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  1. #1
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Default I pay so I can play, not pay so I can "win"

    I have limited time to play this game. And the last thing I want to do with my limited time is run the same quest 100x in search of an item. That is very boring to me.

    I can't think of any game where I complete a level or a mission, and immediataly turn around and run it again 10 more times. If the game is particularly good, I may come back to that game and play it all the way through again 6 months or a year later (i.e. TR). That is fun for me.

    But grinding out the same quest is not fun for me... Never has been...

    So I just play the game, work on getting exp and favor and plat from varied different quests. During this time, I'll pick up a few items by chance and then I usually buy a few more items off the plat AH... When I decided I wanted a planar gird or a bloodstone, I never even once thought about grinding out Xorian Cipher or the Desert rares. I just played multiple different quests and saved up to buy them off the AH.

    Of course, the absolute top notch items were out of my reach... I've never been particularly plat-rich, even after all these years. I don't think I've ever had 2.1 million plat on single character. and the absolute top-notch stuff doesn't show up on the plat AH anyway.

    However, with the advent of the ASAH, I can now buy a few top-notch items for cash, and continue to play the game the way I like.

    So thank you for grinding out those quests for me. You have extra time and patience; I have extra cash. Thank you for helping me pay to play.

    Don't worry that I'm bypassing the game with cash. By paying for this items, I've actually opened up more of the game for myself. I feel comfortable spending my time TRing again, instead of spending my limited time at cap grinding out 1 or 2 quests for 1 or 2 items. My guys still at cap are little bit stronger now, so I feel more comfortable joining Epic Elite LFMs for fun, and they contribute more in EH raids.

    I still have plenty to do that's for sure... I almost wish the devs would slow down with the changes... I used to have 5 main characters I played, now I'm down to only 3 because it's hard to keep up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  2. #2
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Its kind of ironic, because people are rewarding them financially for designing enough irritation into the game to the point where people are willing to pay to bypass the irritating design.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-16-2013 at 01:18 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #3
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    Glad to hear you are enjoying playing the game your way.

    nothing to see here but another happy customer...moving along now.

  4. #4

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    Wholeheartidly agree! Very well said! I have argued this "pay-to-win" **** for a very long time. We aren't winning anything...you don't have to buy it if you don't want to, but for some people who may not have lots of time for farming, or who HATE farming (me) or really dislike a certain part of the game (stone of xp...ty so much!) we have options.

    I still won't get raid loot, as I don't raid, but I have many more viable options now to get what i need/want, make my character more fun to play, and I did it without having to run a quest so many times I no longer want to see it, or wasting time that I could be using progressing my character and actually running quests.
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  5. #5
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Welcome to the darkside. That line I was talking to you about earlier regarding this issue, has been crossed.

    Cookies are on the left.

    You see, part of the reason they need to make the game so grindy is because thats how they encourage people to take the pay option, instead of the play option. This began when they ramped up TR XP required to the arbitrary amount of 4.3m and then allowed people to pay to mitigate that. When people showed massive support for this, they never looked back. Each item in the store, as well as shards - the ability to pay for loot directly - were designed to mitigate grind. Its kind of ironic, because people are rewarding them financially for designing enough irritation into the game to the point where people are willing to pay to bypass the irritating design.
    .

    Sorry Chai, you failed at reading on this one.

    You will note that he gives examples of the grind going back several years before TP/AS existed. Even your TR XP example pretty much predated "p2W" solutions.

    The other stuff is just more examples newer versions of the old mechanic. Hell, its easier to get the new epic stuff by grinding than it was to get the old "pre-P2W" epic stuff by grinding.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its kind of ironic, because people are rewarding them financially for designing enough irritation into the game to the point where people are willing to pay to bypass the irritating design.
    This. My guess is pretty much no one would use the ASAH to look for stuff like dragon helms if they weren't put at the pitful droprate they have.
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  7. #7
    Community Member ThePrincipal's Avatar
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    Better yet, you don't have to grind AND you don't have to pay. You can just play for free.

  8. #8
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Sorry Chai, you failed at reading on this one.

