Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    *looks around* I don't know...
    Posts
    2,812

    Default Feedback on the enhancement system

    It's been pointed out that language is the main reason of hostility between the defenders and the detractors of the pass.

    So I would ask those who have issues with the pass to voice them here, with numeric values when it applies and as neutral as possible language when it's a none quantifiable problem.

    I'll start:

    - 17 ap in racial core seems far too expensive to unlock racial class tree, specially seen how we need 41 points to max a class tree. 22 points to play around is not enough.

    Racial tree should be a lot cheaper, or even free to access, seeing how we are losing a class tree to get it anyway.

    - Spellcrafting, heal, repair and perform. While in theory it's great idea to give some of those skill a use, it is very constrictive for many builds to fit enough int to get those skills. This is particulary true of classes with low skill points to begin with (clerics, Ftr, sorcs...) and multi-class builds that have fewer points to allocate.

    The idea was probably to free enhancement points, but it will end up as stat tax, which is less easy to re-set and comstumize then enhancements. Either increase skill points by one to all classes or have these new skills removed, mayne builds c=won't be able to afford these rather vital skills as they are now.

    - "Clikie" abilities, while one of the things I like about the pass is the addition of new skills and powers, far too many are short lived buffs or attacks on variable cooldowns. While some builds and classes do not posses many things to keep track off, others like cleric/FvS, multi-class and so on already need to track several skills.

    I believe that tying skills given in a tree to a spell or other already existing tactic "clikie" ability or making the buffs be passives would be a better idea.


    Add what you have to say, keep civil and polite.
    "Pike or do not. There is no lag."

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    399

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeafeningWhisper View Post
    - Spellcrafting, heal, repair and perform. While in theory it's great idea to give some of those skill a use, it is very constrictive for many builds to fit enough int to get those skills. This is particulary true of classes with low skill points to begin with (clerics, Ftr, sorcs...) and multi-class builds that have fewer points to allocate.

    The idea was probably to free enhancement points, but it will end up as stat tax, which is less easy to re-set and comstumize then enhancements. Either increase skill points by one to all classes or have these new skills removed, mayne builds c=won't be able to afford these rather vital skills as they are now.
    Just to expand on this point, many of those classes lack the skills pertinent to their spells.

    Sorcerers had no reason to have a skill used to repair mechanical objects as a class skill. But when new functionality is added to that skill, making it so that Repair now represents one's familiarity with magic used to heal War Forged, it becomes necessary to reevaluate ~why~ the class did not have access to this skill, or sufficient skill points to invest in it.

    Similarly, Bards lack the class training in a skill that would allow them to set bones and bandage injuries. But when the Heal skill suddenly transforms from representing that, into a magical understanding of how to use curative spells to heal people it becomes natural for Bards to be able to train efficiently in this.

    Just like when the 'social skills' had a major revision to the way that they functioned, and Paladins were granted class access to the Intimidate skill based on the new way that the skill functioned, this change necessitates revisiting some of the core aspects of skills. Such as what classes need to be able to access them, and just how many skill points per level certain classes really need (i.e. divines and sorcs).
    Last edited by RedHost; 04-17-2013 at 04:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    *looks around* I don't know...
    Posts
    2,812

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    Just to expand on this point, many of those classes lack the skills pertinent to their spells.

    Sorcerers had no reason to have a skill used to repair mechanical objects as a class skill. But when new functionality is added to that skill, making it so that Repair now represents one's familiarity with magic used to heal War Forged, it becomes necessary to reevaluate ~why~ the class did not have access to this skill, or sufficient skill points to invest in it.

    Similarly, Bards lack the class training in a skill that would allow them to set bones and bandage injuries. But when the Heal skill suddenly transforms from representing that, into a magical understanding of how to use curative spells to heal people it becomes natural for Bards to be able to train efficiently in this.

    Just like when the 'social skills' had a major revision to the way that they functioned, and Paladins were granted class access to the Intimidate skill based on the new way that the skill functioned, this change necessitates revisiting some of the core aspects of skills. Such as what classes need to be able to access them, and just how many skill points per level certain classes really need (i.e. divines and sorcs).
    True, I was explaining to a friend how my PM was going to invest in Heal to boost his negative energy and I could *hear* him turn his head like a confused puppy over chat.

