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  1. #41
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    In pnp fighters make great archers as well. Any solution should give fighters a 10k option as well and preferrable all classes really because archery is not class specific in pnp. If they made a 10k stars feat of sorts that works for non ki builds then that would be fine.
    I think you missed his second line where he illustrates the ability as a feat selectable by anyone, similar to the way Bow Strength functions--rangers get it free, everyone else has to purchase it.

    Not a bad idea, although it has two problems:

    1. It looks significantly stronger than Ten Thousand Stars: first, it doesn't require building up Ki, and second Dex is a more valuable stat in DDO than Wis is, with Reflex saves being far more dangerous than Will, both due to the results of failing a save, and thanks to our having a lot of immunities available to counter Will-based effects.
    2. Archery already requires more feats invested than any other combat style without adding more feats to it.
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  2. #42
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    Its been a while since I stepped into this topic, but one solution that was proposed at some point might have merit in being considered again.

    From the outside, it appears that the current implementation of Manyshot has two main issues. Huge Burst DPS and the relatively low cost/barrier to entry to acquire the ability for a non-core archer.

    Perhaps a look at how the Old AC build paradigms worked with stances would be a viable solution.

    Change Manyshot to a toggle/stance, much like Combat Expertise gave 5AC.

    In the toggle/stance you get an increased rate of fire equal to the total number of shots from the old 100 seconds of normal/20 seconds of burst total, but now spread out evenly over the whole 2 minutes. Total DPS at the end of the period is roughly the same, but no longer do you have that mega burst. Makes it less attractive for swappers to jump into archery mode for 20 seconds. You could also then let it stack with any other burst effects that are available, since the starting level of the archery fire is not a 300% boost (at the top end)(going from 1 arrow per shot to 4 arrows per shot is a 300% INCREASE, not a 400%) but now more like an 50% boost all the time.

    100 normal shots + 20x4 = 180 shots in two minutes (120 seconds). Just spread it out.

    I have a heroic capped Ranger/Rogue AA, so I understand how powerful and room clearing that burst can be, but I also often had to swap to the TWF options in between. Removing the heavy need to swap gear might be an appealing thing if the delta between normal and burst were smoothed out.

    Recall too that when the Manyshot feat appeared in the game, there were literally no other ways to crank out burst damage as a ranged attacker back then, so the issues of stacking did not even really exist. SO many new feats and features are now available that relying on the old design paradigms leads to out of balance consequences.
    That's a pretty good idea, but:

    • What's the trade-off? -5 Attack isn't going to cut it.
    • What stances does it not work with? Precision? Acher's Focus? Neither of those sounds like good design.
    • Does it improve ranged DPS enough overall? It evens out their peaks and valleys, but does it bring them into competition with melees (outside of the dump burst-interaction we have currently with Manyshot).
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  3. #43
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    Hi,

    Seph, The discussion has moved on now, so I'm not going to pursue the argument about manyshot any further in this thread than this post. It's essentially a subjective matter anyway.

    Regarding 'overpowered', it's hard to put a number on it. But I think it consists in what other classes can do at a similar level. In particular, at heroic levels manyshot does not compare to the amount of damage a good caster or even melee can dish out consistently. I notice you didn't address my comparison to the Level 6 sorc repeatedly casting maximised empowered fireballs.

    I didn't say that you and Jay were making up the Dev's difficulties with manyshot. I was noting that for what you apparently want, it is in your interests to represent manyshot as overpowered. I don't agree with that evaluation, nor do I think the ability should be sacrificed. I would like to retain the ability as it is, not reduce the utility of my archer even further.

    Similarly, I haven't asked for any interactions of abilities to be disabled. I think manyshot was balanced reasonably well before the introduction of EDs, and the main problem with it consists in how it works with adrenaline and any future additional interactions.

    It is trivial to say that manyshot can be nerfed. Obviously it can. But at no point have I said it should be, they are not the same thing at all. And once again, it's an issue of perspective; I see the way manyshot worked pre MOTU (and in the current game at heroic levels) as being fine, and I think the problems with it relate to new introduced abilities which stack with it.

    So the problem is with the new abilities, not with the existing feat. If the devs are truly worried about manyshot, they need to stop adding abilities to the game which interact with it to make it more powerful than it is.

