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  1. #21
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    If you need gating min-level is a much better idea than this points-per-tree silliness.
    pts per tree works wonders for core enhance
    pts spend total works wonders for the rest
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    In order to get the Healing Amp in the current enhancements in Live, though, you can spend those 30 AP on things that are actually worth having. If you had to spend a total of 20 (or more) AP in total (not just spent in the Human tree) to get the Human Healing Amp, I'd be delighted.

    Heck, I'd even consider picking up the Greater Heroism "clicky" enhancement if it required total AP spent instead of AP-spent-in-tree.
    The action surge bonuses are worth having because they can give a temp boost to spell DC's based on stat chosen, and the weapon style is a nice little bonus.

    I'm sorry to hear that you think the first 2 tiers of healing amp, fighting style, action boosts, adaptability, greater adaptability are all junk. I would have figure that since most of those are standard parts of current builds they might be considered useful. Just sayin'.

    Adapability II, versatility before that, actions surge with choice of stat bonus, fighting style is worth it, have to spend 2 points in skills or don't count me out, or a second stat bonus, or dragon marks if taken. Only a couple AP that are hard to select because they are small bonuses isn't that bad at all.

    I don't see the point in action surges boosting 4 stats at once for 20 seconds as justification for those costs of hitting tier 4 there, but I was only seeing 2 AP really spent on junk. If each tier of action boost stat bonus extended the duration of action surges then that would be better.

    We might have a disagreement on what constitutes junk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonbLF-NMZg

  3. #23
    Community Member Dodoroq's Avatar
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    I may as well sign below that, Aashrym. You cry for 22 points? Now the cost is 12, so 10-point difference... Then, you have to spend the action points on other things to get there... you would be taking adaptability anyway... only 8 points behind. You get Human Greater adaptability in the mix... always useful, although for 4 points it was little bit too expensive. It is 2 points only in new system, so worth taking. 6 points behind.

    Human Versatility is useful for any class - melee, ranged, caster. It is for free now. For 6 points, you can boost your most useful stat via Action Surge - would say primary caster stat or strength. Pretty useful. Possibly not worth 6 points, but still... Then there is Fighting Style. Once again, very useful for everybody. Once again, maybe not worth full 6 points, but still... even when these last two were 1pt/tier, you are at least on par with the old system.

    Then check Elven AA - 14 points to get to slaying arrows on Life, 56 points to get there on alpha. Once again, some useful abilities in the process, but when you think 10 more points is game breaking, what about 42 more points? And that will go with all the racial prestige classes. Overall, getting the best Human ability is ridiculously easy compared to other races ;-)...
    Characters on Cannith: Daian of the Tree, completionist (life 20); Tirain Hawksong (4th life Monkcher), Sorain Hawksong (2nd life Wizard), several mules.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post

    We might have a disagreement on what constitutes junk.
    My thoughts exactly. I'm not sure 10% healing amp is for any DPS class superior to a 20% damage boost with an added +3 to primary stat (or your main DC's stat), that stacks with haste boost, manyshot, and what not. I haven't played my ranger/rog/fighter in a while so I can't talk about endgame itemization for rangers, but for a pure melee, you have items that give 20% and 30% healing amp which do have other useful stats. I don't think you can get a raw 20% increase to your DPS on a single item slot. When I first saw Lamma proposed human enhancements tree my thoughts were "if human was ever strong now it is twice as strong - and deeper".

  5. #25
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    The action surge bonuses are worth having because they can give a temp boost to spell DC's based on stat chosen, and the weapon style is a nice little bonus.

    I'm sorry to hear that you think the first 2 tiers of healing amp, fighting style, action boosts, adaptability, greater adaptability are all junk. I would have figure that since most of those are standard parts of current builds they might be considered useful. Just sayin'.

    Adapability II, versatility before that, actions surge with choice of stat bonus, fighting style is worth it, have to spend 2 points in skills or don't count me out, or a second stat bonus, or dragon marks if taken. Only a couple AP that are hard to select because they are small bonuses isn't that bad at all.

    I don't see the point in action surges boosting 4 stats at once for 20 seconds as justification for those costs of hitting tier 4 there, but I was only seeing 2 AP really spent on junk. If each tier of action boost stat bonus extended the duration of action surges then that would be better.

    We might have a disagreement on what constitutes junk.
    If we could get them for free? Then, sure, they're great.
    For the cost, they're junk (with the exception of Healing Amp which I had already mentioned). The Fighting Style bonuses are junk (+To Hit is genuinely worthless, the d6 sneak attack is reported to be bugged and the +spellpower is reported to be bugged)

    The first tier of adaptability is nice to even out a stat. Pumping your stats is *way* less important today than it used to be because a much the inflated DPS means a much smaller % increase from +1 stat. It's still nice for DCs during Heroic levels, but that's about it.

