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  1. #41
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default CL bonuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    Oh and btw, stop giving us CL bonuses. That system is broken, most of our spells are capped and we have like +2000) CL bonuses. If you wanna do something, give us more MCL stuff (also useless, but we have too few MCL bonuses and too many CL ones) and more spell crit chance/damage.
    Are hard for everyone to understand on account of them almost always being broken. Totes.

    So frustrating.
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  2. #42
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Great point

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Do the elemental forms give crit resistance, etc.?
    Do these function as druid elemental forms? Also, can a druid cast elemental buffs on them (or are those self only)?
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  3. #43
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    The very sad thing is, that no matter what complaints are made, nothing will be changed at all. Anything that blocks someone from taking the enhancement may be fixed in time, however every single thing about the enhancements will remain WAI.

    Player input is the least of any devs consideration. The sad thing is, I have always loved the sorc power but making the new power enhancements an Int skill based is just ridiculous. Looks like my sorc will retire permanently if all the enhancement changes remain un changed.

  4. #44
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen-thest View Post
    The very sad thing is, that no matter what complaints are made, nothing will be changed at all. Anything that blocks someone from taking the enhancement may be fixed in time, however every single thing about the enhancements will remain WAI.

    Player input is the least of any devs consideration. The sad thing is, I have always loved the sorc power but making the new power enhancements an Int skill based is just ridiculous. Looks like my sorc will retire permanently if all the enhancement changes remain un changed.
    Yea pretty sad the best sorc builds with this setup will all have to include some wizard levels.. Just to unlock spell points, scroll mastery, and higher spell power totals. Very backwards system.

  5. #45
    Community Member kingfisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussir View Post
    Well, seems my worst nightmares about sorcerers came true...

    I have only one thing I can say about the sorcerer:



    Do us all a favor and stop trying to make up bulls**t, Turbine. Just keep the enhancements we already have, throw them in a SINGLE CLASS TREE and then add to it as needed.

    And either make spellcraft work with CHA/WIS too or just dump it... and a lot of other stuff that can just hit the trash bin... like this whole enhancement pass. Over a year to come up with pile of... bah... calling this poo, insults poo.
    post of the week? #nailedit

  6. #46
    Community Member Esserbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Yea pretty sad the best sorc builds with this setup will all have to include some wizard levels.. Just to unlock spell points, scroll mastery, and higher spell power totals. Very backwards system.
    Agreed. This is far from optimal and will pretty much make all current Sorc players go Wizard instead, since the class is neutered and useless now.

  7. #47
    Community Member BinyaminTsadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    There are some issues with the sorcerer enhancements.

    4) Spell craft is an int based skill. This has the odd impact of meaning wizards can get a higher elemental spell power than a sorcerer can.
    This^

  8. #48
    Community Member BinyaminTsadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post

    3) Air Savant adds numerous bonuses sonic spells. However, Air Savants can't even cross-train Perform for the +1 sonic spell power (as compared to say, spellcraft). Not a big issues, since sorc sonic spells aren't very good anyway.
    Wasn't sonic traditionally an Earth domain? It seems this is true for enemies in various dungeons. Will this be changed also?

  9. #49
    Community Member BinyaminTsadik's Avatar
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    Add a universal arcane caster tree for ALL arcanes (bards/sorcs/wizards)

    Include within it.

    Repair
    Force
    Sonic
    Spell Pen
    Metamagics
    Stat Points (charisma or intelligence)
    Wands/Scroll mastery
    Threat reduction
    Fluidity

    ETC

  10. #50
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    I think that lores do nothing at all, at the moment, actually.
    This rings a bell from an update years ago where Lore items didn't do anything. Could be my fevered imagination, but sounds strangely familiar.

    Of course, the simple solution to this would be to eliminate the guess work and just include the spell crit chance and spell multiplier on the spellpower pop-up. I have absolutely no idea why this wasn't included in the pop up when it was first added to the UI.

    I know it's not strictly part of the enhancement pass, but if there was any way to add this sometime soon(ish, not tm which never happens) then it would help a lot of us.

  11. #51
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    To be honest, I don't think the enhancement pass changes a whole lot. Bit lower damage, but the positive things of sorc still are still there. Quick casting, loads of spellpoints, wings. That's all what matters. Shiradi sorcs remain the top build.

    Crits doing half the damage of what they do now is of course a bug.

  12. #52
    Community Member btolson's Avatar
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    I really thought this would be the easiest class for them to get right. Disappointed to say the least. Overarching concerns:

    1) Nervous about loss of overall damage multiplier

    -On live, with 9% crit chance, +.65 crit multiplier (mandatory minimum for main line full savant) from enhancements, coupled with 12% crit chance, +.5 crit multiplier from an item, you have an effective average multiplier of 1.3465

    -On Alpha, with 5% crit chance from magical training, and 8% crit chance from enhancements, we have an average multiplier of 1.13
    ---This requires superior lore items to offer a total of 21.65% (so, 22%, really) crit chance when revamped, just to break even on our damage multiplier. This is a sizeable upgrade, and would significantly shift the balance of your multiplier from enhancements to gear, so I am pessimistic that current superior lore items will see this much increase. Obviously this isn't locked down yet, but I am nervous.


    2) Loss of flexibility

    -Spending points down 1 savant line will totally lock you out of its opposing element's tree. So despite 4 trees being available, you can never put points into more than 2 of them at any given time. Thus if you are an earth or air savant that liked to boost both your Niac's DoT and your Wall of Fire crit chance, you are now out of luck because you must choose one or the other.

    -Moreover, the SLAs between trees share cooldowns with each other (e.g., melf's arrow puts snowball swarm on cooldown when used). So when spending points into a secondary savant line, you get all the negatives in terms of casting level penalties and loss of flexibility due to tree-locking, but only get partial benefit.


    3) Loss of force line and repair line

    -Self explanatory nerf. This is the biggest case yet for the need of a General tree.


    4) Boring design.

    -These 4 trees could easily have been done as a single tree (which is what I was expecting, frankly), that requires you to make a choice of element when starting it out and then everything else is a Multi-Choice Selector where you can only choose the option for your element (this is actually one of a few places that Multi-Choice Selectors actually belong). Like how several parts of the Draconic Incarnation ED are designed. You would then ideally be free to dabble in a second, General, tree or a distinctly different tree (like Acolyte of the Skin, which I was also expecting to see).


    5) Unappealing capstones.

    -With max casting levels being broken, this is largely just a 100% fortification & -10 resist in opposing element toggle, which is not a major draw. If max casting level bonuses are fixed, the severe penalty that the elemental forms offer to all other elements would far outweigh the benefit. No worth it to stay pure anymore.


    6) Some numerical differences from live, based on my character copy:

    -loss of a few HP
    -loss of ~100 SP
    -small loss in spellpower to elements I use the most (with all 80 points in savant lines, 0 points in racial, with my tree's capstone, and with 0 ranks in Spellcraft. Making up the difference in spellpower is possible with more INT by taking Spellcraft, but that would would cost me either CON or CHA, so I lose something compared to live either way)

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post

    Zero new PrE for sorc. bleh. Plus the other class I like bbn.. only planned to get one more.
    Only class that will get 1 pre? .meh.
    I'm glad to see you are testing Sorc enhanc

    And this. I was eager to see Alcolyte of the Skin

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Capstone: Nerfed. Sure it lets you have a silly animation matching your main Savant choice, but the 20 spell power was removed, and in its place: Nothing because its been proven for years that +CL bonuses DO NOT WORK.
    Good point. I forgot about the 20 Spell power of the Capstone. And as I said some posts above, these CL bonuses are really ****. They are broken, the system is broken, their bonus is broken. I can cast at level 36 but spells are capped and I hardly can ever reach a MCL of 36. Even if I could, they are, in case you missed it, B R O K E N.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    The one good part but not really:
    Better overall spellpower? Maybe? . I mean the +.75? SPwr per point is something. Weird tho, its like, why not just 1 for 1? I mean a whole 20 Spell power when were getting so many other nerfs too would of been overpowereD? Really?
    With my calculation, you are able to reach better spellpower only and only in longer fights, when you can accumulate Electroconcution that gives you 30 Spell power. Without that, with the same enhancements of live, I have LESS Spell power, and that is counting Spellcraft (INT Based because you know, wizards are so in need of Spellpower).

    Also as suggested by me in my first reply, a 1:1 point spent per spellpower would give us that small benefit that would put us in par with live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Pretty sure lores got updated to not boost crit dmg.(without a descrip update as so often is done)
    That would explain my tests done in game, with crits hitting for 1k less than on live. I will have pics when Lama will connect to show the difference between Lama and live spell power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    So what I expect from the nhancments was more spell
    I was expecting some spells borrowed from druids

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    But instead we got:
    Nerfed crit dmg
    Nerfed spell power (tho wizards got boosted...)
    Nerfed equipment
    But better um positive spell power? (heh my healing spring works better then ever.. yay.)
    This pretty much summarize Sorcerer's enhancements.

    Another small thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by btolson View Post
    4) Boring design.

    -These 4 trees could easily have been done as a single tree (which is what I was expecting, frankly), that requires you to make a choice of element when starting it out and then everything else is a Multi-Choice Selector where you can only choose the option for your element (this is actually one of a few places that Multi-Choice Selectors actually belong). Like how several parts of the Draconic Incarnation ED are designed. You would then ideally be free to dabble in a second, General, tree or a distinctly different tree (like Acolyte of the Skin, which I was also expecting to see).
    As I wronte in my Survey, these trees are so BORING. They are all EQUAL. ZERO CHANGES from one to another. SLAs sharing coolding? What's the point? Make one tree with multi-choice selector as suggested above or give each savant something cool.