    The changed skills need rethinking, my druid might invest into Perform for the sonic spell power, but he's not splashing bard to do so...
    "Pike or do not. There is no lag."

  4. #4

  5. #5
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    *looks around* I don't know...
    Posts
    2,812

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Wizards clearly need Heal as a class skill.
    I was going more among the lines of "wizards really shouldn't be getting Heal, at all".

    Heal giving negative energy was probably meant to help Clerics/FvS negative energy spells, but PM also use this line of spells making it a wanted skill for them.

    Like Perform giving sonic spell power was meant to help Spellsinger, yet Druid would benefit from this too.

    The new skills are not fully fleshed out in their use, I think they need to be either more accesible or have less impact.


    I just thought of something, how about the following feat:

    Masterful Spellcrafter
    Requires: Spellcrafting, min lvl 3

    Allows the use of which ever is higher, int, wis or cha for the Spellcrafting skill.
    Grant training on one of the skills giving spell Power as a class skill.
    Last edited by DeafeningWhisper; 04-17-2013 at 05:25 PM.
    "Pike or do not. There is no lag."

  6. #6
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    461

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Wizards clearly need Heal as a class skill.
    I disagree. I really do not think that this is clear at all.

    The reason for this is that Wizards did not have any kind of Positive or Negative spell power enhancements before. Instead they had the Pale Master PrE. Granted we have not seen the Wizard Trees yet, but I do not see any reason why this would not still be the case. A great deal of the spell power from enhancement lines is being shifted to skills. But the difference between cross-class and class skills only comes out to a 12 point difference. Since the Wizard did not have any Negative enhancement lines before I do not 'clearly' see any reason for them to have Heal as a class skill just so that they can get these 12 Positive and Negative Spell Power. Instead the Pale Master Tree can handle their lack in this area, just as it did before, by providing something like 1:1 AP:Universal Spell Power and 1:1.5 AP:Negative Spell Power. That would make for a much larger difference than the 12 points lost from not having Heal as a class skill.

    But, as I said, this is without seeing the PM Tree. And working under the assumption that things will work in a carefully planned and premeditated way. Which, after seeing the Cleric Trees, I am starting to wonder if such assumptions are on the optimistic side.


    By the same reasoning, an argument could be made for why Sorcerers should have Repair, Sorcerers Wizards and Druids should have some way to get Sonic Spell Power, and Bards should have Heal. These things all existed in their Enhancements before the change Now those Enhancements have been at least partially split out into skills. And so the skills that they have been pulled out into should match with the current Enhancement lines.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post
    By the same reasoning, an argument could be made for why Sorcerers should have Repair, Sorcerers Wizards and Druids should have some way to get Sonic Spell Power, and Bards should have Heal.
    Sorcerers definitely should get Repair, and Bards should definitely get heal. (Bards should have heal on live. Anyone with cure spells should have heal.)

    The reason is because all classes should get their self-healing spell power skills natively.

  8. #8
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    2,585

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Sorcerers definitely should get Repair, and Bards should definitely get heal. (Bards should have heal on live. Anyone with cure spells should have heal.)

    The reason is because all classes should get their self-healing spell power skills natively.
    No. I don't see why. Bards should have (and I expect they will have) other mechanics for increasing positive spell power. Palemasters are also likely to have a way to increase negative spell power. And if sor/wiz guys don't get repair - I guess they could use a nerf anyway.

  9. #9
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    *looks around* I don't know...
    Posts
    2,812

    Default

    Just checked wizard trees, I have to say I can make a way more fun PM build in Lamland.

    Been Drow actually gives me a nice SLA in Darkfire.
    "Pike or do not. There is no lag."

  10. #10
    Community Member Seikojin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    gamertown usa
    Posts
    6,940

    Default

    Individual AP costs will be changed much later. For now make suggestions on what you want it to be. They can't make the changes and have enough time for a proper internal check before posting to Lama.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload