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  1. #1
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    Default A few thoughts after reading...

    Hey y'all hope you are having fun. Just some thoughts after reading the threads here.

    Most of the restrictions are in there so we can see which ones work...and which ones suck. The screws are intentionally tight, AP costs, prereqs, exc, and most likely will not be that way when we go live. The devs intentionally wanted to start at ' most painful' and throttle back instead of most open and then deal with the 'gar nerf' rage when we released. We really try to have a 'no nerf' policy at this point...except when trees are drunk or obvious exploits.

    As for listening, that is what this is all about. This system is 4 days out of alpha by QA standards and is very very raw. We want...no...need player feedback as early as possible. The behind the scenes view from QA goes something like this: Thursday we update Lamania. Monday we collate last week's data and bugs write reports and make charts graphs with glossy photos and stuff. Thursday we update again, new classes and whatnot. rinse repeat. In a month or so after this schedule...the date has not been locked down...or even really talked about yet, we do this all again with the changes, and in my opinion at that point without class restrictions so the multiclassers can break it in all new interesting ways. There probably will be a third pass after that, but at that point stuff will be pretty locked down to how it will be on live. So here is YOUR chance to help us make this right.

    the whole enhancement pass is in response to an alleged or perceived complicated enhancement point allocation process. Is this not actually far more complicated than what we currently have? and more time consuming than simply clicking show unavailable and scrolling up and down?
    Take a few days, and remember when you build a character you are not filling out 20 levels all at the same time. Also, I find build planning potentially easier this way, and I think for some non-hardcore players this is visually easier to understand how to get to a planned goal. Far easier actually. I hate the old system.

    Loss of Freedom
    This is talked about a ton, and nothing is concrete at this point. Enter bugs with examples. Tons and tons of bugs. Make Gazebo cry.

    I like a lot of the feedback already here. Keep it coming!

  2. #2
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    Serious question . . . what are the devs intentions?

    The is some serious stuff in here the shoe-horns us into cookie-cutting "Neverwinter" builds . . . and if I wanted to play a game with that little freedom it might as well be a new one.

    Do you want multiclass building to be vibriant, creative, and a draw to this game? Or do you want building to be dumbed-down to the point the WOW-refugees understand it?
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    Community Member darksol23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    The is some serious stuff in here the shoe-horns us into cookie-cutting "Neverwinter" builds . . . and if I wanted to play a game with that little freedom it might as well be a new one.
    While I don't always agree with Ape_Man, I have to say I was thinking the same thing... DDO has two significant things going for it, very good active combat & character flexibility. I truly hope Turbine doesn't discard one of it's core competencies in order to make it more of a cookiecutter build WoW/NWN/etc clone.


    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    I think multiclassing is better--- if you can find four trees that you are happy with. There is no need to keep yourself on 6,12, or 18 levels splits now to get certain prestige classes. You don't have to get to 20 to obtain a capstone.
    I respectfully disagree. Many of the previous capstones are now in the horizontal "core enhancements" at the bottom of window. Those still require class levels, including the last tier at 20 levels of the class. While the vertical trees may only require 4-5 levels of a class to reach the top tier ability they require an insane amount of AP to reach, about 40-44. That's a significant investment and you loose alot a freedom for multiclass options. Those abilities may "look" like capstones because they are at the top of the tree, but in the current system some of them were obtainable at level 12 with much less AP investment.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    The is some serious stuff in here the shoe-horns us into cookie-cutting "Neverwinter" builds . . . and if I wanted to play a game with that little freedom it might as well be a new one.
    You've spouted this in every thread with minor complaints about individual costs or notes on how a specific current build is broken (screw current builds btw... new building is more fun). But you haven't explained why the new system (not individual alpha-level abilities/costs) is worse. Do you have any constructive words as to how the 1 racial panel, 3 class panel UI plus trees forces cookie-cutter (a.k.a. everyones the same in the end).

