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  1. #141
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    So 18 points to get Radiant servant 2. wow isnt that whining if i ever heard it. Reason i say that is because doesn't it normally take 42 points before you get it? 18 wow that is just sooooo many compared to 42. what would i do with that missing 24 :P Sorry not trying to nitpick ya but at least have a better rant then that one. 18 is fine.

    I think the protection tree should still be dropped for whatever the prestige we were suppose to get.
    18 points wasted on things I don't want, need and have no use for my character...
    The other 24 are fine I want them and I have some use for them.

    That's 18 points I could have used in another tree that I won't get to use.

    Ok, as Protection is pure fecal mater and I could develop the Disciple tree fairly well even with the 18 lost points, it's a point that can be nitpicked, but, right now on live, the gating is done through total points spent and prerequisites to meet, not points spent in tree that limit the character flexibility. We already told them that they had to change that, they didn't.

    The biggest rant is that the Devs and/or the PHBs are dead set on forcing the whole system down our throat as it is and will not listen to us, and especially to the changes needed to make the system work without crippling character flexibility and making people leave in drove.

    Ok, as I'm back from the Bed, I'll post The Long Version later during the morning. With Numbers and Math and pointed examples.
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  2. #142
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default The insta-kill turning needs to be a toggle

    While running Gianthold Tor today, it occurred to me that being able to instantly destroy undead with the Turn Undead feat is not always a good idea. You see, the insta-kill effect is treated as a death effect and is thus negated by deathward. I think this should be a toggle, for the sake of versatility.

  3. #143
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    So those 18 points, you feel they were wasted, but others may not. You feel that the clickes are a waste, but I actually had fun with them, and just placed those on my hotbars where the equivalent spell already lives.

    I was able to get the cleric bursts, and everything else I wanted. I skiipped taking the aura, and filled up from the divine disciple tree, and I was healing higher than before, damaging higher than before and having fun on a toon I normally reserve for running only when absolutely needed (basically, the FVS is on timer).

    Then with the granted class feats so I could still have unyielding sovereignty, I disagree that we weren't listened to the first time around. I think we have more choices, and I feel that it actually improved pure cleric. The protection tree I wouldn't use for pure cleric, but I can see it being useful for splash builds for sure. I can also see benefits in there for those who play battle clerics, even while that isn't my style, I prefer casting to swinging.

    You seem to feel that it limits the class, but I respectfully disagree. I think it opens it up to account for playstyle much more than currently, where clerics tend to be very cookie cutter builds.
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  4. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    18 points wasted on things I don't want, need and have no use for my character...
    The other 24 are fine I want them and I have some use for them.

    That's 18 points I could have used in another tree that I won't get to use.
    Currently on live, RS2 costs 18 AP you may very well not want. (Plus another 3 AP you definitely do want.)

    Total cost is 21 AP, and of course 6 of that 21 (and 6 of the 18 I mentioned in previous paragraph) are the actual enhancements themselves. (4AP for tier 1, 2AP for tier 2.)

  5. #145

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    I am still strongly opposed to the "points spent in tree" mechanic, but the devs are clearly committed to it. This means we will lose a bunch of veteran players -- most of whom we've already lost -- but hopefully the revamp also brings in some new players. Given this as a framework, here are my cleric suggestions to make it more workable:



    1) Move Radiant Servant II (aura) from tier 5 to the tier 3 core ability where it belongs. Move the existing tier 3 core ability (Improved Empower Healing) to the tier 4 core ability, and just drop the worthless Positive Energy Shield (current tier 4 core) entirely. Nobody cares about that shield, it's fine to dump.

    WHY: Because aura is the only reason someone would play a cleric instead of a FVS. Without aura, there is literally no reason to not just roll up a FVS instead. This means that every single cleric will take radiant servant to tier 5, which in turns means that every single tier 5 ability in the other cleric trees are irrelevant.

    BALANCE: Moving aura to the tier 3 keeps its "12 cleric levels" requirement the same as on live. Giving aura to a 5-cleric splash is WAY overpowered anyway.



    2) Add .5 universal spellpower per point spent in the divine disciple tree.

    WHY: All clerics need healing power, and every point spent in the divine disciple tree costs you healing power. Clerics also need light spellpower -- even darkside clerics -- for dotting with divine punishment. Without an equivalent darkside dot, there's just no way around the need for light spellpower. In order to give light & healing spellpower for both lightside and darkside clerics in a way that doesn't break the theme of the tree, the best solution is to simply grant universal spellpower.