    What I would do:

    Give each of the savant one of the other class' spells:

    Air savant: Storm of Vengeance
    Cold savant: Mantle of the Icy soul/Ice flowers
    Earth savant: Earthquake
    Fire savant: Body of the sun

    Make them T5 or better T4.

  14. #54
    Community Member darthhento's Avatar
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    Are you ******* kidding me?!? Why the **** is the highest damage arcane caster being nerfed into oblivion? SORCS NEED TO DO MORE DAMAGE than any other arcane casters, not the least. Get your **** straight Turbine.
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  15. #55
    Community Member btolson's Avatar
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    Some more specific feedback:

    -Efficient Metamagic enhancements should not be chained together.

    -Earthen Armor is pure garbage. Change it to PRR, DR, +HP, Temp HP guard (like on cavalry plate), or one of many many other things that a pure sorc could actually find useful.

    -Water Breathing is pure garbage. Everybody has items that do this. Everybody. Change it to something else, or remove it as a pre-req tax for Icy Prison (under the theoretical assumption Icy Prison will be made worth spending AP on).

    -Evocation/Conjuration focus. This should be a Multichoice for Earth and Water savants, at least. The former often use evocation spells, and they both have their tier 1 SLAs in the other school (i.e., acid spray = evoc, cold ray = conjure). They should have an option here on what they prefer to boost.

    -Crumbling: the on-crit passive is not very interesting for a sorc. I don't mind it existing elsewhere in the tree for those that group heavily with melees, but I don't appreciate it being among the must-pay-for Core Abilities. Something more universally interesting to a sorc should be here instead, as this is generally by far the worst on-crit passive of all 4 trees whether you often group melees or not. I sense Water and Air will become even more dominant based just on their current on-crit passives alone (assuming these on-crit passives are made to actually function at some point).

    -SLA's still cannot be freely targeted. Hard target, or they sail off parallel to the floor regardless of mouselook.

    -Why so little spell-pen?

    -Temp SP on cast enhancements: These are too meager for their cost. Essentially an average of 0.3 SP discounted from each cast, per AP. Even Efficient Quicken/Enlarge offer substantially more than this discount per AP ratio, and those are the worst of the bunch. They are also not limited to a single element.

    -Fire Elemental capstone is even worse than the rest, per the text; no misc perks at all like water's +swim (gag) or earth's slight PRR.

  16. #56
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Enjoy your neg rep while you can.... your days of giving out neg rep because you don't agree with someone are over soon.

    I shall say it again: The "new" sorcerer is a pile of SHYTE!! SHYTE!!

    There, person... want some more pictures of it for you to neg rep?
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  17. #57
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Reposting my damage tests:

    As I promised, screenshot of Lama and Live damage, with a 7 Spell power difference, same equipment and everything else:

    First of all, the almost-the-same Spell powers SS:

    Live 283:



    Lamannia 276:



    Lightning bolt, non crit, first pic is Lamannia and the second one is live:



    Lightning bolt, crit, first pic is Lamannia and the second one is live:



    Chain Lightning, non crit, Lamannia-Live:



    Chain Lightning, crit, Lamannia-Live:








    As you can see, there are:

    1) something bugged with Spell power
    1) something bugged with Spell Critical Chance, I was seeing a lot less Crits
    2) the nerf to Spell Critical damage

    that is killing Sorcerers' DPS, the Arcane cannons.



    More screenshot of Live and Lamannia damage with Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning:

    Lightning bolt - Lamannia:



    Lightning Bolt - Live:




    --------------------------------------------------

    Chain Lightning - Lamannia:



    Chain Lightning - Live:



  18. #58
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    The entire +SP per point spent in class trees needs to change. It just makes me want to ignore racial trees altogether as every racial AP spent feels like a self inflicted reduction in damage. Either need to use the current system on live of specific enhancements boosting power or simply give a set bonus per caster level.

  19. #59
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talan View Post
    The entire +SP per point spent in class trees needs to change. It just makes me want to ignore racial trees altogether as every racial AP spent feels like a self inflicted reduction in damage. Either need to use the current system on live of specific enhancements boosting power or simply give a set bonus per caster level.
    What they need to change is the total of SP granted by point spent.

    0.75 Universal + 0.75 to the element of that tree (Electric/Sonic for Air savant tree, Fire for Fire savant etc).

    Like Palemaster got them. Can't see why we don't.

  20. #60
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    I am very disappointed with these trees. They feel very lazy and boring.

    They really need to be combined into a single Savant tree.

    Add Acolyte of the Skin.

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