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  1. #21
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    take out the tree limit
    put back the 1 pre per class limit
    lower the ap costs

    or... make it so the the tree tiers uses pt spent total on all trees rather than on specific trees

    multi classing is suppose to be versatile, the way it is right now they're just starved for AP to even get back what they had before the new system
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  2. #22
    2014 DDO Players Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    We recognize that one of DDO's strengths is character diversity. We do not intend for this change to remove the viability of Multi-Classing or character diversity. I understand that the current restrictions make Multi-Classing more difficult. This is actually the main reason why I made this thread. I wanted to let you, the players, know that we are asking for your feedback about what adjustments would be most beneficial for you. We want you to help us find the balance where Pure Classed and Multi-Classed characters can thrive side by side.

    As for what sort of Lesser Reincarnation will accompany the Enhancement change: I am only a QA tester - unfortunately, I do not get to make those decisions. However, I will pass that recommendation on to the proper departments. I am writing up feedback reports every Monday morning during this Enhancements pass, and I will make sure to include that suggestion!
    "feedback reports every Monday morning during" kk so get them done this weekend I guess.
    ~Thelanis ~ Khyber ~

  3. #23
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingfisher View Post
    take out the tree limit, multiclassers are already limited by class level they do not need further limitations. period. lower the cost or push some abilities down. stop shoehorning general class enhancements into pre trees just to fill up space. also stop tying useless abilities to the good stuff just to make people spend points in a tree.

    forget about the lr, just change the system. coming up with a solution to a problem that you havent created yet is dumb, just dont create the problem.

    in a general sense:
    listen better.
    actually change things that you get negative feedback on.
    stop saying you support something and then turn around and nerf it.
    eat your vegetables.
    Quote Originally Posted by rdasca View Post
    BOLD

    The U.S. government tried this, it was called "no child left behind", check and see how that is going.

    I have a radical idea, leave DDO as is, simplify the enhancements and use your shiny new interface if you like but let us the players play what we want.

    Just because a few power gamers are building multi-class amalgamations with 37 past lives or whatever, and crushing your content, most are not, most just want to have fun playing DDO, not have their favorite toon nerffed every other update.

    I have many "pure" toons, why because I like them, I play them because of my D&D days, and let's face facts the majority of your player base is here because of D&D, not because they are looking for a WoW clone.

    Let me build what I want within the D&D framework, translated into DDO (because some PnP stuff does not work in an MMO, I get that) if I want a 12/6/2 class split toon let me, heck if I want a gimp 10/9/1 toon why do you the devs care? It is my time, my money, stop trying to pigeonhole us into your (and I mean Turbine's) idea of "balance" it is annoying and frankly condescending.

    So far this Alpha enhancement preview has left a bad taste in my mouth. Over the years Turbine has nerffed some stuff and changed the rules on us more than once, this has the potential to outstrip all previous changes to finally surpass the TWF nerf as the worse thing to happen to DDO.

    Personally I hope I am wrong, but as history shows, I doubt I am.

    So Turbine, prove me wrong, make the new enhancement pass something that while might make us redo our toons a bit, it will leave us with the same choices as before, allow us the ability to make actual choices not be forced to take the ones you think are the right ones or "balanced".

    Come on;
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    take out the tree limit
    put back the 1 pre per class limit
    lower the ap costs

    or... make it so the the tree tiers uses pt spent total on all trees rather than on specific trees

    multi classing is suppose to be versatile, the way it is right now they're just starved for AP to even get back what they had before the new system
    I won't repeat the obvious but you want feedback well here, read what I quoted, read it again and then read it some more, read it to your buddies and work colleagues then read it one more time so you get the general idea.

