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  1. #1
    Community Member Xiadais's Avatar
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    Default Gimp Wizard Stepchild of the Juggernaut?

    Previous to a couple months ago, I had quit DDO because of a combination of factors including guild leadership and the expansion. I am sure none of the forum folk know me, but I am nevertheless back to DDO now.

    The reason I explain this is because I have been looking to TR my Warforged barbarian into something a bit more... survivable... in the current state of the endgame..., that uses most of the equipment I have on him. When I saw the Juggernaut build, I fell in love with it, but recently it has come to my attention that it is extremely mainstream, and perhaps overused. Because I do not like doing what everyone else does, I decided to make a variant that was wizard-based. It then came to my attention that there are already gobs of Juggernaut variants... Nevertheless, I will propose my perhaps-gimp Wizzernaut (or something like that) for the Forum Folk to enjoy by critiquing, picking apart, and trolling in a manner that is completely valid.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Tulkarr Gyudel
    Level 25 Lawful Neutral Warforged Male
    (2 Monk \ 6 Ranger \ 12 Wizard \ 5 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 484
    Spell Points: 983 
    BAB: 13\13\18\23
    Fortitude: 19
    Reflex: 16
    Will: 15
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
    (34 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 25)           (Level 25)
    Strength             16                 26                   26
    Dexterity            14                 16                   18
    Constitution         18                 22                   24
    Intelligence         12                 14                   17
    Wisdom               10                 13                   14
    Charisma              6                  9                    9
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 2
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 2
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 2
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 2
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 2
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 2
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 6
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 6
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 6
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 6
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 6
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 10
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 10
    +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 10
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 10
    +4 Tome of Strength used at level 14
    +4 Tome of Constitution used at level 14
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 25)          (Level 25)
    Balance               2                  4                    9
    Bluff                -2                 -1                    4
    Concentration         4                  7                   12
    Diplomacy            -2                 -1                    4
    Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Haggle               -2                 -1                    5
    Heal                  0                  2                    7
    Hide                  2                  4                    9
    Intimidate           -2                 -1                    4
    Jump                  3                  8                   13
    Listen                0                  2                    7
    Move Silently         2                  4                    9
    Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Perform              n/a               n/a                    n/a
    Repair                1                  3                    8
    Search                1                  3                    8
    Spot                  0                  2                    7
    Swim                  3                  8                   13
    Tumble                n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Use Magic Device     n/a                -1                    4
    
    Level 1 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
    Spell (1): Jump
    Spell (1): Master's Touch
    Spell (1): Shield
    
    
    Level 2 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 3 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 6 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    Spell (1): Tumble
    Spell (1): Protection From Evil
    
    
    Level 7 (Wizard)
    Spell (2): Blur
    Spell (2): Resist Energy
    
    
    Level 8 (Wizard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Spell (2): Invisibility
    Spell (2): Knock
    
    
    Level 9 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
    Spell (3): Displacement
    Spell (3): Haste
    
    
    Level 10 (Wizard)
    Spell (3): Rage
    Spell (3): Halt Undead
    
    
    Level 11 (Wizard)
    Spell (4): Dimension Door
    Spell (4): Fire Shield
    
    
    Level 12 (Wizard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Precision
    Spell (4): Repair Critical Damage
    Spell (4): Stoneskin
    
    
    Level 13 (Wizard)
    Spell (5): Teleport
    Spell (5): Protection From Elements
    
    
    Level 14 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
    Spell (5): Cloudkill
    Spell (5): Break Enchantment
    
    
    Level 15 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    Spell (6): Reconstruct
    Spell (6): Tenser's Transformation
    
    
    Level 16 (Wizard)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Spell (6): Greater Heroism
    Spell (6): True Seeing
    
    
    Level 17 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 18 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    Spell (1): Camouflage
    Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
    Spell (1): Longstrider
    Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
    Spell (1): Ram's Might
    Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
    
    
    Level 19 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
    
    
    Level 20 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 21 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical
    