    I don't think people's envy of FOTM builds, a personal view of how everyone else should be made to play. or a misguided trust in Turbine to give us an improvement if we offer up something good we have now, are good reasons to ask for this change. But that of course is a matter of opinion.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  4. #44
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    The devs expressed their trepidation about improving archery in ways that would get multiplied by Manyshot (such as by increasing RoF) long before Epic Destinies were even a glimmer in Turbine's eye. Adrenaline just illustrates the issue better than other things do, it exacerbates it further. You can go all ostrich, and pretend that Jay and I are pushing some agenda we have against Manyshot for <nefarious purposes>, but my/our stance is a reflection of that hesitation the devs have expressed in this realm.

    Personally, I think Manyshot is fun. I like being able to go "nova" occasionally. That said, I'd much rather have a solid reason to be wielding a bow for that other minute and a half that Manyshot isn't active, even at the expense of Manyshot (to a degree) than feel compelled to melee over 50% of the time on a character on whom I've spent all of my feats on improving archery. Now, I don't ever melee on my archer, and 10K Stars picks up some of the slack, but when both that and Manyshot are on cooldown, I definitely feel ineffectual, and obtaining 10K Stars meant giving up on the build I actually wanted. EDs have helped, since Shiradi gives me some CC and some party healing. Plugging in as many secondary abilities as I could was important for the same reason, which is why I have 2 levels in artificer instead of fighter: so I can scroll Heal the party (yeah, it's useful for me, but not a necessity; and item-swapping for personal scrolling is easier than when trying to help companions in a fight), and take care of traps.

    You can argue that this is all just my experience and biases, but if you have been reading the boards for, oh, say, the last 3 or 4 years, you'll see that it isn't just my opinion, or agenda at issue here.

    Manyshot is OP because it actually does have a greater effect on the gameplay environment for its 20 seconds than almost any other ability in the game has. Spell nuking is significant, but is limited by mana (and the only times that limit is irrelevant are when you know you have a shrine coming up, know that you have to mana-dump, are seriously overpowering the content you're running, or can reasonably replenish your SP with items), and doesn't spike in the same way that Manyshot does.
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  5. #45
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    Hi,

    I guess this post means that I've gone back on my word. Sorry to those who are not finding this discussion interesting. What I wanted to was not to derail the main discussion here any longer, but apparently that's being used as an opportunity to yell that I'm 'going ostrich' as I try to walk away.

    I'm not arguing with you that balancing manyshot is an issue, Seph, nor did I say that you are imagining that or that the Devs aren't concerned. So you either need to start reading my posts better or stop pretending I've said things which I didn't. But you need to think about why the Devs do keep adding abilities which stack with it. Perhaps things are no longer as they once were, or the consensus at Turbine's end is not complete.

    Nor am I accusing you of having a nefarious purpose. As I've said repeatedly now, I just don't want to see manyshot nerfed. So all it comes down to is you and I having different ideas about how the game works. It's just a disagreement, that's all. Your honour is not being impugned, no-one is calling you any bad names, so just calm down.

    And on top of that, I mentioned in an earlier post that I think it would be good to look at ROF increases for archers, and that an equalization of that for traditional archers, 10k stars builds and artificers is desirable. Do you remember seeing that?

    I am in the same position as you with my own build; I don't want my character to be a monk to be good at using a bow. I stuck to my basic build idea for seven lives, played as a melee/archery hybrid in most content except in EEs where I was learning to solo ranged only as a shiradi. That was before I got onto the TR train for what should be a long ride for many past lives, if I can stand it.

    Now that I have made some effort to demonstrate that manyshot is not OP by comparison to other class abilities, maybe you should try to back up why you think it is overpowered compared to other class abilites.

    Even at endgame, which I've repeatedly pointed out shouldn't be the sole focus of discussion you will see casters and blitzing or fury based melees put out single attacks doing tens of thousands of points of damage. A very well built, geared, buffed character using manyshot in one particular destiny is not so far ahead of that, and only for a very brief time. So yes, it is bursty, perhaps more so than some or most other abilities, but not streets ahead. If you think it is, put some numbers on it.

    So in short, I'm going to ask you to do a few things. Read my posts better, stop arguing things I haven't said, stop calling me names when I try to quit the discussion because I don't see it going anywhere, and if you do want to go on with this, deal with meat of my argument and provide some evidence rather than just repeating the same thing (manyshot is OP) and picking at the edges of what I've said.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  6. #46
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    if you're going to compare a boulder to a mountain, of course the boulder would seem insignificant
    it's well known how ridiculous the spell damage are (tho people will never admit it since they don't want their toys nerfed to hell)
    but the issue with the OP nature of other things are a separate issue

    right now the focus is on manyshot. it's well agreed that manyshot gives you a burst of damage during that 20 seconds. from 100% increase in attack rate when you got it, to up to 300% increase to attack rate in the end. when it comes to physical combat, we all know that raising your rate of attack is one of the best DPS increase in game. haste is loved for that reason as well as the increased movement speed (which indirectly increases your ability to do damage by allowing you get to target faster).
    manyshot gives that sort of bonus, not by 15%, not 20%, but 100% start and by an additional 100% for every 4 BAB after up to 300% increase total. NOTHING in the game increase your rate of attack by that much, even at the base increase of 100%

    you need to look at manyshot by itself, on what it does, what it's capable of, and what's the impact it has. comparing it with something else in trying to prove that it's not as OP as something else is only trying change the focus. why didn't you compare it with something lesser instead? the power of manyshot is acknowledged by most if not all of the players on DDO. the fact that it's an obstacle in the way of improving overall ranged combat is how much of an impact in the game.
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    if you're going to compare a boulder to a mountain, of course the boulder would seem insignificant
    it's well known how ridiculous the spell damage are (tho people will never admit it since they don't want their toys nerfed to hell)
    but the issue with the OP nature of other things are a separate issue

    right now the focus is on manyshot. it's well agreed that manyshot gives you a burst of damage during that 20 seconds. from 100% increase in attack rate when you got it, to up to 300% increase to attack rate in the end. when it comes to physical combat, we all know that raising your rate of attack is one of the best DPS increase in game. haste is loved for that reason as well as the increased movement speed (which indirectly increases your ability to do damage by allowing you get to target faster).
    manyshot gives that sort of bonus, not by 15%, not 20%, but 100% start and by an additional 100% for every 4 BAB after up to 300% increase total. NOTHING in the game increase your rate of attack by that much, even at the base increase of 100%

    you need to look at manyshot by itself, on what it does, what it's capable of, and what's the impact it has. comparing it with something else in trying to prove that it's not as OP as something else is only trying change the focus. why didn't you compare it with something lesser instead? the power of manyshot is acknowledged by most if not all of the players on DDO. the fact that it's an obstacle in the way of improving overall ranged combat is how much of an impact in the game.
    Hi,

    Jay, I'm not trying to change the focus here at all.

    When you make the claim that something is overpowered, it necessarily opens the door to a discussion of what the standard is.

    Claiming that something is overpowered implies a comparison. I'm trying to prove that there are many other abilities which are as powerful or even more powerful. It is obvious to me that there are, and you need to account for that in your argument.

    There is nothing particularly special about rates of attack. It's just one way to boost overall damage. Similar effects can be achieved with higher base damage, more and larger criticals, etc. This is still just a conversation about damage output, however you cut it.

    What you and Seph keep on claiming about manyshot being OP is a fact is very far from it. It's your opinion. And even as an opinion, I don't think it is a particularly well supported one, at least not with what argument you've both made here.

    Also, please don't stoop to claiming that the majority of players agree with you, at least not without evidence. That is a really weak technique, and is the sort of thing I'm used to seeing when the main argument has collapsed.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 04-17-2013 at 11:59 PM.
    Astrican on Khyber

  8. #48
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Hi,

    Jay, I'm not trying to change the focus here at all.

    When you make the claim that something is overpowered, it necessarily opens the door to a discussion of what the standard is.

    Claiming that something is overpowered implies a comparison. I'm trying to prove that there are many other abilities which are as powerful or even more powerful. It is obvious to me that there are, and you need to account for that in your argument.

    What you and Seph keep on claiming is a fact is very far from it. It's your opinion. And even as an opinion, I don't think it is a particularly well supported one, at least not with what argument you've both made here.

    Also, please don't stoop to claiming that the majority of players agree with you, at least not without evidence. That is a really weak technique, and is the sort of thing I'm used to seeing when the main argument has collapsed.

    Thanks.
    no... saying something is overpowered does not mean it's way more powerful than something else. it merely means it's too powerful for what it does.

    and no, i'm not claiming everyone agree with me in saying that manyshot is OP. when i said the power of manyshot is acknowledge by most if not all of the DDO players, i meant that most if not all of the players will agree that manyshot IS powerful. whether or not they think it's too powerful is a separate story.

    i hope you're not trying to accuse me of claiming that majority of players agree with me in thinking that manyshot is OP, since i never claimed that. because that is a really weak technique as well.
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    no... saying something is overpowered does not mean it's way more powerful than something else. it merely means it's too powerful for what it does.

    and no, i'm not claiming everyone agree with me in saying that manyshot is OP. when i said the power of manyshot is acknowledge by most if not all of the DDO players, i meant that most if not all of the players will agree that manyshot IS powerful. whether or not they think it's too powerful is a separate story.

    i hope you're not trying to accuse me of claiming that majority of players agree with me in thinking that manyshot is OP, since i never claimed that. because that is a really weak technique as well.
    Hi,

    No argument that it can be powerful.

    It can be very powerful, used at the right time, with the right build, gear and technique. I've enjoyed clearing the halls of Sins of Attrition while the melee in front of me are being cleaved to death by orthons. But I've also been in parties where it's been difficult to rack up many kills because of a rampaging divine or arcane. I've also seen SDs and pallys clear that quest taking hardly a scratch, which is also powerful.

    Manyshot can also be quite weak and frustrating, at lower levels, with no other feats or abilities. People complain endlessly about the long cooldown time too. That it isn't always powerful is a key point of my argument too. One of the reasons I don't like the argument that manyshot is OP is that it's a blanket statement, and clearly not true under all circumstances.

    It's not the universal remedy for most of the heroic levels, and I only think it is arguably overpowered when used in conjunction with adrenaline from FOTW. And that is arguable, I have sympathy for people who build that way too, even though I don't.

    At this point I will say that I'm sorry, because it appears that I imisinterpreted what you said in the last paragraph of your last post. But 'most people think' arguments are generally not good ones anyway.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  10. #50
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post

    I didn't say that you and Jay were making up the Dev's difficulties with manyshot. I was noting that for what you apparently want, it is in your interests to represent manyshot as overpowered.
    What is it that I apparently want? How is that in my interest? You claim I'm putting words in your mouth, as it were, but I'm addressing the comments you're making.

    That so much discussion revolves around Manyshot's inadequacies early in the game merely serves to emphasize the problem of Manyshot: ranged combat early in the game is pretty poor, and in the middle of the game, and late in the game. The only thing that changes is that Manyshot is kind of mediocre early in the game, and then becomes very strong. Do you think anyone would be playing an archer from level 1-25 if Manyshot wasn't there, and wasn't ramping up to something amazing by mid-end game? Wouldn't you prefer for archery to be improved at all levels in a way that makes it competitive for the entirety of your career, and for the entire time that you're shooting?

    Citing abilities coming out that work to further expand on Manyshot doesn't indicate any change in stance from the devs on the issue. Not to belittle the devs, but they do release many effects that they don't fully consider the far-reaching impact thereof. Additionally, they have worked in new tech that doesn't work with Manyshot, and most players rail against such ploys, seeing them for what they are: dancing around Manyshot.

    Manyshot is cumbersome: it's one of the few abilities we have in the game (although we have gotten more in recent years) that really forces the player to anticipate challenges, or suffer through them, and is fairly torturous for newer players, or those unfamiliar with archery best practices. Do you Manyshot as soon as you get a couple of dangerous/high HP targets, or do you wait until you get to something more dangerous? Do you wait out your timer before moving on every time? So much of the combat style's power is wrapped up in this one feat that lasts for only 20 seconds of 2 minutes, and for many doesn't even show up that often. That's a problem. It's a stated problem for the devs, a problem for new players, a problem for groups (do you wait for your archer friend to get back to "full power" or not?), and a problem for optimizers (who generally view problems as an impetus to find a solution) who want to be archers, but must acknowledge that for about 80% of their character's time spent in combat they are under-performing, or that not finding a way to squeeze in Manyshot is limiting their potential DPS overall.

    What other single feat so thoroughly defines, and overshadows? What other single feat, or ability, causes as much back-bending? Ten Thousand Stars is a good deal weaker than Manyshot, and look how strong that is, how much attention it gets. And that requires 6 levels in a class otherwise not especially well-suited to archery, that necessitates purchasing an otherwise pointless feat (Zen Archery), spending a few AP, investing in Wis, while still requiring Dex, and bending your build around making it hum--trying to find ways to generate Ki, including spending a precious Twist of Fate on an ability whose only purpose is to keep you in 10K Stars. You can argue that 10K Stars is stronger than Manyshot, since it has more up-time, but its impact on individual encounters is typically less relevant, and they are certainly in the same ballpark. Yet Manyshot costs a pittance of investment--3 feats or 6 levels in a class that also grants 3 other core archery feats and additional abilities that enhance your archery (or your switch-hitting), and then requires no further investment. You don't need to contort your character around the need to generate some resource that you cannot obtain through normal channels, and you don't need to spend any AP, ED points or Twists on it at all.
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  11. #51

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    I don't really see how monk isn't well suited to archery- for me abundant step and increased run speed are the best tools an archer could ask for. So much so that I had 12 monk levels in my build before 10k* was adjusted to work with zen archery.

