half as good as they are on live (19 / 36.75 - to be precise).

    Now to take a turn at spell power.
    Last edited by chrisdinus7; 07-03-2013 at 04:22 PM.

  10. #110
    Community Member btolson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    It stacks up to 10 times for 50 spell power.


    Maximum for your primary element:

    60 Universal from points spent in only Sorcerer Trees
    30 from Core enhancements
    50 from Electrocution-style enhancements
    ------------------------------------------------
    140 Spell Power in your Savant element

    We of course don't expect everyone to maintain this maximum amount at all times for all builds, but it's clear that not everyone is on the same page if some people have been misled into thinking there's 35 less Spell Power than what is actually there.
    Please consider a different mechanic for Earth savant. Acid is the DoT element -- there is no natural playstyle that involves rapid chain spamming of acid spells, unlike other elements. If you add a stack when a DoT ticks instead of just when it is cast, that is probably fine.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    It stacks up to 10 times for 50 spell power.


    Maximum for your primary element:

    60 Universal from points spent in only Sorcerer Trees
    30 from Core enhancements
    50 from Electrocution-style enhancements
    ------------------------------------------------
    140 Spell Power in your Savant element

    We of course don't expect everyone to maintain this maximum amount at all times for all builds, but it's clear that not everyone is on the same page if some people have been misled into thinking there's 35 less Spell Power than what is actually there.
    <snip>
    On live: 100 from the elemental line + 20 capstone = 120

    Enhancement Pass:
    Main Element:
    60 USP from tree + 30 core + 50 electrocution = 140
    -30 Opposition power.

    Secondary Element:
    60 USP + 25 Core (at most) + 50 electrocution = 135
    -25 Secondary Opposition

    Secondary Opposition
    60 - 25 = 35

    Primary Opposition
    60 - 30 = 30

    Further maintaining that spell power requires us to cast 1 primary and 1 secondary spell every 6 seconds.

    To put it bluntly, 3 element sorcerers are dead. They lose 85 spell power, while having to spam spells to keep close to their current spell power. There open, for example, is at 90 main, 85 secondary, 35 secondary opp, 30 opp, verses a possible 120 across the board on live. They further lose -6 caster levels from their opposition, and -5 from their secondary opposition. And you can't rely on force as an element, since you get no force critical enhancements. And, if you dare to spend points in your racial tree, you lose even more spell power.

    So, yes, if you are spell spamming, you can do somewhat better in one element, maybe two. But only with the least efficient of play styles and assuming you invest solely in caster class trees.

    We are being limited to 2 elements from fire, ice, acid, electric. Further, instead of a constant 120 spell power in each, we get 90 / 85, with a conditional bonus of up to 50. To keep power the same, you must be assuming we'll spend most (60% or so) of our time with a full stack of the electrocution type bonus going for 2 elements.

    Consider, for example, how a boss fight plays out. Right now, we likely keep Naic's Biting Cold and Eldar's electric surge running. If it is an easy fight, we might also spam spells. Assuming sp is a concern, however, we won't. That means we are stuck at 90 and 85 spell power instead of 120. We'll never be able to build up the spell power stack in that case, since we are only casting an elemental spell every 15s.

    Possible changes:
    1) Change Electrocuion to last 20 seconds, and let it build stacks based on targets hit instead of spells cast. That way we can maintain it while fighting bosses, and avoid the cold open we get. Especially since the opening part of the fight is when a burst attacker like sorc should do most of their damage, not the least. Also, make sure it decays a single stack at a time, like it does now.

    2) Give us a force tree. Right now, we can only get 11% criticals with force and 60 force spell power. Force builds are very popular, and the current pass completely destroys them with no force related enhancements. The force tree's "electrocution" also needs to raise recon spell power.

    3) Change it to be 1 USP per point spent. Yes, that raises the maximum spell power, but lets us actually pick up some racial abilities. If you are really worried about the max spell power, put a cap of 60 USP from trees into place. And, our cold open would still be lower.