    
    Level 22 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 23 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 24 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness
    Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
    Enhancement: Ranger Swamp Lore I
    Enhancement: Ranger Tundra Lore I
    Enhancement: Ranger Desert Lore I
    Enhancement: Ranger Item Defense I
    Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening I
    Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening II
    Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening III
    Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
    Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting I
    Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction I
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation II
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation III
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation IV
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation V
    Enhancement: Repair Manipulation VI
    Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
    Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
    Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
    Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
    Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
    Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III
    Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
    Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
    Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
    Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
    Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
    Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
    Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
    Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
    
    
    Level 25 (Ranger)
    Notes: The tomes listed are the ones I currently have used (but I have no doubt I could easily get the remaining +3s). Yes, I put them in a level before they are usable, so that they can apply for any potential prerequisites during the level that they are actually usable. The spell selection is an approximation of things that it would probably use.

    Other information junk that I copied over from Notepad...:

    Code:
    Warforged Self-Sufficient Melee - THF/Ranged
    12 Wizard / 6 Ranger / 2 Monk
    
    Leveling Order:
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 91011121314151617181920
    w/m/m/r/r/w/w/w/w/w/w/w/w/w/w/w/r/r/r/r
    (Alternate View:)
    w/2m/2r/11w/4r/5e
    
    Stats:
    16/14+/18/12/8+/6
    Levels in Strength.
    Extra points from 2nd+ life go into Wisdom and/or Dexterity
    
    Tomes:  At least +3 CON by level 24
    
    Feats:  Point Blank Shot, Cleave, Great Cleave, Dodge, Precision, IC:S, IC:R, OC, Epic Toughness
    Monk:  Power Attack, Toughness
    Wizard:  Extend, Mental Toughness, Quicken
    Ranger:  FE:Undead, FE:Construct
    
    Skills:  Nobody cares.
    
    Spells by Spell Level:
    1:Detect Secret Doors, Jump, Shield, Protection from Evil, Expeditious Retreat
    2:Blur, Gust of Wind, Invisibility, Knock, Resist Energy
    3:Displacement, Rage, Haste, Halt Undead, Repair Serious Damage
    4:Dimension Door, Fire Shield, Stoneskin, Repair Critical Damage
    5:Cloudkill, Break Enchantment, Protection from Elements, Teleport
    6:Greater Heroism, Reconstruct, Tenser's Transformation
    
    Hit Points:
    20 base + 10 favor + 50 epic levels + 48 wizard + 48 ranger + 16 monk + 425 CON
    + 35 FL + 27 toughness feat + 40 toughness enhancements + 10 barbarian PL
    + 60 legendary dreadnought + 45 shroud + 50 epic toughness
    = 884 HP
    
    Yugoloth potions:  Only (probably) DEX and STR.
    
    CON:  18 base + 4 tome + 2 ship + 9 item + 4 alchemical + 5 morale + 2 enhancement = 44 CON (+17 mod)
    
    STR:  16 base + 4 tome + 2 ship + 11 item + 4 alchemical + 5 morale + 2 size
    + 6 level + 2 yugo + 2 profane = 54 STR (+22 mod)
    
    DEX:  14 base + 2 tome + 2 ship + 2 enhancement + 4 alchemical + 10? item
    + 2 yugo = 36? DEX (13? mod)
    
    INT:  14 base + 2 tome + 3 enhancement + 2 ship = 21 INT (+5 mod)
    
    WIS:  8 base + 3 tome + 1 enhancement + 2 ship + 10? item = 24? WIS (+7? mod)
    