    Also, if you have 50+ wis, 10k* is just as much damage as manyshot over time. And the cooldown is friendlier so it probably provides more damage in your average quest than manyshot does.

    There was a post earlier in this thread suggesting that manyshot could require charges built up by ranged combat to use and I think is as good idea as any I've seen that attempts to fix the problem of manyshot abuse by melee, though I think an extension should be made that the charge is lost if you attack anything in melee.

  12. #52
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    imo, adrenaline should only work on the 1st arrow, not all 4 of the manyshot or 10k star. just like a barbarian is using it only on the 1st of the mobs he hits with a cleave.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by negativeprogression View Post
    I don't really see how monk isn't well suited to archery- for me abundant step and increased run speed are the best tools an archer could ask for. So much so that I had 12 monk levels in my build before 10k* was adjusted to work with zen archery.

    Also, if you have 50+ wis, 10k* is just as much damage as manyshot over time. And the cooldown is friendlier so it probably provides more damage in your average quest than manyshot does.
    A 50 Wis is big investment, especially when you need a 19 Dex for Improved Precise Shot (and maybe a 21 for Combat Archery, or a 23 Str for Overwhelming Critical).

    As for the tools monk brings to the archery table, they are pretty useful, but I wouldn't classify them as being that amazing. Run speed is excellent, but rangers can use Sprint Boost to cover essentially the same thing, and I find that I rarely have the Ki to use Abundant Step in quests, since it's almost all earmarked for 10K Stars, and I tend to prefer using the excess for Shadow Fade most of the time, though even that is rarely activated.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    That's a pretty good idea, but:

    • What's the trade-off? -5 Attack isn't going to cut it.
    • What stances does it not work with? Precision? Acher's Focus? Neither of those sounds like good design.
    • Does it improve ranged DPS enough overall? It evens out their peaks and valleys, but does it bring them into competition with melees (outside of the dump burst-interaction we have currently with Manyshot).
    The idea clearly would need fleshing out, but the core principle is to lower the peak/valley range and mitigate the huge synergies that can otherwise occur. Frankly I do not think it would need to many trade-offs. Manyshot, like TWF has distinct benefits in many cases, but you need to take a specific class or spend feats to get either one effectively.

    Over a 2 minute window, ranged attacks would do the same with this version as they would with the burst version. Over any shorter period of time it would lose out IF that time window contained any burst seconds. As was mentioned earlier, one of the serious challenges with the current burst is figuring out when to pull the trigger. Even on boss fights it can be tough to time - too early and you will get the aggro, too late and you might not help as much as needed. Having the feat create a constant boost in rate of fire would be cleaner and remove that timing decision from users. It would also make the ranged attacker far less likely to steal aggro in quests and disrupt all the battle plans.

    Now on the other hand, figuring out to use that burst effect is one of the nice tactical challenges archers faced when questing in groups.

    So manyshot could be a feat that does not require any activation or toggle, much like Dodge, or quickdraw you just have it. It boosts rate of fire as you increase BAB.

    They real problem might be graphical. Right now many shot does not increase the speed of archer firing animation, merely populates the arrow cluster with more shots to calculate and do damage. So the images do not change. Not sure if having a feat which might change the animation speed works well. However, if it is just a simple speed up task, this also opens the possibilities to having manyshot also increase with smaller jumps and go past the current 16+ plateau.

    Current 2 minute window - 6th to 10th = 140 shots in 120 seconds, 11-15th = 160 shots in 120 seconds, and 16th+ = 180 shots in 120 seconds.

    1-5 = 1 shot / second
    6-10 = 1.1666 / second
    11-15 = 1.3333 / second
    16+ = 1.5 / second
    or now
    16-20 = 1.5 / second
    21-25 = 1.666 / second
    26+ = 1.833 / second

    Enabling the higher levels to help keep pace even without the massive burst, which would only get more extreme if the current scheme was extended in any fashion.

    One could even spread out the changes in RoF to every level giving a small delta instead of the step functions every 5 levels.

