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  1. #21
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    Copying exactly from my post in Discussion:

    I'm really really disappointed.

    Let's go to the facts:

    On Lamannia, every point spent in the savant tree grants you 0.75 (why not 1? weird things) Spell power. I have spent:

    56 points in the Air savant tree
    17 Water savant
    ----------------------------------
    73*0.75 =
    --------------------
    54 UNIVERSAL SPELL POWER

    This may not sound TOO TOO TOO bad, BUT look at what I had to give up to get those 17 points in the Water tree:

    Improved Recovery II
    Greater Consitution Adaptability
    Efficient Maximize II
    Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    -25% Spell critical damage HUGE

    This is what I have thou:

    Action Boost: Spellpower +20, yey another clickie to use, awesome
    Electrocution: +3 Spell power on Hit, stacking 10 times, lasting 6 seconds (such a short duration)
    Conduction: 2% more damage on Critical Hit, stacking 10 times, lasting 6 seconds


    Now, if I wanted to make it like on live, without WScroll Mastery II because it's obviously missing, I'd get this:

    56 Point in the Air tree
    7 Water
    -------------------------------
    63*0.75
    ----------------------------------
    47 USP

    Less Spell power.
    -1 Charisma


    Now, let's count Spellcraft, and let's use some not-realistic numbers:

    12 Base Int
    +4 Tome
    +8 Item
    +2 Insightful
    +1 Exceptional
    --------------------
    27 Int (+8 Mod)


    Spellcraft skill:

    23 Ranks (I hope it's bugged on Lama, it's not a class skill for Sorcs) + 5 Epic levels + 8 Int + 4 GH + 2 Good luck + 1 ship buff = +43 Spellcraft bonus


    So, to summarize, a quick comparison of Lama and live now:

    Lama:

    1° set up: 54 Universal Spell power + 43 Spell craft = 97 Spell power, 8% crit chance, 100% crit damage
    2° set up: 47 Universal Spell power + 43 Spell craft = 90 Spell power, 8% crit chance, 100% crit damage

    Live:

    100 Spell power from enhancement, 9% crit chance, 125% crit damage.


    We are losing:

    10 Spell power if we invest every point in Int
    1% crit chance
    25% crit damage

    The last one is a HUGE nerf and there is no way at the moment, with the enhancement, to make up for it.


    Damage tests:

    On live, on hit with Lightning bolt, non crit is 500~ dmg.
    On lama: ~300

    On crit:

    Live with lighting bolt: 1.2k+
    Lama: 600~680

    On hit with Chain lightning:

    Live: 850~
    Lama: ~600

    On crit:

    Live: 2300~
    Lama: ~1200


    As you can see, the damage Sorcerers will be doing will be MUCH MUCH LESS than on Live. What should immediately be fixed is the -25% Spell crit damage. As you can see, I'm doing 1k less damage on my crits.


    BUGS (that will also bug reported):

    There is also something very very bugged at the moment: I tried to get the same spell power of live, and damage was always ~300 on hit on lightning bolt. May be Spellcraft bugged or something else, I don't know but it is really hurting.

    Conduction: Does nothing.

  2. #22
    The Hatchery
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    No Acolyte of Skin?

    I was kind of hoping...

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirlian View Post
    This is the end of sorceress shiradi. There is new class that will (acctually it always was) be more suitable for shiradi. Do I like the current implementation? don't know. Nothing wow me there... Well, one thing. helf dragon marked air savant is something that I AM LOOKING forward. Having played with one in the test area slightly under geared I had some respectful dmg output.
    Not at all. They'll splash 1 Wizard to get the first tier of the force crit line and the magic missile SLA. Factor in items and the sorc has a 19% crit chance verses 25% for the archmage. But the sorc has ~50% more sp and 75% of the cooldown. They'll still do more damage with Shiradi then archmage. Heck, they'll be even farther ahead now with the free sla to boot.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    Copying exactly from my post in Discussion:

    I'm really really disappointed.

    Let's go to the facts:

    On Lamannia, every point spent in the savant tree grants you 0.75 (why not 1? weird things) Spell power. I have spent:

    56 points in the Air savant tree
    17 Water savant
    ----------------------------------
    73*0.75 =
    --------------------
    54 UNIVERSAL SPELL POWER

    This may not sound TOO TOO TOO bad, BUT look at what I had to give up to get those 17 points in the Water tree:

    Improved Recovery II
    Greater Consitution Adaptability
    Efficient Maximize II
    Wand and Scroll Mastery II
    -25% Spell critical damage HUGE

    This is what I have thou:

    Action Boost: Spellpower +20, yey another clickie to use, awesome
    Electrocution: +3 Spell power on Hit, stacking 10 times, lasting 6 seconds (such a short duration)
    Conduction: 2% more damage on Critical Hit, stacking 10 times, lasting 6 seconds


    Now, if I wanted to make it like on live, without WScroll Mastery II because it's obviously missing, I'd get this:

    56 Point in the Air tree
    7 Water
    -------------------------------
    63*0.75
    ----------------------------------
    47 USP

    Less Spell power.
    -1 Charisma


    Now, let's count Spellcraft, and let's use some not-realistic numbers:

    12 Base Int
    +4 Tome
    +8 Item
    +2 Insightful
    +1 Exceptional
    --------------------
    27 Int (+8 Mod)


    Spellcraft skill:

    23 Ranks (I hope it's bugged on Lama, it's not a class skill for Sorcs) + 5 Epic levels + 8 Int + 4 GH + 2 Good luck + 1 ship buff = +43 Spellcraft bonus


    So, to summarize, a quick comparison of Lama and live now:

    Lama:

    1° set up: 54 Universal Spell power + 43 Spell craft = 97 Spell power, 8% crit chance, 100% crit damage
    2° set up: 47 Universal Spell power + 43 Spell craft = 90 Spell power, 8% crit chance, 100% crit damage

    Live:

    100 Spell power from enhancement, 9% crit chance, 125% crit damage.


    We are losing:

    10 Spell power if we invest every point in Int
    1% crit chance
    25% crit damage

    The last one is a HUGE nerf and there is no way at the moment, with the enhancement, to make up for it.


    Damage tests:

    On live, on hit with Lightning bolt, non crit is 500~ dmg.
    On lama: ~300

    On crit:

    Live with lighting bolt: 1.2k+
    Lama: 600~680

    On hit with Chain lightning:

    Live: 850~
    Lama: ~600

    On crit:

    Live: 2300~
    Lama: ~1200


    As you can see, the damage Sorcerers will be doing will be MUCH MUCH LESS than on Live. What should immediately be fixed is the -25% Spell crit damage. As you can see, I'm doing 1k less damage on my crits.


    BUGS (that will also bug reported):

    There is also something very very bugged at the moment: I tried to get the same spell power of live, and damage was always ~300 on hit on lightning bolt. May be Spellcraft bugged or something else, I don't know but it is really hurting.

    Conduction: Does nothing.
    Spell power from the trees is not computed correctly at the moment. 80 points in the tree got me just over 40 instead of 60 spell power. We are gaining crit chance. The magical training feat gives +5% crit chance. So, we now have a max 13% crit chance instead of 9%. Assuming superior lore remains unchanged, we end up with 25% chance to deal x2.5 damage, instead of the live version of a 21% chance to deal x2.75 damage. Fully spec'ed for it, you deal more damage from crits (the frequency increases beats out the loss in damage per crit), not less.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Spell power from the trees is not computed correctly at the moment. 80 points in the tree got me just over 40 instead of 60 spell power. We are gaining crit chance. The magical training feat gives +5% crit chance. So, we now have a max 13% crit chance instead of 9%. Assuming superior lore remains unchanged, we end up with 25% chance to deal x2.5 damage, instead of the live version of a 21% chance to deal x2.75 damage. Fully spec'ed for it, you deal more damage from crits (the frequency increases beats out the loss in damage per crit), not less.
    x2.5 damage? We don't get that on lama. We get x2 (100% crit damage). On live it's 125% damage. 4% crit chance doesn't make up for 25% crit damage.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    x2.5 damage? We don't get that on lama. We get x2 (100% crit damage). On live it's 125% damage. 4% crit chance doesn't make up for 25% crit damage.
    x2.5 times the base, including a superior lore item.

    As in, you deal the base damage (1), 100% crit damage (another 1), and +50% from a superior lore item (unless these have been changed. Can't transfer over my geared toons). That is x2.5 the base damage, or an extra +150%, which ever way you want to look at it.