    CHA:  ear elephant
    
    Saves:
    Fortitude:  4 wizard + 5 ranger + 3 monk + 7 resistance + 1 alchemical
    + 4 insightful + 1 morale? ship + 2 luck + 2 brace for impact + 4 morale
    + 2 epic + 17 CON = 52 Fortitude
    Reflex:  4 wizard + 5 ranger + 3 monk + 7 resistance + 1 alchemical
    + 4 insightful + 1 morale? ship + 2 luck + 1 haste + 2 brace for impact
    + 4 morale + 2 epic + 13 DEX = 49 Reflex
    Will:  8 wizard + 2 ranger + 3 monk + 7 resistance + 1 alchemical + 4 insightful
    + 1 morale? ship + 2 luck + 2 brace for impact + 4 morale + 2 epic + 7 WIS
    - 4 STR yugo = 39 Will (47 vs. enchantments)
    Pros/Cons (calculated with modest gearing that I deem that I would probably be able to easily obtain):
    -No trap ability
    -No uber clickies such as Ring of Spell Storing
    -Probably infeasible UMD (but what would it do anyway?)
    -No weapon buffs, Armor of Speed, or handing out Deadly in a raid
    -Similar saves, but I believe a bit worse
    -Probably less DeePS
    +More SP (?)
    +Ram's Might
    +Lots of casted (non-clickie) self-buffs, so more backpack space
    +DDoor, Fire Shield
    +It's different
    +People look at you like you're crazy when you hit the lfm
    -People deny you from their groups because when you hit the lfm they think you're crazy

    Concerns:
    1. Are the saves much worse than ranger variant Juggernaut?
    2. Does it suck?
    3. The enhancements suck.
    4. Is it worth flagging for PrE's, and if so which ones?
    5. How would the DeePS compare?
    6. What should it use for skills?
    7. Feat swapping suggestions
    8. Class swapping suggestions
    9. Leveling order suggestions
    10. Gear suggestions
    11. "It sucks" suggestions
    12. Would it be viable in EE's?
    13. Any recommendations for what I should turn my barbarian into? (Recommendations for specific Juggernaut variants, for less-known builds, and other endgame THF things, etc.)
    14. Troll away.
    15. But bring your own darned popcorn.
    Last edited by Xiadais; 04-18-2013 at 10:44 PM.

  2. #2
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    Believe me, I understand the want to do something different =P

    That being said, I feel this build leaves much to be desired.

    It has no trap skills, less HP, fewer bonus feats, and very few good spells (artificer at least has things like Deadly Weapons)

    The build has other problems too, like wasted feats (Dodge and Mental Toughness) and enhancements (Item Defense, Ranger Lore, and Wizard INT enhancements: won't help your healing, your DCs will be unusable regardless, and the SP given for the 12 points spent will only be 20-40 sp)

    If you want a non-standard self-healing physical damage arcane build, perhaps a 18wiz/2monk Palemaster in Lich form? No reconstruct obviously, but the negative energy heals are pretty good, and you'd actually have decent spells.

    I don't think there's any way to make a decent Reconstruct-based physical damage dealer without going heavy Artificer.

    If you really want to try:
    - Only take 11 levels in wizard, the 12th gives you nothing since you're not taking a prestige class.
    - I'd drop the ability to use both ranged weapons and melee, focus on only one or the other. You won't be able to have the versitility to support both in your build.
    - Options for the other 9 levels:
    - - 6 ranger for the free feats, ram's Might, Arcane Archer for Force arrows, and 3 rogue for 2d6 sneak attack, evasion, and trap skills.
    - - 9 levels of monk for Improved Evasion, unarmed fighting, dodge bonuses, Ninja Spy incorporability, Fast Movement, and Touch of Death.

    It'll still be a gimp build, but if you're okay with that, it'd probably work out better.

    EDIT: just realized this was a fairly old post. I saw a post on the first page without replies, so I assumed it was recent, but it was just me wandering into one of the rarely used subforums.
    Last edited by Marthesis_; 05-09-2013 at 08:29 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member korsat's Avatar
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    I love the idea, what about a palemaster option? Wraith For 25%incorporeal, dodge around 20% and displacement 50% means you will be missed 70% of the times! Enough to survive with just death auras.

