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  1. #121
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
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    If I understand it correctly, we now need to have Wand and Scroll Heightening (increased wand/scroll DCs, which is COMPLETELY useless on any rogue I've played or seen played in the game) in order to take wand and scroll mastery, which is mandatory for a scroll healing rogue?

    Edit: of course there's more than heal scrolls - on my rogues I also use Fire Shield, Greater Heroism, Invisibility, (Greater) Restoration, Displacement, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Tenser's Transformation, Summon Monster IV (for Rainbow), Shadow Walk (also for Rainbow), (Greater) Teleport. The one thing all these scrolls have in common is this: they are buffs/curatives and thus require no DC. If a rogue wants to deal damage he uses an appropriate weapon plus aggro reduction to apply his SA damage, and even with +3 or +4 to the DC of a scroll or wand any attempts to use a crowd control wand or scroll is almost guaranteed to fail given the low base DC.
    Last edited by Gizeh; 04-19-2013 at 12:19 AM.

  2. #122
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    I would have preferred to see Faster Sneaking in the Assassin tree.

    I would also really have liked to see more abilities in both the Assassin and Thief-Acrobat trees that rewarded you for being stealthy. I'd prefer not to have the trees gummed up with a bunch of Sneak: Get This abilities, but rather append some of the stuff in there with extra bonuses if you are sneaking. This would work fairly well with the activated attacks: they could increase the +[w] damage when sneaking, or tack on a debuff of some sort, or improve crit change/multiplier, or additional sneak attack damage.

    I like the tier 5 ability, Measure the Foe, which does this, but I feel like it comes kind of late, and doesn't do enough.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  3. #123
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizeh View Post
    If I understand it correctly, we now need to have Wand and Scroll Heightening (increased wand/scroll DCs, which is COMPLETELY useless on any rogue I've played or seen played in the game) in order to take wand and scroll mastery, which is mandatory for a scroll healing rogue?

    Edit: of course there's more than heal scrolls - on my rogues I also use Fire Shield, Greater Heroism, Invisibility, (Greater) Restoration, Displacement, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Tenser's Transformation, Summon Monster IV (for Rainbow), Shadow Walk (also for Rainbow), (Greater) Teleport. The one thing all these scrolls have in common is this: they are buffs/curatives and thus require no DC. If a rogue wants to deal damage he uses an appropriate weapon plus aggro reduction to apply his SA damage, and even with +3 or +4 to the DC of a scroll or wand any attempts to use a crowd control wand or scroll is almost guaranteed to fail given the low base DC.
    Agreed. I'd be ok if they took out the wand DC from... everywhere. Making Wand and Scroll Mastery a T3 ability and requiring Wand Heightening to get to it kills it. They should move it to T2, and then keep Use Magical Device at T4 with Wand and Scroll Mastery as the requirement.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Alright, here is my suggestion for mechanic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Current Alpha Enhancements
    (core) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area attack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.

    (tier 1) Thunderstone (1 AP): Alchemical grenade. 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage to target and dazes in the nearby area if they fail at a Fort save (DC 12/14/16 + half rogue levels + int)

    (tier 2) Improved Traps (1 AP): +1/2/3 to DCs of your alchemical attacks and magical traps. Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instad of 50%.

    (tier 3) Ooze Flask (1 AP): Requires Thunderstone at same tier. Alchemical grenade. Single target. 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage and reduces his AC by 2/4/8 for 30 secs (Fort DC 10 + half rogue + int to negate AC debuff). Cooldown: 12 secs.

    (tier 5) Time Bomb (2 AP): Requires Ooze Flask at same tier. Alchemical trap. Creates a trap at your feet. After 10 seconds it explodes and deal 10/25/50 fire and 10/25/50 sonic damage per rogue level to all nearby enemies, and knock them to the ground. Reflex DC 10 + half rogue + int to reduce damage in half, Balance same DC to avoid knockdown. Cooldown: 2 minutes.
    Scrap all of these, they suck.

    Replace with:

    (core) Bombardment (2 AP): You are able to add your DEX mod to the DC's of your alchemical grenades, and you have a chance for a grenade to return to you (based on DEX, I'm thinking straight 1:1 ratio e.g. 10 DEX mod means 10% chance to not expend a grenade). Furthermore, you can greatly increase the rate of fire of your grenades, and an even greater chance to have a grenade return to you (thinking double the chance of return, rate of fire would increase by 50% or something, 120s cooldown 20 sec duration).