    You will note that he gives examples of the grind going back several years before TP/AS existed. Even your TR XP example pretty much predated "p2W" solutions.

    The other stuff is just more examples newer versions of the old mechanic. Hell, its easier to get the new epic stuff by grinding than it was to get the old "pre-P2W" epic stuff by grinding.
    Nope, I have the slippery comprehension feat. WHen I fail at reading once I immediately go back and read again - the second roll was a success.

    Apparently you guys were all laying in wait on this p2w trap thread for me to post so you could ninja the first incarnation of my post. Well done.

    But the OP did LITERALLY ADMIT that he does not like grind and is perfectly willing to pay to circumvent it, which is what my post is about anyhow. Nice try, but I am correct anyhow. He is rewarding them for designing enough irritation into the game to the point where he is willing to pay to circumvent that irritating game design. The support of the masses on this is ironic indeed. We have gone from providing feedback that requests less irritating game design to providing feedback that requests more irritating game design with the ability to pay to circumvent the irritation.

    My TR example is the first incarnation of designing irritation into the game (arbitrarily more than doubling Xp required to level) then adding paid methods of mitigating that same grind afterward (XP pots, xp tomes) - and how the majority support of this furthered the notion that players can be enticed to pay to circumvent any other irritating design of the game, as it will be widely supported. So no, my TR example did not predate the p2w solutions, it was the test run for p2w solutions, and it panned out quite nicely for those who now encourage them to design more irritation into the game so they can pay to circumvent the irritating parts.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-16-2013 at 01:33 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    My guess is pretty much no one would use the ASAH to look for stuff like dragon helms if they weren't put at the pitful droprate they have.
    And things like Dun Robar rings. Low drop rate + randomized stats = pita to get the one that you want and won't be redundant in your set up.
    Git off mah lawn!

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  10. #10
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePrincipal View Post
    Better yet, you don't have to grind AND you don't have to pay. You can just play for free.
    Bad business model.
    Magical Rings are well... magical. - Gandalf

  11. #11
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I have limited time to play this game. And the last thing I want to do with my limited time is run the same quest 100x in search of an item. That is very boring to me.

    I can't think of any game where I complete a level or a mission, and immediataly turn around and run it again 10 more times. If the game is particularly good, I may come back to that game and play it all the way through again 6 months or a year later (i.e. TR). That is fun for me.

    But grinding out the same quest is not fun for me... Never has been...

    So I just play the game, work on getting exp and favor and plat from varied different quests. During this time, I'll pick up a few items by chance and then I usually buy a few more items off the plat AH... When I decided I wanted a planar gird or a bloodstone, I never even once thought about grinding out Xorian Cipher or the Desert rares. I just played multiple different quests and saved up to buy them off the AH.

    Of course, the absolute top notch items were out of my reach... I've never been particularly plat-rich, even after all these years. I don't think I've ever had 2.1 million plat on single character. and the absolute top-notch stuff doesn't show up on the plat AH anyway.

    However, with the advent of the ASAH, I can now buy a few top-notch items for cash, and continue to play the game the way I like.

    So thank you for grinding out those quests for me. You have extra time and patience; I have extra cash. Thank you for helping me pay to play.

    Don't worry that I'm bypassing the game with cash. By paying for this items, I've actually opened up more of the game for myself. I feel comfortable spending my time TRing again, instead of spending my limited time at cap grinding out 1 or 2 quests for 1 or 2 items. My guys still at cap are little bit stronger now, so I feel more comfortable joining Epic Elite LFMs for fun, and they contribute more in EH raids.

    I still have plenty to do that's for sure... I almost wish the devs would slow down with the changes... I used to have 5 main characters I played, now I'm down to only 3 because it's hard to keep up.
    I do something very similar. I play the game and I don't run the same quests over and over and over and over and over again. The only difference is that instead spending real world money to buy the things that I "need" to play the game, I just don't have them.

    It turns out that playing the game without farming while not buying things with real world money works just fine.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  12. #12
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    I don't like the AS AH. But then, I don't like the plat AH.. either.

    Not that I do not occasionally buy something off of the plat AH....
    Or the DDO store...