    I don't multiclass and even I find this new system meh. I alpha tested Neverwinter Online and beta tested and implore you do not neuter the game and customization like Neverwinter has done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  4. #24
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    We recognize that one of DDO's strengths is character diversity. We do not intend for this change to remove the viability of Multi-Classing or character diversity. I understand that the current restrictions make Multi-Classing more difficult. This is actually the main reason why I made this thread. I wanted to let you, the players, know that we are asking for your feedback about what adjustments would be most beneficial for you. We want you to help us find the balance where Pure Classed and Multi-Classed characters can thrive side by side.
    Here are some suggestions then:

    Concerning trees:


    - Get rid of the AP's per tree and instead use the current "x amount" of AP's used in general.
    - Either get rid of the 3 trees limit or increase it to 4 for multi-classing. Right now it's impossible to get 3 classes with the current limit.
    - Consider the following: 1 racial tree, 1 single class tree where:
    a) Racial tree (no changes other than lower AP costs)
    b) Class Tree: All Class/PrE options go here. No dumb divisions into other trees. We choose what "path" we want to go or not to go.
    As an example for organization, place all "general" skills on the left of the window, PrE/Specials on the right of the window and differentiate the sides with both icon color and a color gradient on the background.

    Concerning Enhancements:

    - Lower the AP costs of Enhancements and Racial Enhancements. In cases where there are tiers, consider:
    a) 2 tiers: 1 AP first tier, 1 AP second tier OR 1 AP first tier, 2 AP's second tier
    b) 3 tiers: either 1/1/1 AP's or 1/1/2 AP's
    - Get rid of this dumb idea of shoving general and core skills into separate trees (Favored Enemy is a great example of this). See example above of SINGLE TREE.
    - Get rid of the trash requirements, especially on enhancements that right now have no requirement. For example, having to get Orc Fury to get Orc Strength - Get rid of this!
    - Give us back our stat points. Instead of making separate "buttons", make it a multi-tier. For example, if it has 4 tiers it can go 1/1/2/2 AP spent.

    Concerning Core Enhancements (Horizontal Bar):


    - Get rid of the requirement to take them all
    - Get rid of the requirement to get them from left to right.

    This, because not all of us want all of those enhancements.

    Concerning Clerics:


    - Give them back their offensive enhancements and skills instead of the useless poo (sorry, no other name) that you shoved in there. Not every one is a nanny hjeel bot.

    Concerning the changes to skills and Spellcraft:


    - Get rid of it unless you intend to:
    a) Make those an optional extra that we can get if we so wish.

    OR

    b) Give us more skill points to use.
    c) Make Spellcraft NOT INT based. Actually, don't base it on stats AT ALL.
    d) Give Magical Training to ANYONE with a blue bar (rangers, bards and paladins included).

    This is it for now... I'm sure I'll have more to come as this progresses.
    Last edited by Aussir; 04-12-2013 at 06:16 PM.
    DDO-Europe 2006/2010 - Aureon/Keeper

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  5. #25
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    there needs to be a genral class tree and then the pre trees
    I really think that after years of promiss to finish the pre then you give us this. still only the same pre just broken up and a lot of filler added to make it look like there is more content. I school this type of thing is called BSing the work. were I work this kind of idea gets people demoted. You made promisses and now at what should be it fufilment We see the same stuff reworked and it seems to be not thought out as well. I can only talk about the arty and cleric trees and human and wf. the racial trees are too resticive. the radient servent pre is weaken and there was chose taken out like on live i have 4 wis and 3 cha on my human cleric now the best i will have is 3 wis adn one cha and the coast is really high to get the one cha now. the healling amp is way more coast.

    I do like that the heal skill means something even though it hurts to make the choice of what skill to drop for it. the group skills are nice and a way to lower ap coast in some builds. but i finally found were rs is weaken
    quote from wiki
    You count as 1 Level higher when channeling Positive Energy or Light based spells, any Undead that you successfully turn with your turn ability are destroyed instead of frightened, and your turns regenerate over time (1 every 2 minutes), even if you get feebleminded, or your maximum number of Turn Undeads change by other "indirect" means. You also gain the ability to expend a turn attempt to create a positive energy burst.


    The Empower Healing metamagic now grants you a +100 bonus to healing spell power instead of the base amount of +75, and you count as an additional 1 Level higher when channeling positive energy or light based spells. You also gain the ability to expend a turn attempt to create a positive energy aura.