    I think any solution that will truely work needs to step well outside the current box of thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    What is it that I apparently want? How is that in my interest? You claim I'm putting words in your mouth, as it were, but I'm addressing the comments you're making.
    You've said repeatedly that you believe the way manyshot works is an obstacle to improving ranged combat. I've said that I think the reason you are arguing that manyshot is overpowered is to serve that end. I really don't see what the difficulty is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    That so much discussion revolves around Manyshot's inadequacies early in the game merely serves to emphasize the problem of Manyshot: ranged combat early in the game is pretty poor, and in the middle of the game, and late in the game. The only thing that changes is that Manyshot is kind of mediocre early in the game, and then becomes very strong. Do you think anyone would be playing an archer from level 1-25 if Manyshot wasn't there, and wasn't ramping up to something amazing by mid-end game? Wouldn't you prefer for archery to be improved at all levels in a way that makes it competitive for the entirety of your career, and for the entire time that you're shooting?
    This is an interesting paragraph, because it's a big retreat from your earlier blanket statement that manyshot is OP. Perhaps we aren't really so far apart on this issue as it first seemed.

    I have not said at any other point that I don't want ranged combat to be improved in other ways. It is you who believes that it is necessary to make changes to manyshot for that to occur, not me.

    In fact, I would like to see ranged combat improved. But ranged combat poses a serious problem, not just with manyshot, but in general for game design. Ranged combat is a very safe combat style which places different design stresses with building maps, monster AI and attack options. It is sensible to be cautious about making improvements to it because we all know how players react when abilities are added and then taken away.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Citing abilities coming out that work to further expand on Manyshot doesn't indicate any change in stance from the devs on the issue. Not to belittle the devs, but they do release many effects that they don't fully consider the far-reaching impact thereof. Additionally, they have worked in new tech that doesn't work with Manyshot, and most players rail against such ploys, seeing them for what they are: dancing around Manyshot.
    This is your opinion. But I note the change from your earlier posts, where you were telling me that I didn't understand manyshot, and that you know how the Devs understand manyshot but I didn't. Now you seem to be saying that maybe the Devs dont understand it either. Is it only you and a couple of your like-minded associates who really understand it, or could it be that quite a few more people understand it but just don't share your opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Manyshot is cumbersome: it's one of the few abilities we have in the game (although we have gotten more in recent years) that really forces the player to anticipate challenges, or suffer through them, and is fairly torturous for newer players, or those unfamiliar with archery best practices. Do you Manyshot as soon as you get a couple of dangerous/high HP targets, or do you wait until you get to something more dangerous? Do you wait out your timer before moving on every time? So much of the combat style's power is wrapped up in this one feat that lasts for only 20 seconds of 2 minutes, and for many doesn't even show up that often. That's a problem. It's a stated problem for the devs, a problem for new players, a problem for groups (do you wait for your archer friend to get back to "full power" or not?), and a problem for optimizers (who generally view problems as an impetus to find a solution) who want to be archers, but must acknowledge that for about 80% of their character's time spent in combat they are under-performing, or that not finding a way to squeeze in Manyshot is limiting their potential DPS overall.
    I don't think that some of these decisions are quite so hard to make in a decent party where everyone is pulling their weight, and in particular, when you've been playing for a little while and know the quest, monster capabilties, etc. There are not hard problems to solve, players with a modicum of intelligence and experience can do this easily. Hell, if you and I learned how to do it, other people can too.

    And again, I haven't said that I'm opposed to an improvement of ranged combat, just that it needs to be done carefully and perhaps avoiding even more stacking up of abilities than the ones we have now.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    What other single feat so thoroughly defines, and overshadows? What other single feat, or ability, causes as much back-bending? Ten Thousand Stars is a good deal weaker than Manyshot, and look how strong that is, how much attention it gets. And that requires 6 levels in a class otherwise not especially well-suited to archery, that necessitates purchasing an otherwise pointless feat (Zen Archery), spending a few AP, investing in Wis, while still requiring Dex, and bending your build around making it hum--trying to find ways to generate Ki, including spending a precious Twist of Fate on an ability whose only purpose is to keep you in 10K Stars. You can argue that 10K Stars is stronger than Manyshot, since it has more up-time, but its impact on individual encounters is typically less relevant, and they are certainly in the same ballpark. Yet Manyshot costs a pittance of investment--3 feats or 6 levels in a class that also grants 3 other core archery feats and additional abilities that enhance your archery (or your switch-hitting), and then requires no further investment. You don't need to contort your character around the need to generate some resource that you cannot obtain through normal channels, and you don't need to spend any AP, ED points or Twists on it at all.
    I've responded to this before. I don't agree that manyshot overshadows other feats/abilities in all cases, and not even at the top end. Not do I agree that six class levels is a small sacrifice. If you are pretending that manyshot is even all that useful by spending just three feats and the required stat points, but not also picking up bow strength and precise shot as well you are quite misguided.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 04-18-2013 at 09:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    You've said repeatedly that you believe the way manyshot works is an obstacle to improving ranged combat. I've said that I think the reason you are arguing that manyshot is overpowered is to serve that end. I really don't see what the difficulty is here.
    I believe that it is an obstacle for two reasons:

    1. The devs have said so.
    2. We see the effect of not designing around Manyshot with things like Adrenaline.

    This is your opinion. But I note the change from your earlier posts, where you were telling me that I didn't understand manyshot, and that you know how the Devs understand manyshot but I didn't. Now you seem to be saying that maybe the Devs dont understand it either. Is it only you and a couple of your like-minded associates who really understand it, or could it be that quite a few more people understand it but just don't share your opinions?
    I never said these things. What I said was that the devs do a lot in the game without considering the broader effects of their additions and subtractions, which is true for a lot of the game, not just Manyshot, and I have said that the devs view Manyshot as a barrier to improving archery.

    You keep replying to these statements as though I, and others, are making them up. That I'm pushing some fabrication of the devs' stating that Manyshot is problematic for them, to...what? Shoot archery in the foot for no reason? Because, somehow, I magically envision killing Manyshot and buffing archery all on my own? I'm not delusional. I didn't conjure this idea out of thin air. I've spent years reading the forums and observing the behavior of Turbine's developers, and reading their replies to the numerous calls for improvements to archery, and am simply relaying those observations.

    Have they changed their tune on the issue? Perhaps, but there's been no statement made to support that conjecture, and no one has reported a boost to ranged RoF popping up unlooked for. We received Archer's Focus, which is cumbersome in its usage, and which quite obviously dances around Manyshot (and Improved Precise Shot). In fact, the devs jumped through hoops in order to give us AF while making sure that it didn't work with IPS, classifying IPS as a stance and putting AF on the same channel, and forcing a lockout of Manyshot (easier than the job they did on IPS).

    Yes, they also view being able to move and shoot as a problem, clearly, despite casters being able to do it far more effectively. No, the developers don't understand some parts of their game very well at all.
    And again, I haven't said that I'm opposed to an improvement of ranged combat, just that it needs to be done carefully and perhaps avoiding even more stacking up of abilities than the ones we have now.
    Which would be viewed as a proxy-nerf to Manyshot. Somewhat reasonable, but one of the major things archery needs is an increased attack rate, which I don't see happening in a significant way until Manyshot is addressed in some fashion.


    I've responded to this before. I don't agree that manyshot overshadows other feats/abilities in all cases, and not even at the top end.
    No? Can you name any other single feat or ability that has as dramatic an impact on character performance?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I believe that it is an obstacle for two reasons:

    1. The devs have said so.
    2. We see the effect of not designing around Manyshot with things like Adrenaline.
    These statements need support. Are you able to cite a source for point 1? And are you able to demonstrate, if it was said at some point in the past, that it is still the thinking now?

    If so, why are the Devs continuing to buff archery, by adding abilities which stack with manyshot, and the power of ranged combat in general (in particular through the enhancement pass)? Recent evidence seems to be against you, even if things were once as you claim.

    Why was the adrenaline/manyshot interaction restored after it was taken away? Player outrage? I don't think so. That has not been enough to prevent Turbine from doing other things, which upset considerably more of the player base. If anything about ranged combat is OP at the moment, it's that interaction, and it was reinstated!

    It is amusing that we are still arguing about point 2, because it goes right back to my criticisms of your blanket statement that manyshot is OP.

    Once again, the example you are using is from a newly introduced ED ability that is not an issue in the heroic levels or for other EDs. It also just as easily supports my point that it is the new abilities and their interactions with manyshot which are the problem, if in fact there is a problem at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I never said these things. What I said was that the devs do a lot in the game without considering the broader effects of their additions and subtractions, which is true for a lot of the game, not just Manyshot, and I have said that the devs view Manyshot as a barrier to improving archery.

