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  1. #21
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    I don't have a huge problem with the shield bonus, but I think it should not be all or nothing. Let those not using a shield and weapon get a 50% of the bonus.

    The cooldown should go though. The stalwart is weakening his defenses to swap to a scroll but he should not have to wait a full minute after switching back to his sword and shield to regain defensive benefits.
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  2. #22
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    I don't have a huge problem with the shield bonus, but I think it should not be all or nothing. Let those not using a shield and weapon get a 50% of the bonus.

    The cooldown should go though. The stalwart is weakening his defenses to swap to a scroll but he should not have to wait a full minute after switching back to his sword and shield to regain defensive benefits.
    Yes. If they are fully committed to making just about everything break the Stance then the cooldown needs to go. Heck, it shouldn't even have to be activated anymore, just make it activate as soon as you meet the requirements; have a weapon and shield equipped. Get rid of the extra click needed to activate it. Just forcing a shield and weapon combo is nerf enough, they're really going overboard here. It's not even a needed nerf, but I can kind of see their point now that they've opened up some aspects of it to be able to be taken by any heavy damage dealing Kensei, they don't want the passive bonuses to be "always on", but still. Heck, even 25% would be better than making it nothing.

    Because, let's face it, using a shield is incredibly suboptimal. You either really build for it or you largely ignore it, maybe break it out in some easy content to shield block, because on Elite shield DR scales very badly without Feats and investments in it. So most damage dealing Kensei types aren't ever going to bother throwing on a shield, they're better off running away very, very fast if a situation gets that sticky. Plus, as long as you have one "tank" type, you don't generally really need another.

    So any Kensei that's getting any of the Stance stuff, which he might just to get some more APs spent for some more "Toughness", is probably going to go through entire quests without ever pulling out a shield once. So, from his point of view he'd be better off with "Item Defense" or something. At least that's something that he can see some benefit from. If there was some benefit to the Stance that was actually passive and if the Stance wasn't such a PITA to not come out of and then be stuck waiting a full minute (in a game with incredibly fast movement and combat), then at least it might rate higher than Item Defense.

    Please Devs. Make the Stance be a better option than Item Defense, so that I can put a few more points in the DEfender Tree. I need the hps you've taken away from me. I need to spend some points in the Defender tree.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 04-16-2013 at 03:50 AM.

  3. #23
    Community Member Draiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I thought one of the great things about DDO was the ability to make a character that uses the build options in new and different ways. Please don't start forcing people into using the "right" way to build and play.

    Flexibility is good, open design is good. Changing stalwart to requiring shield = not good.
    /signed

    DDO, since 2004, has been all about the ability to get creative and successfully build "outside of the box" builds... many of which are incredibly successfull and intensely enjoyable. The overall feeling after the last few updates has been very much the opposite. Many people are arguing that there are only a few viable builds for EE content, and time is proving them correct. Turbine needs to stop this line of thinking and go back to a "Yes, you can do X" attitude as opposed to the "No, you can't do X anymore because of Y".

    I really hope the thought processes start to evolve in a different direction soon. For the first time in nine years, I'm struggling to find enjoyment in my favorite game. I don't like Shiradi Sorc/Wiz builds, Sword and Board Tanks, Arcane Archers, Healbots or Artificers. As a result, I am suddenly no longer a viable player for EE content.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Draiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simonhook View Post
    A shield should be a prerequisite to Stalwart Defender. Common sense would tell me, if you want to be defensive build, a shield and one-handed melee weapon provide much more defense over 2HF and 2WF. And having one-handed melee weapons as a prerequisite, is something I can agree with, to a degree. One-handed melee weapons can be used to defend yourself along with a shield providing the best defensive bonus. Now with throwing weapons with a shield, they could be used to defend yourself as well but not as good, with the exception of shuriken, which can provided no defensive bonus. And now, how can a twig called a wand, or a piece of paper called a scroll, provide any kind of defense? It can't. So I have to agree with that if you use a wand or scroll you loose your defensive bonus from Stalwart Defender stance. Now if you want to use scrolls and wands, they should make Stalwart Defender Stance a passive ability that is applied when you go S&B, and getting rid of the one minute cooldown timer.
    No. A shield should be a requirement to MAXIMIZE the defensive abilities, as is the case... but having one presently equiped should not be a requirement for the ENTIRETY of the PrE benefits.