    And the action boosts... oh, the action boosts.
    The do less than they currently do.
    They're competing for valuable hotbar space as DDO becomes significantly more single-action intensive.
    They're competing for both time and attention in a clicks-per-minute
    You only get 1 at a time, invalidating the entire benefit of *versatility*
    They cost too much. Just like the large majority of the rest of the tree.

    Junk is relative.

    When I buy a happy meal for my kids (about once a month), they get a toy. They love that toy. It's the greatest toy that anyone has ever gotten them. Because *every* toy is the greatest toy anyone has ever gotten them. It's not junk. Of course, it's not junk. Now, your best friend is getting married and you want to get him something really special. He is a massive toy nut. Are you going to get him a happy meal toy? Or are you going to look for some molds for casting tin soldiers or something else that has more meaning, higher production quality and more significance?

    Why? Because happy meal toys are junk.

    Spending more than 1/4 of your AP on boosts that last 20 seconds and run out of uses before the raid boss is even at 3/4 HP doesn't seem like a good investment. Spending 2 AP on Damage Boost is fine. Spending 2 AP on Healing Amp is great. Burning a few AP on enhancements so that you can get the second tier of Healing Amp if that pushes you over a significant number could be a good idea for some builds. But how can you call 6 AP for +3 to a stat that you only get to have for about 2 minutes per quest a good investment of your AP?

    I'm seriously unimpressed with the majority of the Human tree - ESPECIALLY since the cost of enhancements have gone up significantly so that each AP is more precious than it is today.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  6. #26
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodoroq View Post
    Then check Elven AA - 14 points to get to slaying arrows on Life, 56 points to get there on alpha. Once again, some useful abilities in the process, but when you think 10 more points is game breaking, what about 42 more points? And that will go with all the racial prestige classes. Overall, getting the best Human ability is ridiculously easy compared to other races ;-)...
    Vargoile has said that Arcane Archer will be the only racial prestige class in the release. Which means the only racial prestige class for the next several years at least.

    Too much gating in the new system. Too many "opportunities" to spend AP on something that you don't want on your character compared to today when you can spend AP on a wide variety of options that all actually do something for your character (and are all significantly front loaded) with only a couple of AP "thrown away" on junk enhancements that you need to take to push yourself up to the higher number of AP spent that are required for the next ability that you want. And even that I've only ever experienced on live characters that are pure Monks or Paladins. Every other character I've had has not had to spend AP on junk just to qualify for the enhancements that I need.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If we could get them for free? Then, sure, they're great.
    For the cost, they're junk (with the exception of Healing Amp which I had already mentioned). The Fighting Style bonuses are junk (+To Hit is genuinely worthless, the d6 sneak attack is reported to be bugged and the +spellpower is reported to be bugged)
    Bugged isn't the same as bad so long as it gets unbugged.

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    The first tier of adaptability is nice to even out a stat. Pumping your stats is *way* less important today than it used to be because a much the inflated DPS means a much smaller % increase from +1 stat. It's still nice for DCs during Heroic levels, but that's about it.
    DC's are more important for epic levels because the monsters hit harder. The actual bonus is still on a d20 so the relative impact is identical to heroic levels as far as failing saves goes. The second tier of adaptability is nice to even out a second stat, like CON.

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    And the action boosts... oh, the action boosts.
    The do less than they currently do.
    They're competing for valuable hotbar space as DDO becomes significantly more single-action intensive.
    They're competing for both time and attention in a clicks-per-minute
    You only get 1 at a time, invalidating the entire benefit of *versatility*
    They cost too much. Just like the large majority of the rest of the tree.

    Spending more than 1/4 of your AP on boosts that last 20 seconds and run out of uses before the raid boss is even at 3/4 HP doesn't seem like a good investment. Spending 2 AP on Damage Boost is fine. Spending 2 AP on Healing Amp is great. Burning a few AP on enhancements so that you can get the second tier of Healing Amp if that pushes you over a significant number could be a good idea for some builds. But how can you call 6 AP for +3 to a stat that you only get to have for about 2 minutes per quest a good investment of your AP?
    +3 on the first tier is awesome even in boosts. It's a +1 or +2 DC pumper for spells or in the case of STR it's a DC pumper for several melee feat DC's plus the damage bonus is multiplied out through other effects that increase damage. For something to work towards an ability like healing amp III that would be worth spending points in the first tier. Addition tiers are completely unattractive unless I use a lot of stats for a lot of things.

    Skill boost is useful for a lot of classes too, just not everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I'm seriously unimpressed with the majority of the Human tree - ESPECIALLY since the cost of enhancements have gone up significantly so that each AP is more precious than it is today.
    The cost for 20% damage boost went down. The cost for healing amp II and III went down. The cost for +4 skill bonuses went down, the cost for adaptability II went down....