    I just know that aura and burst let me do a decent job healing while mele as the test severs is now theye are not enough.
    A Player of a clonk
    funniest thing I have read in a while=>
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    we'd rather spend that development time on things most players like.

  6. #26
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    The way that the surveys were set up lead to a little bit of confusion for me. It seemed like the first questions were focusing in on what type of character was providing this type of feedback, but then the later questions were asking for broad interpretations of the system at a player level rather than character. Are we supposed to be submitting multiple surveys, one for every character that we mess around with on Lama land?

    Additionally it seemed like the Class Tree survey was much more structured and offered very few opportunities for people to make comments, where the Racial Tree survey was quite opened up for feedback. Is the current iteration more focused on the Race than the Class? Will we be able to provide that same type of feedback about the Class Trees at a later point, or is that type of feedback simply not wanted for them?

  7. #27
    Community Member Drona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    We want you to help us find the balance where Pure Classed and Multi-Classed characters can thrive side by side.
    Then better review some of the capstone abilities. There is absolutely no incentive to be pure anymore. With DC Casting dead, even wizards are now multi-classing for evasion and going shiradi boom boom. The game has become a cheesy multi-class builds running all over.

  8. #28
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    general feedback:

    the new enhancement system needs a lot of work to reach the playable state that won't brutalize the viability of multiclassing

    3 class tree limit helps pure class builds while hinders multiclass builds. especially since now that you guys made a lot of the enhancements exclusive to specific PrE, there's no way the multi-class builds can get the versatility they have now before the new system.

    example.
    i run a 7/7/6 rogue/arty/ranger build
    i have access to scroll/wand mastery, endless fusillade, deepwood sniper, spring boost, skill boost, damage boost, and rogue mechanic

    with the new system, i need to spend at least 24 points into battle engineer just to get the endless fusillade
    i need to spend at least 12 points in deepwood to get sniper shot back
    and that's when i don't even know what has been done to the rogue mechanic
    on top of that, i'll need to spend at least 22 pts in warforge racial tree if i want the Attach Weapon
    so given all that, i'm 58 pts down at least
    which gives me 22 pts to mess around with Rogue mechanic

    and if the rogue mechanic doesn't doesn't have the wand/scroll mastery, that means i won't be able to get that... ever


    i'd suggest make the point spend requirement for the tree tier (not the core tier abilities) be pts spend so far total
    and each of the 3 "class" window be assigned to one of your character's class
    it'd be perfect since we can only have up to 3 classes per character anyway

    and for the dropdown list, list all the PrEs for that specific class

    and now for the fun part....
    let's take my class split for example, and since i'm a wf..

    the enhancement window from left to right will be
    Warforged, Ranger, Rogue, Arty (the order of actual class could be based on the order you took the class)
    the ranger dropdown menu will have Arcane Archer, Deepwood Stalker, and Tempest
    the Rogue dropdown will have Mechanic, Assassin, Acrobat
    and the Arty dropdown will have Battle Engineer, Arcane Technician, and whatever the third one is

    so let's assume i spend 12 points in Deepwood to get sniper shot and saved it. i can now switch over to the tempest tab on the ranger window and spend on other stuff as i see fit. i still spent those 12 points into Deepwood and i still have my Snipershot.
    however, i have 12 points spent total and that will allow me take tier 3 enhancements from Tempest tree (but i will still need to spend specific amount in tempest to qualify for the tempest core abilities)


    This method will allow multiclass have access to more things than pure class builds
    but will still not have high enough level to qualify for the core abilities and capstones

    eh, i hope i didn't make it confusing O-o;;;
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  9. #29
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quick idea to polish and implement:

    Make fifth tree, call it general.
    Put there enhancements like action boosts, skills, spellpower (this seriously needs to be back), spell criticals, stat bonuses, etcetera. Make each of them requiring few levels in certain class (for example, haste boost: requires one of: rogue lvl1, fighter lvl1, or force manipulation +40: requires one off: wizard lvl1, sorcerer lvl1, artificer lvl1).