    You keep replying to these statements as though I, and others, are making them up. That I'm pushing some fabrication of the devs' stating that Manyshot is problematic for them, to...what? Shoot archery in the foot for no reason? Because, somehow, I magically envision killing Manyshot and buffing archery all on my own? I'm not delusional. I didn't conjure this idea out of thin air. I've spent years reading the forums and observing the behavior of Turbine's developers, and reading their replies to the numerous calls for improvements to archery, and am simply relaying those observations.
    I am not saying you are delusional, that would be very impolite, and is probably inaccurate too. I just don't think your opinion of the difficulties with manyshot is necessarily the Devs' opinion now.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Have they changed their tune on the issue? Perhaps, but there's been no statement made to support that conjecture, and no one has reported a boost to ranged RoF popping up unlooked for. We received Archer's Focus, which is cumbersome in its usage, and which quite obviously dances around Manyshot (and Improved Precise Shot).
    Archer's focus is a damage boost for archers, and quite a significant one. A ROF increase is also a damage boost, but one which is always on and is not tied to whether or not you are moving. I think the introduction of Archer's focus was a useful addition to the combat style without just handing over an across the board increase to ranged damage.

    I would like to see a rate of fire increase, if not overall, then one which offers more to non monk and non artificer builds. I think some effort is being made to increase dps for the dex based archer through the new enhancements, even though I'm not terribly pleased with how that change is going overall.

    Sadly, I think that the fact we got Archer's focus and some stuff through the enhancements too means a flat ROF increase is off the table, at least for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    In fact, the devs jumped through hoops in order to give us AF while making sure that it didn't work with IPS, classifying IPS as a stance and putting AF on the same channel, and forcing a lockout of Manyshot (easier than the job they did on IPS).

    Yes, they also view being able to move and shoot as a problem, clearly, despite casters being able to do it far more effectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    No, the developers don't understand some parts of their game very well at all.
    No argument there. But then again, they do appear to have some realistic and legitimate balance and design concerns about some parts of the game, so lack of understanding can't automatically be accepted as the reason they are or aren't doing what you or I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Which would be viewed as a proxy-nerf to Manyshot. Somewhat reasonable, but one of the major things archery needs is an increased attack rate, which I don't see happening in a significant way until Manyshot is addressed in some fashion.
    As I said above, I don't think it's going to happen at all. Which is why I am worried when I see people attempting to trade away one of the best things ranged combat has going for it right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    No? Can you name any other single feat or ability that has as dramatic an impact on character performance?
    You are just making me repeat myself now. Do you remember my example of the level 6 ranger who just qualified for manyshot compared to the level 6 sorcerer who is chucking around maximised empowered fireballs? Even the cleave feat for melees is comparable on a well built toon. There are so many examples like this it's ridiculous, and if you don't agree with me here I think there may be little I can do to change your mind no matter how hard I try. Plus, as I've repeatedly said, manyshot ain't all that unless supported with a host of other feats and abilities like bow strength, IPS and slayer arrows.

    Thanks, and have a good weekend.
    Last edited by blerkington; 04-19-2013 at 01:58 AM.
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    Did you really just compare Manyshot to Cleave?Instead of looking at how the game functions at level 6, where you spend 1-2 days, look at how it functions for levels 16-20, and at levels 21-25, where you are going to spending weeks and months.
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    Default Vargouille, quick question=

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    10k stars is not leaving the game.

    Any time you find any enhancement that seems to be missing entirely and you would actually ever use it, please report it as a bug.

    Note that monks and some other classes are not ready for prime time testing on Lamannia yet.
    Vargouille, is there any chance the feat can be updated to increase the chance to throw extra shuriken based on dex instead of wisdom, while keeping the archery portion the same?


    This IS a shuriken feat, not an archery feat. Yet the new enhancements require shuriken users to bump dex and not wisdom, in addition the zen archery feat doesn't work with thrown weapons either, so there is no synergy bonuses with shuriken like there is with archery (again despite being a shuriken based feat). It's a shame that monk archers get all the good benefit out of this feat while shuriken throwers are kind of left in the dust.


    If that is not possible, how about doubling the bonus from wisdom to extra throw chance when using shurikens, to make up for wisdom not being our main stat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Vargouille, is there any chance the feat can be updated to increase the chance to throw extra shuriken based on dex instead of wisdom, while keeping the archery portion the same?
    That ability already exists in the Ninja Spy tree as Ninja Training II core enhancement. It only requires 3 monk whereas 10k stars requires 6 monk. You'd be in the Ninja Spy tree already if you want shirukens for the Sting of the Ninja enhancement.
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