    On the current system those 4 enhancements would be costing 28 AP, not 22 AP with more benefits added in. Cost isn't the real concern, it's the limited selection available. The selection to get to where you want to go is more restrictive but not the actual costs and I do see value in several of the enhancements to get there.

    The real questions is, "how important is healing amp III to everyone?"

    If it's not worth it to you stop at healing amp II.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbine
    a powerful ally able to play in any role that the group needs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zonbLF-NMZg

  8. #28
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Bugged isn't the same as bad so long as it gets unbugged.
    It's exactly the same as bad when it doesn't get unbugged. Or perhaps a little worse because it tricks people into thinking that it's worth taking.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  9. #29
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I think the devs should have been clear up front that this first wave of testing was more to just get a look at the abilities and not to test builds. I really want to think there is some overcosting on purpose going on. It was even mentioned by a dev somewhere that costs were kept high so that trees could be buffed with lower costs instead of going the other way and raising costs later.
    I shared your hope until today when I saw that a "major" change to the class enhancements was lowering the top teir minimum AP by 5. Yippie

    My hope is crushed, I now expect suckage from the new system (although I would be VERY happy to be proven wrong here by the devs)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    I shared your hope until today when I saw that a "major" change to the class enhancements was lowering the top teir minimum AP by 5. Yippie

    My hope is crushed, I now expect suckage from the new system (although I would be VERY happy to be proven wrong here by the devs)
    baby steps in the right direction. it's lowered my personal d00m level that they've made some nice changes already.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  11. #31
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If we could get them for free? Then, sure, they're great.
    For the cost, they're junk (with the exception of Healing Amp which I had already mentioned). The Fighting Style bonuses are junk (+To Hit is genuinely worthless, the d6 sneak attack is reported to be bugged and the +spellpower is reported to be bugged)

    The first tier of adaptability is nice to even out a stat. Pumping your stats is *way* less important today than it used to be because a much the inflated DPS means a much smaller % increase from +1 stat. It's still nice for DCs during Heroic levels, but that's about it.

    And the action boosts... oh, the action boosts.
    The do less than they currently do.
    They're competing for valuable hotbar space as DDO becomes significantly more single-action intensive.
    They're competing for both time and attention in a clicks-per-minute
    You only get 1 at a time, invalidating the entire benefit of *versatility*
    They cost too much. Just like the large majority of the rest of the tree.

    Junk is relative.

    When I buy a happy meal for my kids (about once a month), they get a toy. They love that toy. It's the greatest toy that anyone has ever gotten them. Because *every* toy is the greatest toy anyone has ever gotten them. It's not junk. Of course, it's not junk. Now, your best friend is getting married and you want to get him something really special. He is a massive toy nut. Are you going to get him a happy meal toy? Or are you going to look for some molds for casting tin soldiers or something else that has more meaning, higher production quality and more significance?

    Why? Because happy meal toys are junk.

    Spending more than 1/4 of your AP on boosts that last 20 seconds and run out of uses before the raid boss is even at 3/4 HP doesn't seem like a good investment. Spending 2 AP on Damage Boost is fine. Spending 2 AP on Healing Amp is great. Burning a few AP on enhancements so that you can get the second tier of Healing Amp if that pushes you over a significant number could be a good idea for some builds. But how can you call 6 AP for +3 to a stat that you only get to have for about 2 minutes per quest a good investment of your AP?

    I'm seriously unimpressed with the majority of the Human tree - ESPECIALLY since the cost of enhancements have gone up significantly so that each AP is more precious than it is today.
    Exactly, and this is all still true even if they fix the bugs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  12. #32
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    I shared your hope until today when I saw that a "major" change to the class enhancements was lowering the top teir minimum AP by 5. Yippie

    My hope is crushed, I now expect suckage from the new system (although I would be VERY happy to be proven wrong here by the devs)
    Despite the fact that they said in the same announcement that they wouldn't do individual enhancement changes yet because there isn't enough BVT (build verification test) time before hadning it off to Lam?

    I think in the longer run we will see cost reductions all around, tier 5 restrictions to limit players from getting more than one pre's tier 5's from any one class taken, and potentially the core abilities will be tree spent as part of their requirement and free.

    Oh and racial tree points may count towards class tree points for requirements.

  13. #33
    The Hatchery
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    Tier 4 racial enhancements now require 15 AP instead of 20. So, with the cost of Healing Amp III, it's 17 total points, as opposed to 12 on live.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Tier 4 racial enhancements now require 15 AP instead of 20. So, with the cost of Healing Amp III, it's 17 total points, as opposed to 12 on live.
    It's fine now, ape approved.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

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