    This way, we get arround 3 tree limit, multiclassing and splashing is still possible, general enhancements avaible to more than 1 class are saved, people are not ragequitting seeing their characters nerfed.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    ... make it so the the tree tiers uses pt spent total on all trees rather than on specific trees

    multi classing is suppose to be versatile, the way it is right now they're just starved for AP to even get back what they had before the new system

    I think this would be a start to fixing it.

  11. #31
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    Exclamation

    The leftmost side (prayer [buff] / command [cc] / close wound [healing]) of the Protect domain is unworthy to be even costing AP. If they are to cost AP, then they should be something something more useful for a Cleric (Mass Heal [healing]/ Blade Barrier [dps]/ Comet Fall [cc]).

    A game can't be call D&D if there is no multiclassing, that's why NWO is not even on my radar. This new revamp if it ever goes live certainly remove any constraint one have regarding the lack of muticlassing aspect in NWO.

    Instead of using AP/class level requirement to unlock item higher up the tree, wouldn't it be more natural to use spell power as a requirement?

  12. #32
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Free2Pay View Post
    The leftmost side (prayer [buff] / command [cc] / close wound [healing]) of the Protect domain is unworthy to be even costing AP. If they are to cost AP, then they should be something something more useful for a Cleric (Mass Heal [healing]/ Blade Barrier [dps]/ Comet Fall [cc]).

    A game can't be call D&D if there is no multiclassing, that's why NWO is not even on my radar. This new revamp if it ever goes live certainly remove any constraint one have regarding the lack of muticlassing aspect in NWO.

    Instead of using AP/class level requirement to unlock item higher up the tree, wouldn't it be more natural to use spell power as a requirement?
    using spell power as requirement?
    that makes... no sense o-o

    honestly i think only the core abilities at the bottom should have the AP spent on that tree restriction
    the tree should have points spent total as restriction

    and open up the enhancement so we're not locked to 3 class trees...
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    • While you probably will not be able to re-create the build you currently have on live, I know you can make AWESOME builds with this new system. Please take the time to see what you can create with what is currently available. I know you have spent a lot of time building your characters on Live. I would appreciate it if you would take the same care and effort while testing out this new system.
    I'm not able to test things myself right now because my Lamannia launcher is unable to connect to the server. But I have been reading a lot of what has been posted, and I'm very concerned.

    The enhancement system on live works. It's something that has been built and balanced slowly over many years. Sure it could use some improvements, to make the interface more intuitive to use and to add what has long been missing (3 complete PREs for every class!), but aside from a very minor tweak here and there, that's pretty much the full extent of any change any player has ever wanted and voiced an opinion on up until this new enhancement stuff. And your new update isn't even giving us the 3 PREs that we've wanted for so long.

    Through all of 2006-2013 I haven't heard anybody calling for the whole enhancement system to be scrapped, but that's what you're doing anyway. Why? There is no need to change the core functionality of a system that, by and large, works great. Just improve the GUI and add the bits that were long promised but are still missing. Changing the core functionality is going to hurt a lot of builds, builds that aren't overpowered or detrimental to the game, but simply rely on a diverse set of multiclassed enhancements.

    The new system, from everything I've seen and read so far, is bad. Straight up bad. The 3 tree limitation is bad. Points-spent-in-tree prereqs are bad. Worthless or irrelevant prereqs are bad. They are all needlessly restrictive compared to what we have on live today. You should be replicating what we currently have, and adding new functionality on top where appropriate. Not taking choices away on a whim and saying "Sorry we're killing your beloved builds, but I'm sure with a little (or a lot) of work, we're confident you'll find a different build that you also like! Just give it a try!"

    What you should have done is start from the system you already know is working and relatively balanced (i.e., the current system on live), and then figure out how to design a better interface around it. Instead what you have done is start with a preconceived interface that you want to use, and then rearrange, rebuild, rebalance, and in many cases completely nerf the underlying functionality in order to fit it into that desired interface.