    BALANCE: Getting .5 per point instead of 1 per point is to reflect the fact that divine disciple actually gets spellpower enhancements. If instead you want to make divine disciple consistent with every other caster tree in the game and remove the spellpower lines, have divine disciple grant +1 universal spellpower per point spent.

    EDIT: It appears that "alignment based" spellpower applies to healing, which mitigates much of the complaint in this point. It still leaves light power behind, but it's not nearly as bad as I originally thought.



    3) All racial trees should grant .75 universal spell power per point spent if and only if you have Magical Training. This isn't cleric-specific, nor does it require the actual feat (since rangers can get Magical Training via enhancements) but it is indeed relevant to clerics so it goes in this list.

    WHY: This is a required change; every caster is now losing spellpower for every point spent in any racial tree. That's a core design flaw that this suggestion would fix.

    BALANCE: This is needed but not unbalancing, since no caster worth his salt would spend 20 or more points in a racial tree. That's 15 spellpower tops. Not overpowered, but definitely needed.

  6. #146
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Currently on live, RS2 costs 18 AP you may very well not want. (Plus another 3 AP you definitely do want.)

    Total cost is 21 AP, and of course 6 of that 21 (and 6 of the 18 I mentioned in previous paragraph) are the actual enhancements themselves. (4AP for tier 1, 2AP for tier 2.)
    I know it costs 21 points on live...
    it costs 42 in L-Space and , for one of my cleric, I have to spend 18 points in tree padding due to the stupid Point Spent in Tree mechanism.

    This is my biggest problem with the NGE Enhancement crash, as it just cripple the flexibility we had previously and we will end up with must have tree splits like all the WoW clone games have.
    ( and if you don't have that must have tree split, you're so gimped that you can't play endgame )
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  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    I know it costs 21 points on live...
    it costs 42 in L-Space and , for one of my cleric, I have to spend 18 points in tree padding due to the stupid Point Spent in Tree mechanism.
    Gotcha, I misunderstood.

  8. #148
    Community Member Leclaire1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post

    1) Move Radiant Servant II (aura) from tier 5 to the tier 3 core ability where it belongs. Move the existing tier 3 core ability (Improved Empower Healing) to the tier 4 core ability
    Thank you for suggesting this. +1 Rep. I've been suggesting this since the first pass in the surveys and such. Tier 3 core ability is absolutely the place where the aura belongs. The aura is the iconic and non-negotiable feature of the cleric class, and no cleric will go without it. Without an aura, you might as well just go FVS.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    WHY: Because aura is the only reason someone would play a cleric instead of a FVS. Without aura, there is literally no reason to not just roll up a FVS instead. This means that every single cleric will take radiant servant to tier 5, which in turns means that every single tier 5 ability in the other cleric trees are irrelevant.

    BALANCE: Moving aura to the tier 3 keeps its "12 cleric levels" requirement the same as on live. Giving aura to a 5-cleric splash is WAY overpowered anyway.
    I'll just say Amen. The aura is the iconic and non-negotiable feature of the cleric class, and no cleric will go without it. I'd be tempted to take tier 5 in the new Divine Disciple tree as I like the tree, but will never do so on any toon if it means giving up the aura. Without an aura, you might as well just go FVS. One can't move it down on the tree or we'll simply have all sorts of melees splashing cleric for the aura, which also compromises the integrity of the class. Thanks for suggesting the clear way forward here, I hope the devs are listening.

  9. #149
    Community Member Leclaire1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post

    1) Move Radiant Servant II (aura) from tier 5 to the tier 3 core ability where it belongs. Move the existing tier 3 core ability (Improved Empower Healing) to the tier 4 core ability
    Thank you for suggesting this. +1 Rep. I've been suggesting this since the first pass in the surveys and such. Tier 3 core ability is absolutely the place where the aura belongs.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    WHY: Because aura is the only reason someone would play a cleric instead of a FVS. Without aura, there is literally no reason to not just roll up a FVS instead. This means that every single cleric will take radiant servant to tier 5, which in turns means that every single tier 5 ability in the other cleric trees are irrelevant.

    BALANCE: Moving aura to the tier 3 keeps its "12 cleric levels" requirement the same as on live. Giving aura to a 5-cleric splash is WAY overpowered anyway.
    I'll just say Amen. The aura is the iconic and non-negotiable feature of the cleric class, and no cleric will go without it. I'd be tempted to take tier 5 in the new Divine Disciple tree as I like the tree, but will never do so on any toon if it means giving up the aura. While I do personally like some other features unique to the cleric class, I'd still agree that without an aura, as you said, you might as well just go FVS. One can't move it down on the tree or we'll simply have all sorts of melees splashing cleric for the aura, which also compromises the integrity of the class. Thanks for suggesting the clear way forward here, I hope the devs are listening.