    Yes, on crit you lose 1/4 of your base damage relative to live. On live, you have 9% crit chance from enhancements + 12% from superior lore. That gives you a 21% chance to inflict and extra +175% damage (2.75 the base damage, ). That means if your spells always dealt 100 damage on live on a non-crit, then 21% of the time you'll deal 275. That gives an expected damage on live for a base 100 spell as:

    21 * 275 + 79 * 100 = 13,675

    Verses Lam:
    25 * 250 + 75 * 100 = 13,750

    You technically deal more, overall, from the crit change, assuming superior lore still works on lam as it does on live.

    EDIT:

    As a follow-up, the description, at least, for a superior lore item is unchanged. Still +12% critical chance and a +0.5 multiplier.
    Last edited by chrisdinus7; 04-18-2013 at 05:05 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    x2.5 times the base, including a superior lore item.

    As in, you deal the base damage (1), 100% crit damage (another 1), and +50% from a superior lore item (unless these have been changed. Can't transfer over my geared toons). That is x2.5 the base damage, or an extra +150%, which ever way you want to look at it.

    Yes, on crit you lose 1/4 of your base damage relative to live. On live, you have 9% crit chance from enhancements + 12% from superior lore. That gives you a 21% chance to inflict and extra +175% damage (2.75 the base damage, ). That means if your spells always dealt 100 damage on live on a non-crit, then 21% of the time you'll deal 275. That gives an expected damage on live for a base 100 spell as:

    21 * 275 + 79 * 100 = 13,675

    Verses Lam:
    25 * 250 + 75 * 100 = 13,750

    You technically deal more, overall, from the crit change, assuming superior lore still works on lam as it does on live.

    EDIT:

    As a follow-up, the description, at least, for a superior lore item is unchanged. Still +12% critical chance and a +0.5 multiplier.
    While your numbers may actually be true, they do not correspond to the test I've done in game. I was seeing a lot less crits, really a lot, and the numbers of the crits were too low. And in any case, the -25% crit damage should be in the enhancement, I'm bug reporting that too.

    So now, there are 2 options: either both the 5% crit chance and 100% crit damage from the feat aren't working as intended or there is something really going wrong with the Spell power.

    I'm bug reporting it anyway.

  8. #28

    Default Sorcerer Suggestions

    1) Bring back the Wand & Scroll mastery

    2) Change the spell power per point in the trees to:
    a) 1 Universal spell power, bringing it in line with druid and wizard
    b) 0.75 USP, 0.75 Element of the tree (for a total of 1.5 per point to the element of the tree) - akin to Palemaster
    c) Drop the whole concept of spell power per point spent from all trees, and just give everyone back tiered spell power enhancements. This has the advantage of making racial trees more viable.

    3) Don't have Efficient Heighten require the previous 2 efficient metamagics

    4) Change earthen armor from a +1/2 AC bonus into a small PRR bonus, say 3/6 (an hp bonus would also make sense). AC is associated with dex anyway, PRR makes more thematic sense, and is more useful to a sorc.

    5) It can be difficult to build the crit line in a secondary element due to the needed points spent in the tree. In your main tree, you can use the efficient metas to get there, but in a secondary tree that is not an option.

    6)*This involves some power creep* Move the SLAs down a tier, and a new SLA at the top tier. This helps address the previous point, and makes splashing into another element more fun, as the the typically tier 1 & 2 SLAs are of limited usability in a lot of cases. I don't think it is too far out of bounds, considering the druid's herald tree is taking them from 0 to 6 SLAs, including a level 9 SLA (Storm of Vengeance, with the others being Produce Flame, Creeping Cold, Call Lightning, Word of Balance, and Sunburst). Really, at the moment, the druid SLAs are probably better than the sorc ones, and they get higher spell power due to the 1 usp per point instead of the 0.75 usp per point.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    While your numbers may actually be true, they do not correspond to the test I've done in game. I was seeing a lot less crits, really a lot, and the numbers of the crits were too low. And in any case, the -25% crit damage should be in the enhancement, I'm bug reporting that too.

    So now, there are 2 options: either both the 5% crit chance and 100% crit damage from the feat aren't working as intended or there is something really going wrong with the Spell power.