    Note, you'd need to do all three of those to bring spell power (and only spell power) close to where it is on live for sorcerers. We'd still be unable to do 3 elements, but at least dual element sorcs would be workable. And 3 elements might work if one is force and you don't give it an opposition school.

  12. #112
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Okay, my math skills aren't fantastic, so feel free to correct me on any of the following, but here's what I came up with:

    Wizard - Pale Master primary, Archmage Secondary

    Assume 50 points spent in PM, 30 points spent in AM
    • + 105 Negative
    • + 67.5 Universal

    Assume 50 intelligence and Spellcraft 29
    • + 49 Universal

    Twilight w/Negative energy
    • + 120 Negative
    • + 120 Force
    • + 80 Universal


    Totals
    Negative: 274
    Force: 236
    Universal: 196.5


    Sorcerer - Air Savant primary, Water Savant Secondary

    Assume 50 points spent in AS, 30 points spent in WS
    Assume maximum core abilities taken in each
    • * (0.75 x 50) + (0.75 x 30) = 60 Universal
    • * +30 Electric/Air/Sonic Spellpower, +20 Cold Spell Power

    Assume Electrocution + Water equivalent
    • + 0-50 Electric/Air/Sonic and Cold Spellpower

    Assume 28 Intelligence (14 base + 4 tome + 10 items) and Spellcraft 29
    • + 38 Universal

    Assume Twilight w/Cold + Epic Elite Iron Beads
    • + 120 Electric
    • + 120 Cold
    • + 120 Force
    • + 80 Universal


    Totals
    Electric/Air/Sonic: 248-298
    Cold: 238-288 Cold
    Force: 218
    Universal: 178

    The problem here comes down mainly to a disagreement about the usefulness/desirability of the Electrocution-style enhancements. Without using those, sorcerers are casting their primary element at roughly 10 spell power higher that a Pale Master would for that same element, and at ~30 spell power less than a PM's negative energy rating. Using those at maximum charge, a savant can cast their main element at roughly 25 more spell power than a Pale Master.

    So IF the sorcerer uses Electrocution to its maximum effect (which means casting an electric spell at least once every 6 seconds ten times), they can slightly out-perform a Pale Master for raw damage. Note, however, that Pale Masters also have significantly more reliable instant death spells (and usually better crowd control spells as well) - that being its main purpose, after all, it's not supposed to be a primary damage dealer. If the sorcerer slacks off on casting even slightly, then they can't even match a Pale Master for damage.

    And finally, let me emphasize the problem with the following build:

    Wizard - Archmage exclusively
    Assume 80 points spent in AM
    • + 80 Universal

    Assume 50 intelligence and Spellcraft 34 (+5 from Archmage capstone)
    • + 54 Universal

    Assume any item with +120 spell power of any kind

    Totals
    Any damage type: 254

    Yes, an Archmage can slightly beat any Savant's specialty element before Electrocution style enhancements are taken into account. That's… just not cool.
    Last edited by dejafu; 07-04-2013 at 07:02 AM.
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  13. #113
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    On live: 100 from the elemental line + 20 capstone = 120
    3) Change it to be 1 USP per point spent. Yes, that raises the maximum spell power, but lets us actually pick up some racial abilities. If you are really worried about the max spell power, put a cap of 60 USP from trees into place. And, our cold open would still be lower.
    Actually, human nature means that is the mandatory maximum. Just like Toughness is(/was) "optional" but really mandatory, as long as USP is 1:1 with no cap, it is 'wrong' to spend points anywhere else than what gives you USP if you have a blue-bar.

  14. #114
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Electrocution style enhancements also add an additional managed resource to arcane classes. It becomes a balancing act of SP spent vs Maintaining the stack. Insert obligatory "Sell Moar Pots!" here, but really the quest becomes even more meta-intensive on how to manage SP enough to get the spell power to kill the things you need to before the next shrine...

    Sorry for not including the numbers, but if people are already recalling/shrining/re-entering to get through EE, then a new mechanic that forces them to spend more SP to just "tread water" seems like the wrong call.
    Last edited by Systern; 07-03-2013 at 05:19 PM.