  10. #150
    2015 DDO Players Council Starla70's Avatar
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    Default Still think the DEV's hate clerics

    Having played around with the enhancements, and having my husband pull up his live 23 cleric, comparing notes I have to say I am not liking the break down here.

    Pacifism- Healers have enough problems trying not to get hit, adding a -1 for them just hurts. Taking away the crits on any other spell damage again, Why?

    Bliss... Really, I guess the extra hit points are nice, but so short a time frame, and you loose a point that could be used for other things.

    No Divine Vitality in the healing tree. To get it once again you have to sacrifice points to get it.

    not really sure if turn undead will regenerate as it used to or is it only if you use endless turning?

    Why break all the enhancements into 3 trees? It really weakens the clerics choices if you wish to be a strong healer. Unless of course that is what you are aiming for. I was told by a DEV to put in a bug report, but for whatever reason I can not submit it. So this is my first attempt to go through it all.

    I am unclear on the divine disicple tree the other spells are they mage? Bard? any class?

  11. #151
    2015 DDO Players Council Starla70's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Silverleafeon;4993956]
    Return to your examination of the core rules and the more standard extra books.

    I have played clerics and favored souls extensively.

    The first rule of playing a healer is do NOT ever die. Be the last lady standing.

    The second rule of playing a healer is that you MUST be able to kill when you have to.
    DDO is random temporary grouping not the static type found in pen and paper D&D.

    You are trying to pack too many things into the healing domain.

    Remember what it was ~ the radiant servant and build on that concept since
    pen and paper radiant servants are good healer along with the core healing concepts.

    PLEASE completely forget pacifism concepts, we don't want them.
    We will be very upset if we see them in beta cleric enhancements.
    I hope I have made myself very clear on that point. [QUOTE=Silverleafeon;4993956]


    I totally agree. In packing in too much, so much is lost. I really dislike that pacifism is on the core list. If you must keep it, which I hope you do not, at least move it out of core.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    While running Gianthold Tor today, it occurred to me that being able to instantly destroy undead with the Turn Undead feat is not always a good idea. You see, the insta-kill effect is treated as a death effect and is thus negated by deathward. I think this should be a toggle, for the sake of versatility.
    Instead of a toggle, just have both the "cower" and "instakill" effects apply separately. Then being immune to one does not stop the other.

    Just like red-named Outsiders being immune to the instakill of Banishing weapons but still taking the extra damage from them.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I am still strongly opposed to the "points spent in tree" mechanic
    It seems a totally unneeded restriction. But even worse is how high the numbers are. 20/30/40 points in a tree to get ONE ability you want really sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    1) Move Radiant Servant II (aura) from tier 5 to the tier 3 core ability where it belongs. Move the existing tier 3 core ability (Improved Empower Healing) to the tier 4 core ability, and just drop the worthless Positive Energy Shield (current tier 4 core) entirely. Nobody cares about that shield, it's fine to dump.
    Sounds reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    WHY: Because aura is the only reason someone would play a cleric instead of a FVS. Without aura, there is literally no reason to not just roll up a FVS instead. This means that every single cleric will take radiant servant to tier 5, which in turns means that every single tier 5 ability in the other cleric trees are irrelevant.
    Though I like your suggestion, your justification here is a series of incorrect assertions.

    Perhaps you meant to say the aura is the only reason YOU would play a Cleric over a FvS?

    I fully intend to play my Cleric as a Cleric, not a FvS, with my Tier 5 abilities from Divine Disciple. If I don't have the healing aura, <shrug>.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    2) Add .5 universal spellpower per point spent in the divine disciple tree.
    Or more than 0.5. Yes. Much needed. Put it in line with other caster trees.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 07-03-2013 at 12:44 PM.

  14. #154
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom View Post
    Please share your thoughts on the Cleric Enhancement Trees!
    No problem

    I would very much like to see the following added to the protection tree:

    core: Maul and warhammer proficiencies

    Enhancements:
    1) Divine might (like the paladin's)
    2) A new enhancement: adds a stacking +1 to attack whenever you miss an attack. resets when you finally hit.
    3) Final tier: +1 competence to critical multiplier with blunt weapons (Mauls, hammers, clubs, unarmed etc etc)

    these few changes should make battle clerics a viable build alternative for clerics, without forcing them to splash, and without making them better or as good as other pure melee classes.

    let the dwarven hammer wielding clerics come out to play!

  15. #155
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    Thumbs up well designed , decent tree

    Just checked Divine disciple and i'm overall very impressed. That's a very decent caster tree no doubt about it. It includes every tool offensive caster need to be effective. Only weakness is lower spellpower , but strong spelllike abilities compensate it.

    Well done turbine , clerics got what they deserved for a long time. I'm sure after enhancement pass we will see plenty of clerics trying Disciple with all it's goodies.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post


    BALANCE: Moving aura to the tier 3 keeps its "12 cleric levels" requirement the same as on live. Giving aura to a 5-cleric splash is WAY overpowered anyway.

    I disagree on this point. Greatly. The amount of healing from a level 5 aura is teensie (either 1 or 2 points per tic before spellpower: recall that it is measured off cleric, not character level). So even with 200ish spellpower and 300% healing amp, you're getting, max, 12 hit points back per tick. (Edit: This is probably 3 hit points/tic, since you have the caster level +2 boost going. 18 hit points/tic max-ish on a 5 cleric splash)

    I'd say it borders on useless, with the sole exception being generating charges for the avatar of nature ultimate. And that's a huge AP investment for a potentially situational perk. So I see no reason to restrict it to core, per se. I -guess- you could have a group strategy where the entire raid splashes five cleric, but....oy.
    Last edited by sandypaws; 07-09-2013 at 07:20 AM.
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  17. #157

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    I was lobbying for caster level 20, knowing that was a bit on high side.

    NEW Sunbolt: Maximum caster level lowered to 15.
    I am very, very pleased with this, thank you, please don't lower it below 15.

  18. #158

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    Reported this bug today, and I know this will sound obvious to those who play clerics on live. But for the sake of Dev attention, here goes...

    Radient Savant positive energy aura will not apply to the buff bar if you fire it off without having something targeted. It will still use a turn, but no aura will be generated.

    It acts this way on live currently, and has been this way for over a year now. It's a real pain in the ass if you happen to have a mob targeted that dies JUST before you reapply the aura. The aura used to fire off without requiring a target, but this changed at some point.

  19. #159
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    WHY: Because aura is the only reason someone would play a cleric instead of a FVS. Without aura, there is literally no reason to not just roll up a FVS instead. This means that every single cleric will take radiant servant to tier 5, which in turns means that every single tier 5 ability in the other cleric trees are irrelevant.

    BALANCE: Moving aura to the tier 3 keeps its "12 cleric levels" requirement the same as on live. Giving aura to a 5-cleric splash is WAY overpowered anyway.
    I respectfully disagree with the statement that aura is the only reason players would play a cleric over a Favored Soul. I like clerics for the (free) healing slots, on-the-fly spell swapping, and extra spell slots over favored soul.

    With the enhancements as displayed on Lammania now, clerics have a tasty caster tree and can also dabble in the radiant tree to get the burst. In fact, having just wandered over from the Favored Soul enhancement thread, there are at least some FvS players that are jealous that clerics are getting a better caster tree than they do, with the line of cheap cleric SLAs.

    I have no intention of taking radiant servant on my raid healing clerics, or my lower level TR clerics. I plan on taking either the caster tree, or warpriest (depending on whether they do a good job). *Maybe* my undergeared clerics will take radiant just until I get stepped level gear farmed up to shore up their healing spellpower, but they won't stay there.

  20. #160
    Community Member eachna_gislin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udalric View Post
    Just checked Divine disciple and i'm overall very impressed. That's a very decent caster tree no doubt about it. It includes every tool offensive caster need to be effective. Only weakness is lower spellpower , but strong spelllike abilities compensate it.

    Well done turbine , clerics got what they deserved for a long time. I'm sure after enhancement pass we will see plenty of clerics trying Disciple with all it's goodies.
    Yes, I want to chime in and say I think this is an excellent example of how to do a PreC 'right' under the limitations of the tree structure.

    Cheap SLAs with multiple tiers. Instead of making each SLA cost a flat 2 ap, they cost 1 ap but have 3 tiers. They're also not linked in a chain. It allows the player to spend their ap as they like. You're still going to spend points in the tree to get your capstone and/or tier 5 abilties, but at least you get to put them into things you'd actually want.

    A dual system that makes sense (light vs negative) with a side of universal spellpower for those who want to specialize in something else (conjuration, etc). I feel this is much more natural than the similar paladin system of combining HotD and KotC into an either/or dual system.

    I hope you use this as a template when it comes to designing the warpriest tree.

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