    Let's compare the systems on a few points (WALL OF TEXT):

    -Requires 40 AP's to hit top tier PRE abilities - Very similar to old system in that you could have one PRE3 (one PRE2 actually - L12 req)... though now there's more you can take at the summit...and now you could take two PRE2's worth instead. The con being that some of those awesome things require you to max this class panel to take them. So abilities at this top 40AP level should be panel defining, but possibly some abilities that make the game more dynamic and fun should be moved down to a more sharable level (I think ALL WEAPONS ARE CENTERED would qualify here as a move of the plateau). This may be the strongest "Cookie-cutter" argument as two characters with top of the panels will probably have a lot of similar abilities... though how different are current Defender 3's or Shintao 3's? Hmmm... so maybe you're more about the PRE2's current level disappearing...

    -Top of tree only requires class level 5 in many cases. This is just huge in disconnecting what your multiclass levels are to the class panels you use. This means both a 12monk/8ftr and a 20 ftr can be Kensai 3. Though the 20 ftr gets a lot more of the core abilities. Completely unpossible in the current system. The new system mostly lets you take class levels for what those class levels get you w/o worrying what AP's they unlock. Why is this not awesome to people?

    -I only get to pick from 3 class panels While this is sort of a design/UI restriction of the new system it's probably seen by many as "limiting" even though they complain about not having any AP for all 3 panels. Given there's only a few classes up now I'll have to wait and see how multi-class plays out. So far I'm only ending up with a few AP left anyways once racial/top-panel PRE's are done. I do see this as maybe losing one or two "side-tree" sort abilities from current builds - but there's lots of other new abilities to invest in and at least all the top tier ones don't cost 8AP anymore (though they may cost AP to get there).

    -I have to spend AP to unlock top abilities. Yes. But at least you're spending AP on other abilities instead of just paying crazy top-tier costs (Human Amp3 going from 12AP to 6AP). Most things have gone down in AP costs with this system. If you don't like the stuff you have to take to get there then (see below):

    - My defender doesn't want to use a shield/My fighter wants to swing faster/My cleric wants to have enough sp AND blow-up dem level 70 spiders in EEdetour: File bugs, give feedback. These are specific abilities that can be tuned RIGHT NOW. There's both spaces in the trees to add these sort of things as well some one-off-never-use abilities that could be replaced with some intrinsic things the devs lost.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gratch View Post
    Do you have any constructive words . . .
    Scrap the whole system.

    Start over.

    Oh heck, just leave the current system in place while removing some of the feat/AP pre-reqs is better that whats on Lamania.
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  6. #6
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Scrap the whole system.

    Start over.

    Oh heck, just leave the current system in place while removing some of the feat/AP pre-reqs is better that whats on Lamania.
    Yes.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    Yes.


    Yes, Yes.

    A new UI with some AP costs adjusted and some PrE's filled out or reworked would fix everything.
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  8. #8
    The Front Side Gratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Scrap the whole system.
    [Insert sarcastic picture on your extreme failure at construction].

    They're moving on from the current 70's zork text game enhancement interface to 2000's Diablo 2 enhancement GUI interface. This is so a larger audience can understand what they're doing and what they're getting. I don't think removing that part is possible. WB/Turbine money wise you only get new PRE's and enhancement expansion if it helps bring in or maintain a majority of players. There's most likely a ton of exit surveys saying "Enhancement system selection unusable/confusing".

    This IS the second time they've redone the enhancement system with such a large overhaul. The last time we lost a few devs partially due to vociferous forum outcry. But things moved along and got rebalanced. They have to do that to keep the game fresh, keep up with system changes (epic levels, AC/to-hit, spell power (again), and hopefully something on the DC casting side soon). It's a very tough game across so many levels to balance so you don't have DC-casting-always-wins or EpicDestinyX-is-best or helf-is-the-only-useful-race-numbers-wise, but to give options across the board.

    So far I mostly like the system that's there and it appears to be open for adding/changing STUFF. I do hope they add more "build-changer" type abilities - maybe one per PRE panel that aren't at the top of the class tree. Like Kensai's ALL WEAPONS ARE CENTERED or a tempest one that gives full str damage on off-hand or a FVS avenger/Warpriest one that turns damage done into minor aoe healing (why do light monks get all the fun) or a Defender enhancement that removes the shield requirement from the stance.