    There are some cool new enhancements in the new system, to be sure. But they should have been worked into the old system under a better GUI instead of making everybody, yourselves and the players alike, all have to start over from scratch. There was and is no need for anybody to start from scratch!
    Last edited by Stanley_Nicholas; 04-13-2013 at 08:21 AM. Reason: typos
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  14. #34
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Well said, Stanely!

    I don't understand why the current system could not be made into a tree-like pattern, with costs balanced a little better so that 3rd PREs could be worked into it.

    Why reinvent the wheel?

  15. #35
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussir View Post
    Here are some suggestions then:

    Concerning trees:


    - Get rid of the AP's per tree and instead use the current "x amount" of AP's used in general.
    - get rid of the 3 trees limit
    - Consider the following: 1 racial tree, 1 single class tree where:
    a) Racial tree (no changes other than lower AP costs)
    b) Class Tree: All Class/PrE options go here. No dumb divisions into other trees. We choose what "path" we want to go or not to go.
    As an example for organization, place all "general" skills on the left of the window, PrE/Specials on the right of the window and differentiate the sides with both icon color and a color gradient on the background.

    Concerning Enhancements:

    - Lower the AP costs of Enhancements and Racial Enhancements. In cases where there are tiers, consider:
    a) 2 tiers: 1 AP first tier, 1 AP second tier OR 1 AP first tier, 2 AP's second tier
    b) 3 tiers: either 1/1/1 AP's or 1/1/2 AP's
    - Get rid of this dumb idea of shoving general and core skills into separate trees (Favored Enemy is a great example of this). See example above of SINGLE TREE.
    - Get rid of the trash requirements, especially on enhancements that right now have no requirement. For example, having to get Orc Fury to get Orc Strength - Get rid of this!
    - Give us back our stat points. Instead of making separate "buttons", make it a multi-tier. For example, if it has 4 tiers it can go 1/1/2/2 AP spent.

    Concerning Core Enhancements (Horizontal Bar):


    - Get rid of the requirement to take them all
    - Get rid of the requirement to get them from left to right.

    This, because not all of us want all of those enhancements.

    Concerning Clerics:


    - Give them back their offensive enhancements and skills instead of the useless poo (sorry, no other name) that you shoved in there. Not every one is a nanny hjeel bot.
    This is absolutely right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley_Nicholas View Post
    The enhancement system on live works. It's something that has been built and balanced slowly over many years. Sure it could use some improvements, to make the interface more intuitive to use and to add what has long been missing (3 complete PREs for every class!), but aside from a very minor tweak here and there, that's pretty much the full extent of any change any player has ever wanted and voiced an opinion on up until this new enhancement stuff. And your new update isn't even giving us the 3 PREs that we've wanted for so long.

    There is no need to change the core functionality of a system that works. Just improve the GUI and add the bits that were long promised but are still missing.

    Changing the core functionality is going to hurt a lot of builds, builds that aren't overpowered or detrimental to the game, but simply rely on a diverse set of multiclassed enhancements.

    The new system, from everything I've seen and read so far, is bad. Straight up bad. The 3 tree limitation is bad. Points spent in tree prereqs are bad. Worthless or irrelevant prereqs are bad. They are all needlessly restrictive compared to what we have on live today. You should be replicating what we currently have, and adding new functionality on top where appropriate. Not taking choices away on a whim and saying "Sorry we're killing your beloved builds, but I'm sure with a little (or a lot) or work, we're confident you'll find a different build that you also like! Just give it a try!"