    If you want to argue the logical reality of a video game, which I always avoid doing... fine. Let's do that. Would a "Stalwart Defender", a master of defensive combat strategies, only be effective in minimizing damage so long as he/she is holding a shield and sword? Or do you think it's feasible that other elements of combat could attribute to their overall defensive strategy? Sure, to completely turtle up and maximize their defensive abilities, it makes sense that they would invest fully in shield proficiencies and such. However, to completely pigeon-hole the entire PrE to a very cookie-cutter kind of build... that's not DDO. That's WoW.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Draiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taojeff View Post
    Though it has not be reviewed, if you wanna tank as a monk, shintao is for you. I got to see it due to a glitch and it was very impressive for tanking. Having monks be able to get both lines would be very op. So I agree with the shield move.
    I'll check it out and hope for the best, Taojeff.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taojeff View Post
    Though it has not be reviewed, if you wanna tank as a monk, shintao is for you. I got to see it due to a glitch and it was very impressive for tanking. Having monks be able to get both lines would be very op. So I agree with the shield move.
    Limiting choices for this weak reason is still bad, IMO. If they are afraid it would be OP, they could just make the bonuses non-stacking. At least then, we would have a choice.
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  7. #27
    Community Member Feithlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draiden View Post
    No. A shield should be a requirement to MAXIMIZE the defensive abilities, as is the case... but having one presently equiped should not be a requirement for the ENTIRETY of the PrE benefits.
    On this I agree completely. There should have general defensive abilities for any build, and some more specific, requiring a shield, which should add more defense and/or add offense to compensate the loss of dps from using a shield (because, let's be honest, if people ask for defensive abilities not requiring a shield, it's because using one adds little to defense and greatly reduces dps).
    Thelanis: Nassim* (F12/P6/M2) - Talienor** (P18/Ra2) - Feithlin** (F12/Bd7/C1) - Stoneoak* (F12/M6/P2) - Hokusai (M17/F2/C1) - Ardence* (Bd15/F3/Ro2) - Matsushiro* (Ro11/M6/P3) | Argonessen: Luneargent (W18/Ro2) - Talienor (Ro20) - Takshir (Bd16/F2/Ro2) - Hiacynthe (C20) | Ghallanda: A bunch of pre DDO Unlimited characters (field of testing for post U19 )

  8. #28
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.
    Thank you, the way things work now on live is fine.
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  10. #30
    Community Member Jay203's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.
    lose the shield requirement
    but grant extra bonus for while wearing shield so that it's tempting to go shield and sword
    PS: Greensteel RUINED the game! and you all know it!
    less buffing, more nerfing!!!
    to make it easier for those of you that wants to avoid me in game, all my characters are in "Bladesworn Mercenaries"

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay203 View Post
    lose the shield requirement
    but grant extra bonus for while wearing shield so that it's tempting to go shield and sword
    Dude . . . for the love of all that is holy . . . WE ALREADY HAVE THIS NOW ON LIVE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.
    By "loosen" I hope you mean "remove".

  13. #33
    Community Member Bzzzt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.
    The current alpha system is set up as a punishment system vs live which is a reward system.

    Alpha punishes the user by removing the abilities when not wielding a shield.
    Live rewards the user with more bonuses when you do wield a shield.

    Possible rework:
    Core Tier 0: Stalwart Defender Stance Grants -10% movement speed & immunity to rage.

    Enhancement Tiers then augment this basic stance in a variety of ways with options that grant extra goodies for Sword and Boarding.

    Tier 1: 2 AP per enhancement per tier.
    Durable Defense: +[5/10/15] Competence to PRR. Grants an additional 5/10/15 PRR if the user is wielding a shield.
    Inciting Defense: +[25/50/75]% Competence melee threat gen. Grants a +5/10/15 to intimidate while blocking with a shield.
    Resilient Defense: +[1/2/3] Competence to all saves. Grants an additional 1/2/3 to all saves while the user is wielding a shield.

    Tier 2: 2 AP per enhancement per tier.
    Hardy Defense: +[2/4/6] Competence to Con. Grants +5/10/15% maximum HP if the user is wielding a shield.
    Strong Defense: + [2/4/6] Competence to Str. Grants an additional 2/4/6 damage if the user is wielding a shield.
    Tenacious Defense Grants: On attacked, user is healed for 1/2/3d3 positive energy (affected by heal amp). While blocking with a shield additionally grants a 10/15/20% Stalwart bonus to positive energy amplification.

    A rework such as this justifies the expensive AP costs with a reward if the user is shield based while not removing the tree from being unviable for being a non-shield wielder. In my opinion this prestige is entirely about the stance. While the tree shouldn't be entirely devoted to enhancing the stance, the majority of it I feel should augment the stance in various ways. As it stands we are being forced between choosing between the three main qualities of the old stance which was so very good. I shouldn't be forced to pick between Strength, Constitution and +%max HP (or Saves, PRR, and Threat Generation). I want all of these and it feels horrendous to be a tank and not being able to take all of them (especially since I used to get all of these as part of the stance).

    tl;dr: Make the Stalwart stance: "Get bonuses. If shield, more bonuses." Not its current: "if shield, get stance."
    Last edited by Bzzzt; 04-17-2013 at 01:19 PM.
    Nope.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We are likely to loosen the shield requirements in Stalwart Defender. This may not be reflected in the next week or two as we focus on other classes.
    At minimum, it'd be nice to see it triggered off Defensive Fighting/CE as well.

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