    I'm bug reporting it anyway.
    No harm in that. Good that someone is doing some in the field testing. I have been unable to copy over my toons, so a lot of what I have been doing has been on characters without gear, so it is tough to compare to my live toons. If you get the time, trying removing your lore items and seeing if your crits change (both frequency and damage). I may wander over to the treasure room and see if I can workable gear to test it myself.

  10. #30
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Thank you devs! Elemental forms!

    Active: 50 spell point cost, 3 sec cooldown, Permanent Duration
    Transform into an air elemental.
    +1 Electric CL
    +1 Electric MCL
    +10 Racial Electric Resist
    +3% Dodge
    -10 Acid Resist
    -3 Acid, Fire, Water caster levels and max caster levels

    etc, etc.

    I'd like to think that clamoring for elemental forms and some druid vs. sorcerer drama provided some impetus, but in any case...

    Thanks!!!

    [Edit: now that my flavor excitement has worn off, I have to say that losing 3 CL on all elemental schools except air, which gets +1 and 3% dodge seems pretty weak. It should at least be an equal boost of +3 air CL, and possibly grant an SLA like cyclonic blast or even gust of wind. A special air elemental knockback ability would be nice too.

    Also, has anyone tried unarmed combat in it? Because that has to look awesome, right?]
    Last edited by SealedInSong; 04-18-2013 at 06:01 PM.
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  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    While your numbers may actually be true, they do not correspond to the test I've done in game. I was seeing a lot less crits, really a lot, and the numbers of the crits were too low. And in any case, the -25% crit damage should be in the enhancement, I'm bug reporting that too.

    So now, there are 2 options: either both the 5% crit chance and 100% crit damage from the feat aren't working as intended or there is something really going wrong with the Spell power.

    I'm bug reporting it anyway.
    Yep, some sort of bug. I grabbed the full enhancement line on a pure sorc. Equipped some epic elite iron beads (for superior lightning lore) and cast 100 electrical spells. 87 were non-crits, 13 were criticals. I had a 13% crit rate verses the expected 25%. So, I can conclude with p=0.002 that there is a bug (aka, the odds of my getting results that unlucky without a bug are 2 in 1,000).

  12. #32
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    Oh and btw, stop giving us CL bonuses. That system is broken, most of our spells are capped and we have like +2000) CL bonuses. If you wanna do something, give us more MCL stuff (also useless, but we have too few MCL bonuses and too many CL ones) and more spell crit chance/damage.

  13. #33
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Spell power from the trees is not computed correctly at the moment. 80 points in the tree got me just over 40 instead of 60 spell power. We are gaining crit chance. The magical training feat gives +5% crit chance. So, we now have a max 13% crit chance instead of 9%. Assuming superior lore remains unchanged, we end up with 25% chance to deal x2.5 damage, instead of the live version of a 21% chance to deal x2.75 damage. Fully spec'ed for it, you deal more damage from crits (the frequency increases beats out the loss in damage per crit), not less.
    You don't understand! It's different, so it sucks!

  14. #34
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    i thought sorcs would have another prestige but i was sad to see only savant there.

  15. #35
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    I'll start with my initial gripes and post some suggestions later:

    Zero new PrE for sorc. bleh. Plus the other class I like bbn.. only planned to get one more.
    Only class that will get 1 pre? .meh.

    Overall: Deleted a bunch of important existing live enhancements, carbon copy the rest, but nerf some..

    EG:
    Scroll mastery/heigtening: Gone
    Energy (Spell points): Gone
    Stronger crits: Deleted from the entire game
    Subtle spellcasting: Deleted
    +Force or Repair spellpower: Deleted, huge loss here for sorcs who liked force/untyped spells.

    Capstone: Nerfed. Sure it lets you have a silly animation matching your main Savant choice, but the 20 spell power was removed, and in its place: Nothing because its been proven for years that +CL bonuses DO NOT WORK.

    Yea, Don't get it. Stalwart gets tons of new and better stuff.

    Savants get nothing interesting, and lose a lot.

    Well a buggy new, nerfed capstone, taht further nerfs yourself by lowering your caster levels and draining your SP.. Great. Thanks.