    What you should have done is start from the system you already know is working and relatively balanced (i.e., the current system on live), and then figuring out how to design a better interface around it. Instead what you have done is start with a preconceived interface that you want to use, and then rearrange, rebuild, rebalance, and in many cases completely nerf the underlying functionality in order to fit it into that desired interface.
    There was no need for anybody to start from scratch!
    QFT and then some.
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  16. #36
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    My suggestion of using spell power to determine item on the tree to unlock goes something like this:

    Heal skill : each point add 5 positive/negative spell and 2 point of light spell power

    Magical Training Feat: for each caster level add 1 to Universal spell power

    Greater Spell Focus- Conjuration: for each caster level add 5 positive/negative spell if Cleric/FvS

    Greater Spell Focus- Evocation: for each caster level add 5 Light spell power if Cleric/FvS

    etc

    For example, say Radiant Servant require 70 Positive Spell Power and 40 Light spell power to unlock,
    so it's up to the individual to decide how much to invest using feats/skills to hit a certain threshold in Spell Power to unlock it rather than AP. And these spell power would stack with those granted from gears.

  17. #37
    Community Member haulindonkey's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Amen, brother!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley_Nicholas View Post
    I'm not able to test things myself right now because my Lamannia launcher is unable to connect to the server. But I have been reading a lot of what has been posted, and I'm very concerned.

    The enhancement system on live works. It's something that has been built and balanced slowly over many years. Sure it could use some improvements, to make the interface more intuitive to use and to add what has long been missing (3 complete PREs for every class!), but aside from a very minor tweak here and there, that's pretty much the full extent of any change any player has ever wanted and voiced an opinion on up until this new enhancement stuff. And your new update isn't even giving us the 3 PREs that we've wanted for so long.

    Through all of 2006-2013 I haven't heard anybody calling for the whole enhancement system to be scrapped, but that's what you're doing anyway. Why? There is no need to change the core functionality of a system that, by and large, works great. Just improve the GUI and add the bits that were long promised but are still missing. Changing the core functionality is going to hurt a lot of builds, builds that aren't overpowered or detrimental to the game, but simply rely on a diverse set of multiclassed enhancements.

    The new system, from everything I've seen and read so far, is bad. Straight up bad. The 3 tree limitation is bad. Points spent in tree prereqs are bad. Worthless or irrelevant prereqs are bad. They are all needlessly restrictive compared to what we have on live today. You should be replicating what we currently have, and adding new functionality on top where appropriate. Not taking choices away on a whim and saying "Sorry we're killing your beloved builds, but I'm sure with a little (or a lot) or work, we're confident you'll find a different build that you also like! Just give it a try!"

    What you should have done is start from the system you already know is working and relatively balanced (i.e., the current system on live), and then figuring out how to design a better interface around it. Instead what you have done is start with a preconceived interface that you want to use, and then rearrange, rebuild, rebalance, and in many cases completely nerf the underlying functionality in order to fit it into that desired interface.

    There are some cool new enhancements in the new system, to be sure. But they should have been worked into the old system under a better GUI instead of making everybody, yourselves and the players alike, all have to start over from scratch. There was and is no need for anybody to start from scratch!
    /signed (and double-signed, triple-signed, underscored, underlined, highlighted, flashing neon sign pointing the way)
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley_Nicholas View Post
    I'm not able to test things myself right now because my Lamannia launcher is unable to connect to the server. But I have been reading a lot of what has been posted, and I'm very concerned.

    The enhancement system on live works. It's something that has been built and balanced slowly over many years. Sure it could use some improvements, to make the interface more intuitive to use and to add what has long been missing (3 complete PREs for every class!), but aside from a very minor tweak here and there, that's pretty much the full extent of any change any player has ever wanted and voiced an opinion on up until this new enhancement stuff. And your new update isn't even giving us the 3 PREs that we've wanted for so long.

    Through all of 2006-2013 I haven't heard anybody calling for the whole enhancement system to be scrapped, but that's what you're doing anyway. Why? There is no need to change the core functionality of a system that, by and large, works great. Just improve the GUI and add the bits that were long promised but are still missing. Changing the core functionality is going to hurt a lot of builds, builds that aren't overpowered or detrimental to the game, but simply rely on a diverse set of multiclassed enhancements.