    Btw... DOUBLE WALL OF TEXT fully trumps "no reason given GET RID OF IT"
    Last edited by Gratch; 04-12-2013 at 12:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    DO NOT DO THIS. We are investigating.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Scrap the whole system.

    Start over.

    Oh heck, just leave the current system in place while removing some of the feat/AP pre-reqs is better that whats on Lamania.
    winner. save the game now and dump all of this new garbage

  10. #10
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    Hey y'all hope you are having fun. Just some thoughts after reading the threads here.

    Most of the restrictions are in there so we can see which ones work...and which ones suck. The screws are intentionally tight, AP costs, prereqs, exc, and most likely will not be that way when we go live. The devs intentionally wanted to start at ' most painful' and throttle back instead of most open and then deal with the 'gar nerf' rage when we released. We really try to have a 'no nerf' policy at this point...except when trees are drunk or obvious exploits.

    As for listening, that is what this is all about. This system is 4 days out of alpha by QA standards and is very very raw. We want...no...need player feedback as early as possible. The behind the scenes view from QA goes something like this: Thursday we update Lamania. Monday we collate last week's data and bugs write reports and make charts graphs with glossy photos and stuff. Thursday we update again, new classes and whatnot. rinse repeat. In a month or so after this schedule...the date has not been locked down...or even really talked about yet, we do this all again with the changes, and in my opinion at that point without class restrictions so the multiclassers can break it in all new interesting ways. There probably will be a third pass after that, but at that point stuff will be pretty locked down to how it will be on live. So here is YOUR chance to help us make this right.



    Take a few days, and remember when you build a character you are not filling out 20 levels all at the same time. Also, I find build planning potentially easier this way, and I think for some non-hardcore players this is visually easier to understand how to get to a planned goal. Far easier actually. I hate the old system.

    This is talked about a ton, and nothing is concrete at this point. Enter bugs with examples. Tons and tons of bugs. Make Gazebo cry.

    I like a lot of the feedback already here. Keep it coming!
    Is there still any chance to change some of the basics like racial stat enhancements? Right now it's quite a nerf with having to put the points in the racial tree to get them. Or changing some enhancements that are just plain horrible like orcish fury? I don't think anyone took orcish fury on live as it doesn't stack and you made it part of the prereqs to get the strenth enhancements. Is there any chance you'll go back and get rid of the skill for spwr system? Having it favor certain classes so heavily is painful just to contemplate especially since it amounts to a build point tax on non-int based casters.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Is there still any chance to change some of the basics like racial stat enhancements? Right now it's quite a nerf with having to put the points in the racial tree to get them.
    This is unintended for races. Core Racial abilities are not intended to require points spent in the tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    Not trying to be sarcastic here, but how do we know what's a bug, and what's by design now? Fighter Haste Boost is no longer available to a level 1 Fighter in either Kensai or Stalwart fighter lines. Is that by design as well, or is that something that should be bug reported? I've been told that was actually something that was overlooked and will be "looked into" eventually.
    We'd love for you to please report it all using the brand new bug reporting tool (linked in my signature).

    There's not much point in our releasing a separate document saying what things "should" be, because that's just one more place where there could be mistakes, or information conflicting with in-game text and in-game functionality. As always, we're much more interested in what you guys think it should be than just telling you what it should be.

    There have been some mistakes and some oversights. We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. For various and sundry reasons it is not in the current build on Lamannia. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.

    The second build I'm concerned about is my caster bard, it has just lost all of its healing spellpower and heal skill is a cross-class skill, meaning max 11 ranks (so with 15 item and 6 wis item about 30 spell power compared to 90 from before). Heal is also a wis based skill and bards really can't afford to buy another base stat (wis was the only stat they didn't need before).

    Spell criticals are now tied to Magical training (a feat bards don't get for free as the other casters (including Artificer) and can't afford with their already very thigh feats).
    Bards still get spellpower and have access to magical Training without spending a feat, but that's a discussion for later this week.