    The one good part but not really:
    Better overall spellpower? Maybe? . I mean the +.75? SPwr per point is something. Weird tho, its like, why not just 1 for 1? I mean a whole 20 Spell power when were getting so many other nerfs too would of been overpowereD? Really?

    I mean yea 60 SPwr for all types is nice, (at the cost of zero racial enhancements).. But right now I already get 70-80 for all the specific types I want on live anyways, so really not a net increase, even for my build - which is a very generalist shiradis sorc build as it can get.

    Right now yea sorcs are one of the strongest classes, but im sure this is the right route to nerf them. The enhancement pass gives you a chacne to make the other classes stronger to balance the game out, nerfing specific classes isnt a fun, nor wise way to achieve balance. Force spell power and Scroll mastery needs to be in, and they should definetely not end up with a lower spell power then wizards.

    Did a real test too instead of just relying on the numbers:
    EE VoN6, had about 9 players. Most not really geared for EE so didnt expect to complete, but gave me a chance to test my slightly higher fire resist (not because thats something savants get free, I spent I think 3 or 6 AP for +10) versus my nerfed scroll mastery.. Still survived a while since I have huge fire absorp, but eventually died due to my vastly inferior scrolls (healing for 188 versus 255 on live). So yea a situation I can guarentee my survivle for a very long time on live, I died with the new setup, not impressed.

    We went again on EH, easily crushed it since its a insanely easy raid on EH, and learned not much other then the fact Its sad the devs let the raid be so broken so long. We had 8 players, most of which were ungeared and not tuned in enhancements obvious, and thus very moderate DPS at best.. And yea velah still died fast, no one dodged breath, only a single death from a fresh20, and no eggs even spawned. Raiding in this game is pretty silly these days, especially in the older raids.
    Last edited by Shade; 04-18-2013 at 07:07 PM.

  16. #36
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Well, seems my worst nightmares about sorcerers came true...

    I have only one thing I can say about the sorcerer:



    Do us all a favor and stop trying to make up bulls**t, Turbine. Just keep the enhancements we already have, throw them in a SINGLE CLASS TREE and then add to it as needed.

    And either make spellcraft work with CHA/WIS too or just dump it... and a lot of other stuff that can just hit the trash bin... like this whole enhancement pass. Over a year to come up with pile of... bah... calling this poo, insults poo.
    Last edited by Aussir; 04-18-2013 at 07:20 PM.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Yep, some sort of bug. I grabbed the full enhancement line on a pure sorc. Equipped some epic elite iron beads (for superior lightning lore) and cast 100 electrical spells. 87 were non-crits, 13 were criticals. I had a 13% crit rate verses the expected 25%. So, I can conclude with p=0.002 that there is a bug (aka, the odds of my getting results that unlucky without a bug are 2 in 1,000).
    Pretty sure lores got updated to not boost crit dmg.(without a descrip update as so often is done)

    and thats what I got from the devs post on the subjects, crits are being locked/nerfed to 2x max, except rare/high tier enhancement may increase them, nothing else.

    So what I expect from the nhancments was more spell .

    EG:
    Lose crit dmg,
    but gain some base dmg and small amount of crit chance to achieve good sustained dps, but less burst, to achieve some closer balance with other classes.

    But instead we got:
    Nerfed crit dmg
    Nerfed spell power (tho wizards got boosted...)
    Nerfed equipment
    But better um positive spell power? (heh my healing spring works better then ever.. yay.)

  18. #38
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Do the elemental forms give crit resistance, etc.?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  19. #39
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    No Acolyte of Skin?

    I was kind of hoping...
    Me, too. I wanted to see how they did this in an online format.

    *sad kobold*

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Pretty sure lores got updated to not boost crit dmg.(without a descrip update as so often is done)

    and thats what I got from the devs post on the subjects, crits are being locked/nerfed to 2x max, except rare/high tier enhancement may increase them, nothing else.

    So what I expect from the nhancments was more spell .

    EG:
    Lose crit dmg,
    but gain some base dmg and small amount of crit chance to achieve good sustained dps, but less burst, to achieve some closer balance with other classes.

    But instead we got:
    Nerfed crit dmg
    Nerfed spell power (tho wizards got boosted...)
    Nerfed equipment
    But better um positive spell power? (heh my healing spring works better then ever.. yay.)
    I think that lores do nothing at all, at the moment, actually.

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