    The new system, from everything I've seen and read so far, is bad. Straight up bad. The 3 tree limitation is bad. Points spent in tree prereqs are bad. Worthless or irrelevant prereqs are bad. They are all needlessly restrictive compared to what we have on live today. You should be replicating what we currently have, and adding new functionality on top where appropriate. Not taking choices away on a whim and saying "Sorry we're killing your beloved builds, but I'm sure with a little (or a lot) or work, we're confident you'll find a different build that you also like! Just give it a try!"

    What you should have done is start from the system you already know is working and relatively balanced (i.e., the current system on live), and then figuring out how to design a better interface around it. Instead what you have done is start with a preconceived interface that you want to use, and then rearrange, rebuild, rebalance, and in many cases completely nerf the underlying functionality in order to fit it into that desired interface.

    There are some cool new enhancements in the new system, to be sure. But they should have been worked into the old system under a better GUI instead of making everybody, yourselves and the players alike, all have to start over from scratch. There was and is no need for anybody to start from scratch!
    Hi,

    This is a very good post, thank you Stanley.

    The change itself looks like it's the product of someone who wants to be seen to be doing something. Some of the most alarming and destructive management behaviour I've ever seen comes from this approach.

    Look, look we've made something shiny and new! The UI is so pretty! The icons are so nice! It is good, because I made it! Now where is my bonus?

    What would be incredibly useful now, for this conversation with the community, would be for Turbine to provide an argument for how what is being proposed is better than what we had.

    That tired old cliche of people fearing change needs to be debunked for the foolish slogan that it is. If someone can show us how what we are getting is better than what we had, this will all go down a lot easier. Thing is, it appears in many cases it isn't better at all.

    And by the way, releasing it in small stages and as 'alpha' is a cop-out. Is it really the case that you don't know what you're doing with your design, or is this just a part of the side-show? Tell us what your intentions are with these changes, either explicitly, or by showing us what you really believe would stand up as a final design.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  19. #39
    Community Member Aussir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley_Nicholas View Post
    I'm not able to test things myself right now because my Lamannia launcher is unable to connect to the server. But I have been reading a lot of what has been posted, and I'm very concerned.

    The enhancement system on live works. It's something that has been built and balanced slowly over many years. Sure it could use some improvements, to make the interface more intuitive to use and to add what has long been missing (3 complete PREs for every class!), but aside from a very minor tweak here and there, that's pretty much the full extent of any change any player has ever wanted and voiced an opinion on up until this new enhancement stuff. And your new update isn't even giving us the 3 PREs that we've wanted for so long.

    Through all of 2006-2013 I haven't heard anybody calling for the whole enhancement system to be scrapped, but that's what you're doing anyway. Why? There is no need to change the core functionality of a system that, by and large, works great. Just improve the GUI and add the bits that were long promised but are still missing. Changing the core functionality is going to hurt a lot of builds, builds that aren't overpowered or detrimental to the game, but simply rely on a diverse set of multiclassed enhancements.

    The new system, from everything I've seen and read so far, is bad. Straight up bad. The 3 tree limitation is bad. Points spent in tree prereqs are bad. Worthless or irrelevant prereqs are bad. They are all needlessly restrictive compared to what we have on live today. You should be replicating what we currently have, and adding new functionality on top where appropriate. Not taking choices away on a whim and saying "Sorry we're killing your beloved builds, but I'm sure with a little (or a lot) or work, we're confident you'll find a different build that you also like! Just give it a try!"

    What you should have done is start from the system you already know is working and relatively balanced (i.e., the current system on live), and then figuring out how to design a better interface around it. Instead what you have done is start with a preconceived interface that you want to use, and then rearrange, rebuild, rebalance, and in many cases completely nerf the underlying functionality in order to fit it into that desired interface.

    There are some cool new enhancements in the new system, to be sure. But they should have been worked into the old system under a better GUI instead of making everybody, yourselves and the players alike, all have to start over from scratch. There was and is no need for anybody to start from scratch!
    Quoted for truth.

    I as well don't understand why, instead of just improving the UI and keeping the current system, they had to go and destroy half the enhancements while introducing absurd and worthless new ones. This on top of the Spell Power/Devotion disaster that they came up with for who knows what retarded reason.