  15. #115
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    It stacks up to 10 times for 50 spell power.


    Maximum for your primary element:

    60 Universal from points spent in only Sorcerer Trees
    30 from Core enhancements
    50 from Electrocution-style enhancements
    ------------------------------------------------
    140 Spell Power in your Savant element

    We of course don't expect everyone to maintain this maximum amount at all times for all builds, but it's clear that not everyone is on the same page if some people have been misled into thinking there's 35 less Spell Power than what is actually there.



    This isn't intended to be contradictory. The intent is that damage is the same.

    We also intend to lower the maximum critical damage from spell criticals and not have spell critical damage continue rising ever higher.

    Both of these things can be true. We may not be there with the current numbers (probably not).
    Varg, what you posted is the Spell power under silly conditions and with some absurd requirements.

    You are asking us to not take Healing amplification II at least, not Human Adaptability, not Human Spell power action boost, Action Surge, Greater adaptability. This alone is well over 20 points. Count this + the fact that every point spent is 0.75 SP in the chosen tree and you will see that the 120 Spell power of the live are far away in this build of Lamannia.

    Human have no Scroll and Wand Mastery atm, when they get it (or Sorcs in general), that's even less AP for Savants.

    Also, without Electroconduction, we are looking at an even bigger nerf. This buff is ONLY active in boss fights and that's because of its duration. Up it to 15 seconds and let 1 stack fade away at time and then things start to get interesting.
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  16. #116
    Community Member Theolin's Avatar
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    So ... wait ....
    If I understand this correctly,
    I can get more spell power out of splashing 1 or 2 levels of Wiz on a Sorc than I can get from a pure Sorc??

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theolin View Post
    So ... wait ....
    If I understand this correctly,
    I can get more spell power out of splashing 1 or 2 levels of Wiz on a Sorc than I can get from a pure Sorc??
    You get more from splashing 1 or 2 levels of several classes than if you stay pure for any class. As things stand right now.

  18. #118
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    If it were up to me, I'd say give 0.5 spellpower for every ap spent in any tree- racial, sorc, wiz, monk... then have caster trees give extra spellpower per ap spent. Maybe an additional 0.25 - 0.75 universal and 0.5 - 1 for main elements. That way you can put points into racial trees or splash classes without losing too much power.

    Also, as many have said already, you shouldn't have to work so hard in quest to maintain your spellpower.

  19. #119
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post


    The intent is that damage is the same.
    Then why change it? You're adding essentially twice the number of cool down timers to manage, and for what? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I thought the discussion on activated abilities and cool down timers fairly demonstrated that the managing these things isn't really fun and that there is a limit to the number of cool down timers that a player can manage and still have fun.

    Is it possible to get to a system of stacking damage bonuses based on spell cast that would make for roughly equivalent performance to live? Probably for competent players. New players will be hit by this the most. They are the ones that are most likely to get lost, have to search for traps, secret doors, run back compatriots to resurrection shrines etc. I may have this wrong, but if it only creates 1 stack per 6 seconds, it takes almost 78 seconds just to get back to what we have on live assuming perfect conditions. When you figure in travel time and the duration of most encounters, I think you'll find that you won't get equivalent performance and that isn't even taking into account the additional damage that the team takes because the alpha is lower.

    And that only works for the primary element. If you have to go off element because of resistances, a rather common occurrence, you just end up much worse off.

    This is just a bad idea. Even if you tweak the numbers to get it to deliver equivalent or better damage performance, it's still a bad idea because of the need to manage yet another set of cool downs.

    Of course it's going Live regardless so I'll shut up now.

  20. #120
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    Cool

    I play a necro based human sorc and a force shiradi sorc. Electrocution does not fit my play style. I would appreciate a 2nd prestige tree since any savant enhancements I take are an after thought. I do not want to play a wizard so will just have to park those chars. Thanks for communicating finally. Someone go bring shade back, they sometimes listen to him.

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