    If I had a real job, I might use the AS AH. Or if I win enough shards and am able to sell something there....


    Although generally, I am against buying items in D&D, I soooo hate grinding... and the end game does make it difficult without nice gear....

    Plus, it really is nice to have that perfect gear set.... etc.


    I also understand Turbine needs money to kep the game going.

    So.. when in Rome....

    Yeah, I'll be buying stuff off of the AS Ah... eventually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  13. #13
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    It is what it is, we do what we do with what is. That is, hopefully what it is is not the end or the beginning of the something that might hurt ddo in the long run that is we can all argue/discuss till we are blue in the face see example ----> but turbine will make it what it is and it's up to us to take it or leave as it is.


    Peace and love

  14. #14
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its kind of ironic, because people are rewarding them financially for designing enough irritation into the game to the point where people are willing to pay to bypass the irritating design.
    I could rewire my basement to have proper 3 prong grounding outlets, but to me that is a major hassle when I could pay someone else to do it for me.

    As for paying to buypass irritating design.... You don't think the designers realize there are people willing to grind (and some even have fun doing so) without issue and make "money" by selling items, and people not willing/not having the time to grind and so will spend money to get items they want? In this aspect, the design is as such to where it it meets the needs of many facets of play styles is better than a design that only meets the needs of one group. Let alone given the 30% cut Turbine takes on the A$AH, it helps to keep profit going for them.

    These people that are willing to spend their money? Hey, I thank them. They help keep the game going. While I have my personal opinions about some of the items and prices, they are my own, nor do I expect others to fall in suit with my own thinking.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 04-16-2013 at 01:48 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Chai, if they made the grind low enough that it wouldn't bother ME, then all the powergamers would quit after a week...

    So how do they balance it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  16. #16
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Chai, if they made the grind low enough that it wouldn't bother ME, then all the powergamers would quit after a week...

    So how do they balance it?
    I would expect an answer of "release content faster." But I bet we can all see where this line of thinking will devolve the thread.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    I would expect an answer of "release content faster." But I bet we can all see where this line of thinking will devolve the thread.
    I gather you have never seen "Altered States", then?
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  18. #18
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    For a second there I thought I was going to see something different.

    It is nice to be able to buy things isn't it? People love to buy things. People love to sell things. Good to be able to throw your wallet out there and get what you like. Feels good too. Be proud to buy your way to power. Post it for all to see my friend.

  19. #19
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    I could rewire my basement to have proper 3 prong grounding outlets, but to me that is a major hassle when I could pay someone else to do it for me.
    Not even remotely similar - we are talking about entertainment, not safety concerns, bringing buildings up to code, or modifying for use of modern devices. Who gets done with work, comes home, and then decides to entertain themselves by rewiring their basement to accomodate 3 prong outlets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    As for paying to buypass irritating design.... You don't think the designers realize there are people willing to grind (and some even have fun doing so) without issue and make "money" by selling items, and people not willing/not having the time to grind and so will spend money to get items they want? In this aspect, the design is as such to where it it meets the needs of many facets of play styles is better than a design that only meets the needs of one group. Let alone given the 30% cut Turbine takes on the A$AH, it helps to keep profit going for them.

    These people that are willing to spend their money? Hey, I thank them. They help keep the game going. While I have my personal opinions about some of the items and prices, they are my own, nor do I expect others to fall in suit with my own thinking.
    Its still rewarding them for designing irritatation into the game. This pretty muich kills off the ability to ask for less irritating game, because that feedback will turn into a more irritating game with ways to pay to bypass said irritation.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #20
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    Not that I see any issue with what you're doing, but you are simply put paying to win.

    You're buying items you'd otherwise not be able to obtain, whether it be because of time, in game economy, or simply inability, time constraints, or pure laziness in running the quests. This is paying to win by definition, especially when the goal of MMOs is to obtain wealth and gear.

    I made thousands off d3 with like-minded players buying things, and honestly I have no issue with the ASAH system OTHER than the fact that it's poorly implemented. Astral shards have no value other than to buy items. There is no weight behind the system which makes me feel that it's going to crash eventually.

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