    (tier 2) Mass Production(1 AP): Grenades cost 20/40/60% less parts to make and do 10/20/30% more damage. Traps cost 10/20/30% less parts.

    (tier 3) Improved Deployment (1 AP): Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instead of 50%, and the time it takes to deploy them is reduced by 30/60/90%.

    (tier 4) Fireworks (1 AP): Your grenades have a chance to proc a second effect

    -Fire: Target is engulfed in flames and takes 4d6/6d6/8d6 additional damage every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. Additional procs will reset the timer
    -Acid: Target's fortification is lowered by 5/10/15% for 30 seconds
    -Cold: Target is slowed by 10/20/30%
    -Electric: Target's saves are reduced by 2/4/6
    -Sonic: Target is stunned for 2/4/6 seconds
    -Force: Target is knocked down for 2/4/6 seconds

    (tier 5) Watch Your Step (1 AP): Multiplies the damage your mines do by 20/40/60% of your INT mod, and reduces their cooldown by 25/50/75%.
    Did no one want to comment on this? I thought it was pretty genius...

  5. #125
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.
    Rogues are the trappers. I, for one, am glad I have access to not having to search and disarm for ages for a single trap.

  6. #126

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    end game assassin point of view:

    core and tier5 looks gr8. However,I dont really like the enhancements I have to pick to get to tier5.

    SA is auto choice on each tier, rest:

    Poison Strikes: too low dc to works. Shattermantle would be gr8 if it works more often... Waiting for vorpal and then waiting for enemy to roll 1 is just wrong... Also as spell penetration is not so needed right now, its useless.
    Other poisons are bad too. Waiting for vorpal so something wont work is wrong. Ability dmg also wont work.

    Shiv: like the idea. Can someone tell me how this threat reduction works? What does it mean that it lowers it by 100?

    Stealthy: it should have something extra on rank 3. Ability to stay hidden even to enemies with ts? just a thought

    Venomed blades: additional dmg is additional dmg. I dont like AP cost. higher ranks arent high enough improvement. Either increase dmg gain or reduce ap for higher ranks to 1

    Bleed them out: yeah... no... just no...

    damage boost: its good boost, nothing to add

    critical dmg,to hit stuff: good as is

    shadow dagger: this... really trouble me. Shadow dancer got something like this on tier1 and noone is using it. Now you move it to tier 3 and expect anyone to pick it? How to change it so will become more usable? As it is tier 3, change it to some aoe smoke that blinds enemies or some deception effect. Dc needs to be changed too.

    execute: move to finish enemies during heroic lvls. At epics its a joke, specially since it got 30 cd. I cant imagine it beeing usable at epis at all

    killer: cool ability while killing trash. I dont like it though. Hard to keep it up, specially if you are suposed to dps boss. Acrobat get 25% doublestrike that can keep up almost all the time with special attack(and they get it on lower tier). Killer can reach only 20%, not able to have it most of the time and is tier 4. It is also only doublestrike effect in assassin tree.

    measure the foe: Noone will give you the time to 'charge' your assasinate. If your assasinate is not on cd, you sneak and use it within 1s. Rest of the time u dps. Otherwise you will be piking.
    I like this idea though. Maybe remove those stacks and give +5 dc boost after 2s on rank3? This way it will become more usable.

    Knife Specialization: Just wanted to say how much I like it: very much


    few general thoughts:
    If I look at acrobat from user staff point of view, I want to pick everything.
    If I look at assassin from twf point of view, Im not even considering half of the abilities.
    You want assassins to use kukris/daggers(love it). Then ofc we will be twf. Assassin tree is missing +1 to hit/dmg with kukri/dagger that other trees have. Since we are twf, maybe some bonus if we are using kukri/dagger in both hands - dmg, doublestrike, fortfication bypass etc

    Thing is: give as such enhancements at tiers 1-4, that we wont have a feeling while reaching tier 5 that we are wasting AP.

    Now I want to give some positive feedback:
    I know that people in general complain when they find something they dislike, and are silent when something suits them. I like the changes, I like acrobat though I wont be using staff. I cant imagine playing melee rog without Improved Defensive Roll.


    Finally I want to ask a question:
    Someone told me that sneak dmg will be multiplied on criticals. I find this idea cool, but cant find it anywhere, so I suppose its not true?
    trixalai \o/ xirrantha \o/ trixilai //argonessen // Trolls Lair

  7. #127
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    It would definitely be an improvement if the +X Hide/Move Silently enhancement added something to tier 3. Maybe a touch of Faster Sneaking? Or the Hide In Plain Sight ability? Or the ability to remain in stealth when opening doors/activating levers? Or a higher DC for Assassin abilities when sneaking? Or...?
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  8. #128
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
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    rogue enhancements seem nice.... I'll pick mechanic but thats my flavor

  9. #129
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khremlajn View Post

    Shiv: like the idea. Can someone tell me how this threat reduction works? What does it mean that it lowers it by 100?
    As I understand it, threat is basically just a tally of your damage measured against that of everyone else. Whoever has the most, gets aggro. So if I hit a monster for 100 damage, and you hit it for 150, you should get aggro.

    Now, incite bonuses from items, enhancements, and Intimidate tack on a multiplier to this, so if I have 50% Incite, and we both hit the monster for 100 damage, I'll gain the aggro with a virtual total of 150.

    Threat reduction works in the same way. In this case, rather than applying a multiplier, the ability simply knocks a chunk off of your aggro total.

    What this means, however, is that if you are dealing much more damage than anyone else, it won't help you.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    As I understand it, threat is basically just a tally of your damage measured against that of everyone else. Whoever has the most, gets aggro. So if I hit a monster for 100 damage, and you hit it for 150, you should get aggro.

    Now, incite bonuses from items, enhancements, and Intimidate tack on a multiplier to this, so if I have 50% Incite, and we both hit the monster for 100 damage, I'll gain the aggro with a virtual total of 150.

    Threat reduction works in the same way. In this case, rather than applying a multiplier, the ability simply knocks a chunk off of your aggro total.

    What this means, however, is that if you are dealing much more damage than anyone else, it won't help you.
    Then the use for shiv I see is: if your weapon produce aoe effect and it attract crowd agro, you can clear it.
    Well... I guess im better off with diplomacy, but i understand not everyone can keep t high
    trixalai \o/ xirrantha \o/ trixilai //argonessen // Trolls Lair

  11. #131
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhgiant View Post
    Agreed. I'd be ok if they took out the wand DC from... everywhere. Making Wand and Scroll Mastery a T3 ability and requiring Wand Heightening to get to it kills it. They should move it to T2, and then keep Use Magical Device at T4 with Wand and Scroll Mastery as the requirement.
    I gave a suggestion on a bug report asking for Wand Heightening T3 to allow us to use full Int to determine wand DC (wis for cleric/fvs, cha for bards). So, at tier 1/2 it give a small boost, but on T3 it will be 10 + spell level + Int. Will not be an awesome DC, but might work better on Heroic and on epic normal.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  12. #132
    Community Member Niflheimr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyCide View Post
    The Alpha version of Thief Acrobat would totally break my rogue build. Heh, any of the trees would break my rogue build, completely.
    Same for me, instead i'm using Khopesh.. Half Orc Strenght rogue build don't gain anything here, and all the halfling build with 50+ dex, will gain a lot of damage ...

  13. #133
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niflheimr View Post
    Same for me, instead i'm using Khopesh.. Half Orc Strenght rogue build don't gain anything here, and all the halfling build with 50+ dex, will gain a lot of damage ...
    TA offers Haste Boost and Subtle Backstabbing; something which should be interesting for any rogue who uses weapons.
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  14. #134
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niflheimr View Post
    Same for me, instead i'm using Khopesh.. Half Orc Strenght rogue build don't gain anything here, and all the halfling build with 50+ dex, will gain a lot of damage ...
    Because your horc strength rogue really needs to gain more damage right now. Jesus christ people, really? Some builds might not need 60+ STR now and this is bad, how? You won't really lose any damage, it's just dex people that will gain some. How exactly is that bad or pigeon holing or whatever phrase you people use now.

    Currently, on live, you either get STR or you get called gimp. Indeed, that's not pigeon holing, but allowing people to do damage with either STR or DEX is? I'm not seeing the logic here.

    And besides, STR is still stackable much higher than dex is (rage, primal screen, titan grip, barb past lives, etc), and you get *1.5 if you're using THF, which wasn't mentioned for dex at all, and it gives you tactical feat DCs. And you want more now, just because DEX builds might get another 5 damage per hit, and be only 20 damage per hit behind you? Really?

    My ****** DEX rogue can push 40 STR and I only started with 14 and never put any level ups in it, and don't even have the best STR gear available, nor do I use any short-term buffs apart from tenser's.
    At the same time, I have trouble hitting 50 DEX, and I started with 16 and put all my level ups into it, and am missing a grand total of two dex from max possible that's sustainable without short term buffs. And all I get for it is some AC which doesn't work in EE anyway, and some reflex save, which is neat at best, because I don't have to wear a superior parrying item a STR rogue might have to.

    Boo ****ing hoo.

  15. #135
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    I received an error when trying to bug a few things in game so I'm going to include them here with my feedback since I'm tired of trying to get it to work...

    Bugs:
    Staff specialization does not display its effects in the inventory screen, and my brief testing made it appear that it wasn't working at all.

    Vault and Staff lunge currently share a cooldown timer, this may be by intent, but I don't really see why so I suspect it's a bug.

    Stuff that appears to be missing:
    Item defense
    Movement speed bonus (Acrobat)
    Cheat death


    Negative Feedback:
    Shadow Dodge seems really awful, other classes get dodge passives, we get to get dodge if we're willing to open ourselves up to getting crit into a pile of mush. I can't ever see spending points for that.

    Cartwheel charge and Followthrough are both very lacking and feel more like traps than abilities. Maybe I'm wrong and a lot of people tumble all the time (Or more likely I just lag too much to appreciate it), but I've never seen it as a useful feature and more just a clunky mechanic that gets you killed while doing no damage. It feels like since release there has been this disconnect between the devs and the players where the devs think everyone is tumbling and dodging around, and the players are just taking ray spells/special attacks in the face and wishing that at least on that mechanic the devs had decided to go with pen and paper. If there's a secret to bad latency tumbling I'd love to hear it, it's been several years of negative level sound effects followed by me yelling at the monitor and re-contemplating if the awesome content of ddo is really worth its brand of arbitrary punch-you-in-the-face style difficulty.

    Staff lunge is terrible, I had trouble hitting more than one character with it and the tool tip really made it sound like something awesome rather than a small hop forward with a tiny (if any) AoE. Making this actually lunge you a goodly distance and stop at your target would be pretty awesome, right now I'm definitely planning on skipping it.

    Acrobat abilities are way too expensive. We pay double for the exact same staff passives Henshin Mystic gets (I'm hoping this is just a bug), and we have a pile of active abilities (Lunge, sweep, quick strike) with multiple tiers that cost 2 points a tier and require each other. Reduce the staff passives (other than specialization) to be in line with Henshin Mystic, remove the interdependence of the actives and either reduce the cost or average out the ranks somehow. Right now this entire tree is prohibitively costly which is especially sad since it's not very good, you'd get way more damage going assassin while also getting better utility/debuffs, it seems like someone forgot that quarterstaves are a terrible weapon choice for a class built around an innate damage proc (SA) and were somehow worried they were spoiling us with all this attention.

    Right now it just feels like you're paying more and getting less, this is already a very "concept character" tree, it shouldn't pay through the nose just to be a flashy less effective rogue.

    Positive Feedback:
    Thank you so much for vault, it is everything I've ever wanted since first watching jealously as a monk abundant stepped.

    Sweeping strikes seems pretty nice, I'm a little worried about the disconnect between a dex based tripper and a str based tripper. A passive that allowed us to apply dex instead of strength to any trip ability would solve that. Regardless, this is a nice ability although I need to take it for some more thorough testing at some point.

    I really like the new enhancement system as a whole, it makes for some tough choices and interesting character builds. I'm excited to see what it looks like as you get closer to releasing it.

    Suggestions:
    I'd love to see acrobats have at least something that could make someone helpless. Ideally having quick strike make prone opponents helpless until they stand would be both thematic and effective while still difficult to pull off against many opponents and impossible against any that can't be knocked prone.

    Give some passive ability that allows acrobats to treat prone opponents as no longer sneak attack immune and reduced in fortification, otherwise it feels like 12 points in assassin is a required choice at this point. I personally would have rather seen sneak attack immunity be removed from the game, we already have a fortification mechanic.