    Seems someone in there said: "I want to play, mommy!" then made a fuss so big that they let them wreak havoc... like those kids that have lousy parents that just let them do whatever they want.

    I left suggestions based on what I see being done but I have to agree that the biggest suggestion here, and that no one (me included) is remembering to say is:

    - KEEP THE CURRENT ENHANCEMENTS AND JUST REVAMP THE UI.

    Then over time, add what is needed for other PrE's , like you have done until now. Oh, and get rid of those ideas concerning our skills... no one asked for that ****.
    DDO-Europe 2006/2010 - Aureon/Keeper

    I'm blunt as a rock and can seem aggressive because of it. Be aware of that when reading my posts.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussir View Post
    Here are some suggestions then:

    Concerning trees:


    - Get rid of the AP's per tree and instead use the current "x amount" of AP's used in general.
    - Either get rid of the 3 trees limit or increase it to 4 for multi-classing. Right now it's impossible to get 3 classes with the current limit.
    - Consider the following: 1 racial tree, 1 single class tree where:
    a) Racial tree (no changes other than lower AP costs)
    b) Class Tree: All Class/PrE options go here. No dumb divisions into other trees. We choose what "path" we want to go or not to go.
    As an example for organization, place all "general" skills on the left of the window, PrE/Specials on the right of the window and differentiate the sides with both icon color and a color gradient on the background.

    Concerning Enhancements:

    - Lower the AP costs of Enhancements and Racial Enhancements. In cases where there are tiers, consider:
    a) 2 tiers: 1 AP first tier, 1 AP second tier OR 1 AP first tier, 2 AP's second tier
    b) 3 tiers: either 1/1/1 AP's or 1/1/2 AP's
    - Get rid of this dumb idea of shoving general and core skills into separate trees (Favored Enemy is a great example of this). See example above of SINGLE TREE.
    - Get rid of the trash requirements, especially on enhancements that right now have no requirement. For example, having to get Orc Fury to get Orc Strength - Get rid of this!
    - Give us back our stat points. Instead of making separate "buttons", make it a multi-tier. For example, if it has 4 tiers it can go 1/1/2/2 AP spent.
    Ok, I know this has been quoted before, and I think this whole post rocks, but I wanted to highlight this bit again. Please, for the love of God, DO NOT separate class trees into different trees based on the PREs. NO NO NO NO NO, bad puppy! Don't piddle on the game!!!

    Seriously, who thought this was a good idea?

    And, concerning the second bit, I really thought that part of the idea was to get rid of some of the draconian AP costs for enhancements (some of which were no longer, if they ever had been, worth that kind of cost). Instead you are making it more expensive? Color me confused....

    Aussir, absolutely +1000000 for this post, I think you really hit the nail on the head.

    And, Squeak, I don't multiclass (beyond a splash), and I have no doubt that people will be able to make diverse and interesting characters with any template you give us, but why change everything, especially by subdividing the classes by PRE? This game has a steep learning curve anyway, why make that worse? My main character is a HotD Paladin, and he's proud of that, BUT he is a PALADIN first and foremost. The HotD stuff is just his specialty. I don't want to lose the basics of what makes a Paladin a Paladin because of my PRE. And maybe this hasn't been brought up yet, but what if we don't WANT a PRE? I like them, but I don't think I should HAVE to use them. By subdividing the classes, you are making us feel like we are choosing a PRE. Also, having to grab stuff from all three PRE trees just to get my basic "Paladiness" seems to me less intuitive, not more. The class trees should be more like the Exalted Angel ED, general stuff at the bottom, but then branching near the top for Light spells vs Smites. In the same way, class trees should be general at the bottom, then branch near the top into the PREs...

    Just my 2 coppers

    Edit* BTW, I know the Paladin trees are not out yet, I just imagine that they will look similar to Ranger.....
    Last edited by BDog77; 04-13-2013 at 09:01 AM.

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