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  1. #61
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    @Wizza thanks for fully testing this.

    I like the elemental forms sort of, but I would prefer it if they were just flavour, and you gave us our +20 spellpower back......

    Looking at this, I am seriously considering dropping sorc like a hot potato....


  2. #62
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial_Soup View Post
    @Wizza thanks for fully testing this.

    I like the elemental forms sort of, but I would prefer it if they were just flavour, and you gave us our +20 spellpower back......

    Looking at this, I am seriously considering dropping sorc like a hot potato....

    The capstone at the moment is useless in many ways. First of all, it doesn't grant the +2 Charisma. Then, we only get +5 Spell power to one element instead of the previous +20%. Also, it offers +1 MCL/CL that is completely broken hence useless. It needs a lot of work to get it done.

    What they should do:

    Capstone: +20 Spell power, +10 Spell power to the element of that tree (so +30 total), +3% crit chance with your element, +15% crit damage with your element (the only source of the entire tree btw), +2 charisma, +10% stacking elemental absorption (Electric for air etc).

    Or there is another route, the special effect route:

    Air savant: Knockdown effect similar to Flyby with a save (25 + Half char level + Cha mod) and no absurd cooldown.

    Or the other route, give them an additional spell from other classes like Druids or Arties, possibly level 7-8-9 spells.
    Last edited by Wizza; 05-09-2013 at 03:49 AM.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post

    Capstone: +20 Spell power, +10 Spell power to the element of that tree (so +30 total), +3% crit chance with your element, +15% crit damage with your element (the only source of the entire tree btw), +2 charisma, +10% stacking elemental absorption (Electric for air etc).
    This. I love this.

  4. #64
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    Default Mental Toughness and crit changes

    Just to clarify--

    Do all sorcerers need to take all three mental toughness feats to maximize their spell critical chances?

    I was doing some feat planning for one of my sorcerers and realized the enhancements alpha would indicate that my sorcerer now needs to take three more feats he didn't have space for just to operate below the threshold he used to.

    I know it's just an alpha so far, but really?
    The absurd forum change has forced 'SealedInSong' to become 'TuskCouncil' temporarily.

    Thanks for shaking up the forums until they're unreadable and unusable instead of fixing all the bugs and releasing a coherent enhancement alpha!

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by TuskCouncil View Post
    Just to clarify--

    Do all sorcerers need to take all three mental toughness feats to maximize their spell critical chances?

    I was doing some feat planning for one of my sorcerers and realized the enhancements alpha would indicate that my sorcerer now needs to take three more feats he didn't have space for just to operate below the threshold he used to.

    I know it's just an alpha so far, but really?
    That's not actually a sorc issue. That's an over all change issue for all casters, similar to when maximize and empower became less effective as spell power stacking changed.

    I didn't bother because the SP weren't needed and the cost of a feat for the small bonus to crit didn't seem worth it to me. I think that could be increased to 2% or 3% and then they would be more appropriate for the cost of feats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
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  6. #66
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    My complaint would be that we have to spend action points on having the savant inherent abilities, that SHOULD automatically come with the elemental form at the very least because elementals have inherent powers such as those. If that is the case, could someone please confirm.
    Also, I would love to see some screenshots of the new elemental forms!

    Out of curiosity, why are people still depending on scrolls to heal themselves? Rejuvenation Cocoon is the most over-powered spell in the game, and heals at least much as a scroll without Scroll Mastery (including the temporary hit points), and it is a first-tier enhancement so it is very easy to twist. Since they gave us destinies, I rarely need scrolls.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcier View Post
    Out of curiosity, why are people still depending on scrolls to heal themselves? Rejuvenation Cocoon is the most over-powered spell in the game, and heals at least much as a scroll without Scroll Mastery (including the temporary hit points), and it is a first-tier enhancement so it is very easy to twist. Since they gave us destinies, I rarely need scrolls.
    Uh... Some people don't own Epic Destinies. If they do have Epic Destinies, there's a chance that some people still need to crawl across several other Epic Destinies to twist Rejuvenation Cocoon.

    Oh, and most importantly, you can't use Rejuvenation Cocoon from levels 1-19. Pull up the LFM window a see how many players there are on your server. You'll probably notice that about half of them will not be able to enter Epics because they are below level. So unless there's a way to use Rejuvenation Cocoon in those levels, there will still be a need to use scrolls for healing.