    Bards are not yet ready for testing. We'll talk in two weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Whats different this time around? For me to start reporting [bugs] again, I need to see the difference.
    We replaced the entire bug reporting system, as a start.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    There have been some mistakes and some oversights. We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. For various and sundry reasons it is not in the current build on Lamannia. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    What about Fighter STR III? Wizard Intelligence III? Monk Wisdom III? Etc. Are class-based stats now limited to 2 points now? Why? Just make it one ability with 3 ranks.
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  13. #13
    Community Member legendlore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Bards still get spellpower and have access to magical Training without spending a feat, but that's a discussion for later this week.

    Bards are not yet ready for testing. We'll talk in two weeks.
    Missed this gem from before, thanks for the quick reply.

    I'm all for making the different bard prestiges unique (warchanters halt their spell progression entirely in pnp while caster focused bard prestiges can get level 9 spell progression as an example).

    I'm a bit concerned though that the result will be an extra action point tax for bards to get what others get for free. Artificers are in many ways similar to the bard class. They share a mixed martial/caster play style and both provide nice party buffs and healing (often supplemented with scrolls).

    Artificers now get no less than 3 exotic weapon feats for free to mirror their martial aspect and get the Magical training feat for free as well, they also enjoy a larger base spell pool and damage spells. Making them both more magically and martially adept than a bard.

    Bards already have a history of being action point taxed for their songs as well getting to-hit better than a greater heroism cost a total of 9 ap in the current system and full damage line 12 ap more. With weapons scaled damage dice in epic levels a greater heroism combined with a deadly weapons spell is already in most cases superior to an fully enhanced Inspire courage, yet Artificers don't have to spend a single ap to enhance their deadly weapons. (Now both are best of course but this is just a straight up class comparison).

    Hope this is taken into consideration when revealing the new bard enhancements.

    Looking forward to seeing them.
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  14. #14
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by legendlore View Post
    Artificers now get no less than 3 exotic weapon feats for free to mirror their martial aspect and get the Magical training feat for free as well, they also enjoy a larger base spell pool and damage spells. Making them both more magically and martially adept than a bard.

    Bards already have a history of being action point taxed for their songs as well getting to-hit better than a greater heroism cost a total of 9 ap in the current system and full damage line 12 ap more. With weapons scaled damage dice in epic levels a greater heroism combined with a deadly weapons spell is already in most cases superior to an fully enhanced Inspire courage, yet Artificers don't have to spend a single ap to enhance their deadly weapons. (Now both are best of course but this is just a straight up class comparison).
    I don't think anyone is asking for bards to simply "be more like artificers," but Legendlore makes some good points here.

    Vargouille may be referring to bards getting magical training the way Ellis pointed out that the third tier of ranger's ____ enhancement grants them magical training, but consider a warchanter that splashes fighter and invests in a fighter tree, the warchanter tree, and the other bard tree lacking Magical Training and locks it out. This character has likely also locked out their positive energy spell power autogrants as well.

    This would be major hit to people's ability to craft diverse bard characters.


    Songs
    Please be sure to make songs competitive again. Aashrym or some other bard lover compiled a list of bard song stacking, and it was pretty clear that very, very few songs other than Inspire Competence and Inspire Heroics stack with anything else.

    Off the top of my head:
    Spellsinger morale-typed bonuses not stacking with ship buffs
    Virtuoso vigors not stacking with some other heal over time effects such as Jerky
    Warchanter morale doublestrike bonus not stacking with any items
    etc (if anyone can find the nicely color-coded and researched post about how few bard songs stack with anything, that'd be great)

    I think most of us would agree that we'd prefer bard songs to have smaller boni and stack with everything than have moderate bonuses that stack with almost nothing. At least then you know that when you're chasing after allies trying to sing to them, you haven't completely wasted your time the way you do on Live (barring Inspire Excellence, the one song I know most people will hang around for).
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    Thanks for the response Maj, we kinda need to hear from you guys a bit more, or we're left feeling like we're whistling into the wind and nobody cares. Good to see you're still alive btw, I was starting to wonder.

    I'll try to write something constructive sometime soon, though I suspect it'll take quite a lot of typing (And get rapidly burried by other threads).

    My initial gut reaction is that it just feels sooo restrictive. I currently feel like I can hardly do anything and what I can do costs a fortune. I'm having difficulty vocalizing it into a coherent manner at present though.