    Also, what about 6monk/2ranger instead? You gain 10k stars and some sneak attack damage instead of rams might.

    It may be a totally different build but considering the 2 points above I would go halfelf For the AA prestige line, rogue dilly and Human boosts.

    Thanks for the inspiration, this is something I should try!
    Last edited by korsat; 05-10-2013 at 04:18 AM.
    Avenlight - Human - 12Fvs/6Monk/2Pal/8Epic
    Avenlight - Human - 17Cleric/2Monk/1Fighter/8Epic
    Korsat - Dwarf - 18Wizard/2Monk/8Epic
    Zendark - Halfelf - 12Monk/6Ranger/2Fighter/8Epic

    Korsat's Build Index

    ROS, Argonessen.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiadais View Post
    5. How would the DeePS compare?
    Most of the Juggernaught's DPS comes from EDs. That said, Manyshot is notably absent from your feats. Without Furyshot, all of those ranged combat feats really don't do much.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 05-10-2013 at 06:09 AM.

  5. #5
    Community Member Fleckislaupir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    That said, Manyshot is notably absent from your feats. Without Furyshot, all of those ranged combat feats really don't do much.
    Manyshot (& ITWF) is free from rgr lvl 6.
    The Once and Future unbongwah

  6. #6
    Community Member muncholuncho's Avatar
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    I have been playing a 12wiz/6ranger/2rogue for a few years now its a fun build. I have search/dd/ol all in the high 60's so I can get 99% of traps. Excellent self buffing and self healing.I have redone him a few times between AA and Palemaster both are viable. Now mostly I find myself tossing a icestorm and standing in the middle of beating anything that comes to me to death.I just recently started putting time back into him for the epic lvls started in Fury then going to max Sharadi LD,Shadowdancer skip bard ed and finish in Draconic. Right now I stand at 524 HP and 1704 mana. When I get my epic lvls done should be close to 700hp and 2k mana. Flavor builds are just that man have fun with it. I do them all the time. My next flavor build is gonna be a thief acrobat druid that I might splash 2 monk lvls in.
    Lag it's what for dinner!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncholuncho View Post
    I have been playing a 12wiz/6ranger/2rogue for a few years now its a fun build. I have search/dd/ol all in the high 60's so I can get 99% of traps. Excellent self buffing and self healing.I have redone him a few times between AA and Palemaster both are viable. Now mostly I find myself tossing a icestorm and standing in the middle of beating anything that comes to me to death.I just recently started putting time back into him for the epic lvls started in Fury then going to max Sharadi LD,Shadowdancer skip bard ed and finish in Draconic. Right now I stand at 524 HP and 1704 mana. When I get my epic lvls done should be close to 700hp and 2k mana. Flavor builds are just that man have fun with it. I do them all the time. My next flavor build is gonna be a thief acrobat druid that I might splash 2 monk lvls in.
    Once again, why the 12th level of Wizard? For a build that doesn't use the prestiges, isn't 11 wiz just as good? Keeping wizard at level 11 loses you nothing, and you can get a third level of rogue for more sneak attack.

    Also, if you go a Thief-acrobat with a monk splash, consider splashing a full 6 levels of monk. The extra 4 rogue levels lost loses you 2d6 sneak attack, but the extra 4 levels of monk will give you one sneak attack back (from ninja spy), an extra feat from monk level 6, and improved stances. You can even then cut one more level from rogue and go 13 rogue / 6 monk without losing anything at all (14th level of rogue is the most useless rogue level) and then pick up a one level splash of a third class (fighter for a feat probably)

  8. #8
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xiadais View Post
    (2 Monk \ 6 Ranger \ 12 Wizard \ 5 Epic)
    12 Wizard = Palemaster in Wraith form with Death Aura.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marthesis_ View Post
    Once again, why the 12th level of Wizard? For a build that doesn't use the prestiges, isn't 11 wiz just as good? Keeping wizard at level 11 loses you nothing, and you can get a third level of rogue for more sneak attack.
    11 wizard isn't good enough. You really do need 15 minimum on these types of builds to max out reconstruct, as you're only getting max 90 spellpower from gear. And 3 rogue is pointless as its worse than 2 monk since this build is very feat starved and trap skills/open lock are next to useless in the current end game.