  8. #68
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcier View Post
    Out of curiosity, why are people still depending on scrolls to heal themselves? Rejuvenation Cocoon is the most over-powered spell in the game, and heals at least much as a scroll without Scroll Mastery (including the temporary hit points), and it is a first-tier enhancement so it is very easy to twist. Since they gave us destinies, I rarely need scrolls.
    This is wrong on so many levels. Let me give you SIX reasons why Cocoon isn't viable as only healing ability:

    1) Based on Temporary HP. If you get hit for 150+ HP when cocoon is active, you lose it and gotta wait a 12 second cooldown.

    2) 12 second cooldown themselves. Heal scrolls have a 6 seconds cooldown.

    3) It's a Heal over time effect. When I'm at 60 HP, a Cocoon is followed right after by a scroll. Else, you are gonna die anyway.

    4) Scrolls can be used on other character while not having a huge penalty on yourself. What I mean with this: use Cocoon on a 1HP friend in your party -> a mob hits you -> you are without a healing option.

    5) You need to slot Devotion to have the best use of it. Devotion comes only in Red slot, so it's hard to slot. While this is a minor problem compared to the other 4 reasons, it's still one of them.

    6) It's an Epic destiny ability. You have to: buy them, farm them and twist it.
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  9. #69
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    This is wrong on so many levels. Let me give you SIX reasons why Cocoon isn't viable as only healing ability:

    1) Based on Temporary HP. If you get hit for 150+ HP when cocoon is active, you lose it and gotta wait a 12 second cooldown.

    2) 12 second cooldown themselves. Heal scrolls have a 6 seconds cooldown.

    3) It's a Heal over time effect. When I'm at 60 HP, a Cocoon is followed right after by a scroll. Else, you are gonna die anyway.

    4) Scrolls can be used on other character while not having a huge penalty on yourself. What I mean with this: use Cocoon on a 1HP friend in your party -> a mob hits you -> you are without a healing option.

    5) You need to slot Devotion to have the best use of it. Devotion comes only in Red slot, so it's hard to slot. While this is a minor problem compared to the other 4 reasons, it's still one of them.

    6) It's an Epic destiny ability. You have to: buy them, farm them and twist it.
    Most of these responses can be countered simply.
    Why would you limit yourself to one effect with one cool down, when you could easily use both. I use scrolls and Rejuvenation, but happen to use scrolls much less often. That's like saying to use potions instead of wands.
    Also, scrolls occupy a weapon slot, which is not convenient for people who use staves. They both are fine, but if you are going to use the cool-down as a reason to choose one, then you should choose both.
    As far as devotion, not really. Most of us can get potency and healing amplification. All of which are a matter of taste, because the spell itself works nicely no matter what your gear may be


    Uh... Some people don't own Epic Destinies. If they do have Epic Destinies, there's a chance that some people still need to crawl across several other Epic Destinies to twist Rejuvenation Cocoon.

    Oh, and most importantly, you can't use Rejuvenation Cocoon from levels 1-19. Pull up the LFM window a see how many players there are on your server. You'll probably notice that about half of them will not be able to enter Epics because they are below level. So unless there's a way to use Rejuvenation Cocoon in those levels, there will still be a need to use scrolls for healing.
    This actually does answer my question, and I will grant it is a fair response which I clearly was not considering.
    However, I know for a fact that one of the complainers does have Destinies. Some of the display names have changed, but I will guess that some of the others do we as well. Which would bring me back to my original question, directed at those folks.
    On my server (Khyber), most of the active-regular players have characters over level 20 so I am a bit bias lol.

    Thanks for responding, guys!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcier View Post
    Most of these responses can be countered simply.
    Why would you limit yourself to one effect with one cool down, when you could easily use both. I use scrolls and Rejuvenation, but happen to use scrolls much less often. That's like saying to use potions instead of wands.
    Also, scrolls occupy a weapon slot, which is not convenient for people who use staves. They both are fine, but if you are going to use the cool-down as a reason to choose one, then you should choose both.
    As far as devotion, not really. Most of us can get potency and healing amplification. All of which are a matter of taste, because the spell itself works nicely no matter what your gear may be
    You first said that you rarely need scrolls, then you are stating that you can use both. Rarely is different from "could use both".

    Your point was that Cocoon was sufficient to self-heal and that you RARELY need heal scrolls.

    It is not. Simple as that.

    Also, the difference between a Potency 80 and a Devotion 120 is huge. Try it out
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  11. #71
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    Default Ugh

    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    That's not actually a sorc issue. That's an over all change issue for all casters, similar to when maximize and empower became less effective as spell power stacking changed.

    I didn't bother because the SP weren't needed and the cost of a feat for the small bonus to crit didn't seem worth it to me. I think that could be increased to 2% or 3% and then they would be more appropriate for the cost of feats.
    We're going to need all t he crits we can get, and I'm really not looking forward to having to fit these useless feats in. Way to go Turbine.
    The absurd forum change has forced 'SealedInSong' to become 'TuskCouncil' temporarily.

    Thanks for shaking up the forums until they're unreadable and unusable instead of fixing all the bugs and releasing a coherent enhancement alpha!

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by TuskCouncil View Post
    We're going to need all t he crits we can get, and I'm really not looking forward to having to fit these useless feats in. Way to go Turbine.
    Adding spell crit to mental toughness should really be worth 3%. At 1% for a feat I wouldn't worry about it. Feats are too valuable for a small average bonus.

    If a person compares that to melee weapons one feat procs a lot more crits, or compares it to spell focus +1 DC is worth a lot more than some extra spell points and +1% crit chance.

    Changing crit tables to a flat x2 with low chance means that +1% would be a +10 damage per 1000.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
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  13. #73
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    You first said that you rarely need scrolls, then you are stating that you can use both. Rarely is different from "could use both".

    Your point was that Cocoon was sufficient to self-heal and that you RARELY need heal scrolls.

    It is not. Simple as that.
    Yeah, and I stand by my point. Not sure how you are misunderstanding.
    I "rarely" go to the emergency room when I am sick. I "rarely" watch television because I have the Internet. I rarely use Heal scrolls because I have a really good spell. It is "that simple".
    Also I am pretty sure I know what I use more than half of the time, and what I do not. When I am healing almost always with one thing, then the alternative is "rare" by definition, or uncommon if you want to be technical. This is not an implication that alternative is somehow useless or can not be useful at any point in the unforeseeable future. Hope that explains it
    The whole point of my response was that Wand and Scroll Mastery was not going to make or break a non-warforged character because there is a very good alternative. As YOU pointed out, one might need a devotion item, to which I have to say would be a lot easier to find than to depend on an enhancement that may no longer exist.

    To address self-healing levels 1 to 19, all I have to say is scrolls would still be just fine. Bring a hireling or take the time to find a good healer. I realize that may not be suitable for everyone.
    Last edited by Sorcier; 05-14-2013 at 12:36 PM.

  14. #74
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    been trying out and reading about the sorcerer enhancements and is it just more is this nerf excessive? i thought this update was about GUI improvements and not nerfs of these proportions? reducing the sorc to just a fraction (50% to 20% depending on who you ask) of their original power seems a bit excessive, no?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcier View Post
    Yeah, and I stand by my point. Not sure how you are misunderstanding.
    I "rarely" go to the emergency room when I am sick. I "rarely" watch television because I have the Internet. I rarely use Heal scrolls because I have a really good spell. It is "that simple".
    Also I am pretty sure I know what I use more than half of the time, and what I do not. When I am healing almost always with one thing, then the alternative is "rare" by definition, or uncommon if you want to be technical. This is not an implication that alternative is somehow useless or can not be useful at any point in the unforeseeable future. Hope that explains it
    The whole point of my response was that Wand and Scroll Mastery was not going to make or break a non-warforged character because there is a very good alternative. As YOU pointed out, one might need a devotion item, to which I have to say would be a lot easier to find than to depend on an enhancement that may no longer exist.

    To address self-healing levels 1 to 19, all I have to say is scrolls would still be just fine. Bring a hireling or take the time to find a good healer. I realize that may not be suitable for everyone.
    Finding a slot for devotion in your gear is easier than an enhancement? Okay.

    Wand and Scroll Mastery IS going to decrease the effectiveness of casters even more. Already our DPS output is being nerfed. Now our scroll healing ability. When in EE FoT I scroll heal the reaver tank is because I can do it thanks to Wand and Scroll Mastery.

    Wand and SM is a must in every build. And casters need it even more since it's their primary healing source. (fleshies)
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  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Wand and Scroll Mastery IS going to decrease the effectiveness of casters even more. Already our DPS output is being nerfed. Now our scroll healing ability. When in EE FoT I scroll heal the reaver tank is because I can do it thanks to Wand and Scroll Mastery.

    Wand and SM is a must in every build. And casters need it even more since it's their primary healing source. (fleshies)
    I agree that wand and scroll is important, but it was actually improved for wizards, clerics, fvs's, and given to druids when they don't currently have the enhancement. Artificers, bards, and Rogues lost relative advantage with scroll and not technically a nerf (although I really don't think bards need to lose another advantage over standard casters).

    Only sorcs are taking a nerf with no wand and scroll. It's not actually all casters. Druids are coming out better off in many ways looking at higher spell power and adding wand & scroll +75% to their list of options.
    Last edited by Aashrym; 05-15-2013 at 02:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonbLF-NMZg

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    I agree that wand and scroll is important, but it was actually improved for wizards, clerics, fvs's, and given to druids when they don't currently have the enhancement. Artificers, bards, and Rogues lost relative advantage with scroll and not technically a nerf (although I really don't think bards need to lose another advantage over standard casters).

    Only sorcs are taking a nerf with no wand and scroll. It's not actually all casters. Druids are coming out better off in many ways looking at higher spell power and adding wand & scroll +75% to their list of options.
    Well, even more reasons to give it back to sorcerers.

    Anyway, this forum is dead actually. No update or any word at all by the Devs on what are they planning.

    Oh miss Genasi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
    Severlin and Severlin Online. PLAY FOR FREE* NOW!

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  18. #78
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    I think the changes are fantastic. I trained the force line just for boulder toss and wild shots and considered it pretty silly since any real Sorc wouldn't touch a force spell leveling 1-20.

    The amount of CL/MCL added to fire needs to increase to double in epic levels or add to draconic to balance out how powerful multihit procs are in ED. Otherwise everyone is going to use meteor and magic missiles.

    Meteor base hits for 32d6.
    Light damage from draconic incarnation proc chance twist adds 10.8d6
    Force damage from Shiradi adds 56 damage or 11.2d6
    Sonic damage from Shiradi adds 30.8damage or 6.2d6
    Rainbow hits for 28, or 5.6d6

    Multihit ED procs add a minimum of 34d6 to Meteor. This is before prism and double rainbow.

    This is 66d6 base damage (with 5 = 1d6) for 40 base mana. 65 mana with max/empower on live with enhancements to max/emp (and free enlarge and heighten).

    Adding any number of d6 (CL or MCL) to any other fire spell still leaves them all as irrelevant since they don't hit the final ratio of 1d6 per mana heightened, enlarged, and maximized, let alone proc chances.

    My opinion is that the metamagic selectors and CL/MCL in epic levels from enhancements should double in power for single hit spells to make them competitive with multihit spells. Or they should also enhance Draconic. Maybe a mix of both.

    Of course, the need to actually have a fire/physical/force/sonic/light/random damage meteor due to all the fire immunes...that problem is being fixed a great deal by the universal spell power.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 05-19-2013 at 02:59 AM.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tid12 View Post
    I'm glad to see you are testing Sorc enhanc

    What I would do:

    Give each of the savant one of the other class' spells:

    Air savant: Storm of Vengeance
    Cold savant: Mantle of the Icy soul/Ice flowers
    Earth savant: Earthquake
    Fire savant: Body of the sun

    Make them T5 or better T4.
    Just loved this suggestion.

    There is no need to stick just with sorc/wizz spells if you are to be an elemental! Get something that separates you from the other savants in your own elemental nature! you should be incarnating an avatar of your element of choice! Nothing less!

    Just like everyone i wish sorc had another prestige and I wish the savants were further separated from each other. otherwise make it a multiple selector as suggested!

    Just for the sake of stating the obvious (loss of spell power and spell crit is ridiculous, FIX IT!)
    Make the elemental forms worth to take.

  20. #80
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    Why limit yourself to heal scrolls and cocoon when you can have both AND mass cures/Heal spell. Meet Shiradi Sorc. 2.0

    Rebuilt. Faster. Stronger. Better. Now with blade barrier, the iconic cleric/FVS dps spell.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...erything-Build

    Sorcs have a safety net. If our enhancments are somehow inferior or irrelevant(mob immunities), we can just entirely not use them and use another classes. It's not like you need that many levels of Sorc to cast magic missiles for 5 missiles. It is what we already do with ED.

    ********

    Bigger problem partially but not fully addressed with why everyone is Shiradi and using magic missile: mana efficiency and mob immunities.

    Would entirely trade spell power per point in tree and capstone spell power for -% spell costs for that type of spell and a capstone of ability to reduce immunities to resistances. Then I could actually be a fire casting fire savant, and not a missile casting fire savant.

    This would also allow people to play DI in their savant element and not face mobs they can't damage.
    ********

    Edit: link fixed. Also mana efficiency and immunities/resists to fire I face are a raid problem, and not a 6 man dungeon problem at max level. But the change from spellpower to -spell costs and reducing immunities would tone down sorc dps in dungeons while fixing them for raids as well. That being said, as of how things look now, my Shiradi Sorc 2.0 build above completely ignoring elemental damage arcane spells is looking pretty attractive.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 05-31-2013 at 07:46 AM.

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