    Add a passive movement speed bonus to the core ability cartwheel charge. It's currently a terrible tier compared to the rest of them, and giving it movement speed would make me seriously consider going full rogue.

    Add cheat death to follow through. Follow through is a pretty lack luster capstone. In most people's eyes this wouldn't change that, but it would give cheat death a home. I'd say make it a short duration (Duration granted decreases dramatically with each death avoided until it no longer works at all) 100% reliable buff that you gain on a tumble, so when you die despite tumbling at least you can get back up afterwards.



    Overall I do definitely like the flavor of the acrobat tree, I'd just like to either see it be more effective or cheaper so you can dip more into assassin to shore up its lack of overall effectiveness.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infatum View Post
    I received an error when trying to bug a few things in game so I'm going to include them here with my feedback since I'm tired of trying to get it to work...

    Staff lunge is terrible, I had trouble hitting more than one character with it and the tool tip really made it sound like something awesome rather than a small hop forward with a tiny (if any) AoE. Making this actually lunge you a goodly distance and stop at your target would be pretty awesome, right now I'm definitely planning on skipping it.
    Lunge does not move for you, you have to be moving as you lunge forward.

    Hold your forward button when lunging and it will be different.

    That said I still don't think the ability is worth taking.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid View Post
    Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.
    Good idea, it would fit perfectly with the acrobat theme.

  18. #138

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    Its the bottom of the 9th, one out (alpha) and chicken little is two runs ahead.
    There is a wizard on first base, and a sorcerer on second base.
    The Devs are the home team, and time out has been called.

    Will the Devs pull it off, or will they lose the game to chicken little?



    Speaking as someone who has played every class and race the old fashion way,
    I am distressed and upset at the current events playing out in this enhancement alpha.


    You, the Devs, are about to implement a nerf to every class in the game except two.
    That is a pretty strong charge, let's talk it over.


    Archmage wizards probably need some more flexablity.
    Other than that, the arcane powerhouses (Sorcerer and Wizard) almost always come out on top.

    The enhancements for the melee is coming along, until one considers that melees exist in
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis
    with other classes. When those classes suffer, the melee classes suffer.

    Most melees have gotten to the point of realizing that sorcerers and wizards often don't care.
    That is why we melees carry haste clickies, haste potions, and melee aclarity items.
    That is why we melees carry permanent blur items.
    We can get along if we have to without them.

    But we melees have another Symbiosis, a strong greater one that is much more important.
    If this group is weak, we melee are also weak.
    It is the group of classes that can cast mass curative spells.

    This group includes Bards, Druids, Clerics, and Favored Souls.
    The games fate and destiny are interwoven with their destiny.

    These four classes have some else in common.
    All four of them currently only have tier two prestige classes.
    Since three tier should exists, one can obviously concluded that each of these classes
    should be increased in enhancement power by 50% during this enhancement update.

    Bards also suffer as already needing upgrades in many forms.
    They sit at the bottom of all the classes, needing much love.
    I will not list in detail what should be changed as you the Devs already have my very
    details notes on the subject documented for later access.

    While some will say, the spellsinger looks kinda nice, I say you have a long way to go.
    The bard needs a lot of work, you know what it is, do it.


    Fifty percent is a lot of power addition.
    Fear is the original sin.
    Be bold, be creative, show us how smart you can be.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    <snip>
    This is rogue feedback how?
    Playing since June 2010

  20. #140
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khremlajn View Post
    Then the use for shiv I see is: if your weapon produce aoe effect and it attract crowd agro, you can clear it.
    Well... I guess im better off with diplomacy, but i understand not everyone can keep t high
    Diplomacy basically works the same way as this ability does, but (I think) it also comes with a short duration effect that removes aggro from you entirely. If it works like the opposite of intimidate, what happens is you click Diplo, push aggro away from you onto anyone else nearby while also reducing your aggro with the affected targets by X amount, and gain a threat reduction applied to your damage for a short duration. The first effect only lasts a few seconds, so if you still have more aggro built up than everyone around you, your enemies will start pounding on you again in a few seconds.

    Shiv would give you a second source for aggro reduction (a third, really, if you also count Bluff), and something to stack with Diplomacy to ensure you either don't grab aggro, or can shed it when you do.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

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