  10. #10
    Community Member muncholuncho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marthesis_ View Post
    Once again, why the 12th level of Wizard? For a build that doesn't use the prestiges, isn't 11 wiz just as good? Keeping wizard at level 11 loses you nothing, and you can get a third level of rogue for more sneak attack.

    Also, if you go a Thief-acrobat with a monk splash, consider splashing a full 6 levels of monk. The extra 4 rogue levels lost loses you 2d6 sneak attack, but the extra 4 levels of monk will give you one sneak attack back (from ninja spy), an extra feat from monk level 6, and improved stances. You can even then cut one more level from rogue and go 13 rogue / 6 monk without losing anything at all (14th level of rogue is the most useless rogue level) and then pick up a one level splash of a third class (fighter for a feat probably)
    I went 12 wizard because in the original idea I wanted the extra level for palemaster. I am thinking about a druid thief acrobat not a monk thief acrobat. 13 druid 6 rogue 1 monk I would only splash the 1 monk level for stances and extra feat.
    Lag it's what for dinner!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ykt View Post
    12 Wizard = Palemaster in Wraith form with Death Aura.
    Ah, well, the thread began as a Warforged-Reconstruct-self-healer, which doesn't work with palemasters since they're immune to repair when undead.

    Quote Originally Posted by muncholuncho View Post
    I went 12 wizard because in the original idea I wanted the extra level for palemaster. I am thinking about a druid thief acrobat not a monk thief acrobat. 13 druid 6 rogue 1 monk I would only splash the 1 monk level for stances and extra feat.
    Ah, I missed the word "druid" in your original post, I read it as a "Thief Acrobat rogue with 2 levels in monk", which seemed pointless to me since there's no Thief Acrobat III enhancement. Why druid though? Animal form won't work with acrobat bonuses, no? And you need druid 7 to get Fatal Harrier/Reaving Roar.

    Quote Originally Posted by atomicmew3 View Post
    11 wizard isn't good enough. You really do need 15 minimum on these types of builds to max out reconstruct, as you're only getting max 90 spellpower from gear. And 3 rogue is pointless as its worse than 2 monk since this build is very feat starved and trap skills/open lock are next to useless in the current end game.
    The builds people are mentioning are wizard 12. Wizard 15 to max the caster level of reconstruct would be fine if that's what they were going for, but if you're only wizard 12, you might as well shave off one more level to get wizard 11 imo. You get the level 6 spells at 11, the Repair Manipulation 6 at 11, and even Wand Mastery IV (if desired) is only level 11. Level 12 wizard when you're not taking a prestige is almost as useless as rouge level 14.

    EDIT: mentioned wrong enhancement.
    Last edited by Marthesis_; 05-10-2013 at 04:22 PM.

  12. #12
    Community Member skullzz's Avatar
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    12 wiz not only opens pm 2 but archmage 3 which allows for a second focus. With 12 wiz you can have evocation for the mm sla and conjuragtion for web.
    I made a melee wizard my wizard's previous life which 12/6/2 wiz/fighter/rogue and loved it.
    Web really helps with the cc even if your not pure. I would through a web then run in and swing and it was very effective.
    Also level 12 gives another level 5 spell slot so you can have reconstruct, tensor's (must have for this build), and GH non scroll.
    The mm sla would allow for use of twists from shiradi to stick things to the ground.
    Schadel TR FVS | Whathitme 2TR human stalwart tank |Whatwas TR Barbarian/Fighter--FuryoftheWild | Kpavio Monk/fighter| Whatsnyp Artificer | Skullzz all purpose Druid| Whatcast elf AM| Nobuffforu Acrobat Warchanter

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