    I do appreciate your letting us know that the AP costs etc are intentionally tight and that you only intend it to be a temporary measure. I needs to be temporary though so we can actually test things more thoroughly. We can't know if Encancement X synergizes with Enhancement Y or if it will just make the Server implode, because we can't afford both.

  16. #16
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    I think multiclassing is better--- if you can find four trees that you are happy with. There is no need to keep yourself on 6,12, or 18 levels splits now to get certain prestige classes. You don't have to get to 20 to obtain a capstone. I dislike certain changes, but overall am pretty impressed at the flexibility offered here. I don't know why anyone would even go pure class anymore! (except maybe for caster levels, DCs and spell slots).

    edit: agree that costs across the board are too high.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by psteen1 View Post
    I think multiclassing is better--- if you can find four trees that you are happy with. There is no need to keep yourself on 6,12, or 18 levels splits now to get certain prestige classes. You don't have to get to 20 to obtain a capstone. I dislike certain changes, but overall am pretty impressed at the flexibility offered here. I don't know why anyone would even go pure class anymore! (except maybe for caster levels, DCs and spell slots).

    edit: agree that costs across the board are too high.
    I see potential for the new system to be awesome and epic. My old suggestion to make core abilities only have spent in tree and level requirements would go a long way in helping free up the ap to truly MC in the new system in the level you can in the old. I also said the racial should count towards all class trees. My suggestion thread on ap costs cut a lot down. Perhaps too much, but we never will know unless they make some changes for us to test. Currently, the system is the same cost as it was last round. So adding a few trees to put points in does nothing but make us thin our builds out more. Missing the tier 3-5 abilities that make a particular build shine.

  18. #18
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    I thought that the fact that my Battle Cleric (19C/1F) can only take APs from 3 of the 4 lines initially available to him was a UI bug (since, on Live, if you meet the prerequisites for any enhancement, you can take it). From what I've been told, though, that's actually by design. So I can't bug report that.

    Not trying to be sarcastic here, but how do we know what's a bug, and what's by design now? Fighter Haste Boost is no longer available to a level 1 Fighter in either Kensai or Stalwart fighter lines. Is that by design as well, or is that something that should be bug reported? I've been told that was actually something that was overlooked and will be "looked into" eventually.

    If I report everything I've seen in the new system that I think is a bug, I'll be doing almost nothing else for the majority of the time I'm on Lammania. And so far, from what I've been told by people who have been following this from the start, most of what I think of as "bugs" actually appear to be working as intended.

    I will say I do personally like the UI itself - it looks a little unpolished at the moment, but otherwise is much more intuitive to me.
    Last edited by PNellesen; 04-12-2013 at 08:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  19. #19
    Community Member Silverhilt-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    I will say I do personally like the UI itself - it looks a little unpolished at the moment, but otherwise is much more intuitive to me.
    I disagree here. Sure, it looks all neat and dandy and tree-like when you stand there at the trainer, picking and choosing... But the actual Enhancement Tab on our character sheet, that looks ridiculous 8(
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    I thought that the fact that my Battle Cleric (19C/1F) can only take APs from 3 of the 4 lines initially available to him was a UI bug (since, on Live, if you meet the prerequisites for any enhancement, you can take it). From what I've been told, though, that's actually by design. So I can't bug report that.

    Not trying to be sarcastic here, but how do we know what's a bug, and what's by design now? Fighter Haste Boost is no longer available to a level 1 Fighter in either Kensai or Stalwart fighter lines. Is that by design as well, or is that something that should be bug reported? I've been told that was actually something that was overlooked and will be "looked into" eventually.

    If I report everything I've seen in the new system that I think is a bug, I'll be doing almost nothing else for the majority of the time I'm on Lammania. And so far, from what I've been told by people who have been following this from the start, most of what I think of as "bugs" actually appear to be working as intended.

    I will say I do personally like the UI itself - it looks a little unpolished at the moment, but otherwise is much more intuitive to me.
    He responded to your question: "Loss of Freedom - ...nothing is concrete at this point. Enter bugs with examples. Tons and tons of bugs. Make Gazebo cry."

    Also, this is Alpha - of course it's unpolished

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