As far as opening the floodgates completely... probably not a good idea. But, unless this is prohibitive for you guys, it would be great if next Monday (22nd) you re-release this week's 4 classes for us to see the changes. In all honesty, we will have the next 5 classes fully-digested by the end of that weekend, so you may as well use Monday-Wednesday for feedback on the next iteration of the current 4 classes, if you can.
The biggest changes I would make would be:
1. Make the bottom horizontal line auto-grants based on point spent in THAT tree.
2. Make the vertical line unlocks be based on total points spent, rather than points spent in one tree. (Alternately, if you think this would make getting the highest lines too easy, make points spent in the racial trees count as unlocking for the PrE trees too.)
Making these two changes would greatly ease the AP shortage.
3, Tier 5 in any tree locks out tier 5 from every other tree. This is clearly and obviously a mechanic you guys balanced around, being that it has a "40 AP spent in tree" requirement. The elegance of "only 1 tree can go to tier 5" just by virtue of the 40 AP in tree prereq is game-breaking and unnecessary. Simply have tier 5 lock out all other trees' tier 5 and balance is restored while you're allowed to tweak.
4. Drastically raise the AP spent requirements, since now AP from all trees counts toward it. Remember, tier 5s are already safely balance by locking each other out. Tier 1: 7 AP spent in any tree, Tier 2: 15 AP spent, Tier 3: 30 AP spent, Tier 4: 60 AP spent
5. An just to reiterate points 1 & 2: Core abilities requires points spent in tree, Tiered abilities require points spent in any tree, including racial
Akori-Fighter Iroka-Sorcerer Censured-Rogue Isilti-Cleric Tony-Sorcerer Duress-Cleric Elaril-Fighter Avatard-Fighter Mitigation-Paladin Loose-Bard Shiken-Fighter Unreasonably-Barbarian Jueh-Monk
Vargouille may be referring to bards getting magical training the way Ellis pointed out that the third tier of ranger's ____ enhancement grants them magical training, but consider a warchanter that splashes fighter and invests in a fighter tree, the warchanter tree, and the other bard tree lacking Magical Training and locks it out. This character has likely also locked out their positive energy spell power autogrants as well.
This would be major hit to people's ability to craft diverse bard characters.
Please be sure to make songs competitive again. Aashrym or some other bard lover compiled a list of bard song stacking, and it was pretty clear that very, very few songs other than Inspire Competence and Inspire Heroics stack with anything else.
Off the top of my head:
Spellsinger morale-typed bonuses not stacking with ship buffs
Virtuoso vigors not stacking with some other heal over time effects such as Jerky
Warchanter morale doublestrike bonus not stacking with any items
etc (if anyone can find the nicely color-coded and researched post about how few bard songs stack with anything, that'd be great)
I think most of us would agree that we'd prefer bard songs to have smaller boni and stack with everything than have moderate bonuses that stack with almost nothing. At least then you know that when you're chasing after allies trying to sing to them, you haven't completely wasted your time the way you do on Live (barring Inspire Excellence, the one song I know most people will hang around for).
Meaning the AP gating (provided the "in tree" part is removed) wouldn't force a single AP spent in something you didn't want, with the exception of direct prereqs. This is how it is currently on live.
* We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
* Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here
Without AP gating: an early life build can focus in one tree, avoid waste, and still flesh out their build with useful enhancements relevant to them. Later in the build they may well change enhancements around as they multiclass and start to spread out into 2, 3, 4 trees.
With AP gating: that early life build focusing on one tree initially faces the same problems they do now, which is being forced to spend AP on enhancements they don't want, can't use, and aren't relevant. Actually it's been exacerbated if the AP gating requirements increase!
Perhaps it is because I am looking at the system from both a leveling as well as final build standpoint. I see AP gating detrimental in both cases. Just shifting AP gating from per tree to total helps the final build situation but not the while-leveling aspect. Removing AP gating along with the good autogrant and lock out suggestions improves both situations without any ill effects.
What qualifies as an Innate ability?
The Core Abilities as described in other trees? i.e. the 6 along the bottom including the capstone? So specifically Power Surge, One Cut and Alacrity being the ones after Strike With No Thought, so this would be 14% in total for all of these?
Or does it mean Passive abilities in the tree? Or something else entirely?
EDIT: See description for Toughness from Stalwart Defender, the other Fighter tree
Last edited by Deadlock; 04-14-2013 at 04:29 PM.
The purpose of AP gating is to prevent low level character from getting high level abilities. This is achieved on live by a redundant gate: class level + progression. The same effect can be achieved by progression alone, which would be in keeping with the theme of the new enhancements where "class level" is essentially being done away with. (ie: Tier 5 enhancements only require 5 class levels.)
The key is that the early life build simply shouldn't be able to get the high power enhancements. That's as it should be, as it is on live, as it is on alpha, and as it would be in the proposal to remove "in tree" gates and jack up the "in any tree" gates to 0/7/15/30/60.
The difference in your two scenarios, with and without gating, is that with "in any tree" gating, the early life isn't limited to a single tree. They can fill out they builds with only good stuff because they'd have 4 trees to choose from.
I posted my recommended changes in the nice thread EllisDee started to list everything. I didn't use 'cheated views' into the locked class trees since I want to see them when they are opened. Changes can occur.
Here is the link to my post in that thread:
Many class pre's do not have features that make them desirable. Adding some would cost AP; so they have to retool the entire system. This way they can do this, and clean up the confusing UI that is currently on live.
At least, that is what I am seeing.
I really like the changes. I don't like the restrictions the costs put in place, but it has already been said start weak, build up to strong in terms of why it was started this way.
The new UI makes it very easy to build your Pre and customize it if you have the AP.
Now they need to tune the cost so players get the flexibility they love and the limitations to not break the games core challenge.
On Live right now, other than the very occasional scenario what does AP gating stop you from accomplishing that class level, character level, feat, and enhancements prerequisites doesn't already prevent? I can think of a couple times I've run into AP spend being the problem and was forced to take maybe 1-2 AP wasted to pad the count. That still sucked even if it was 2 wasted AP. If it's not necessary on Live, why do we think it's necessary here?
Last edited by EllisDee37; 04-14-2013 at 07:12 PM.
By the way, you may notice you made my sig.
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