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  1. #101
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    Have any evidence for this, besides your opinion and incredulity?
    My, admittedly, limited experience. The bonuses to throwing axes is fairly useful for my dwarf on live during Heroic levels. He has low dex so the +hit bonuses are helpful. The Throwing Axe helps when enemies are on a high ledge and I can't reach them. Again, a non issue in Epic levels but useful prior. In other words, it makes a fine situational side arm.

    Looking at Grace, I am sure there are situations where a ranged character or (more likely) hybrid ranged character may wish to melee when Manyshot is down (like a medieval long-bowman with an arming sword on his hip).

    And you don't think that Grace could be done as a multi-enhancement selector?
    Grace: Choose 1
    You gain DEX to damage with [weapon set] OR you gain +2 damage with [weapon set].
    Two things:
    1. Maybe it CAN be done but it probably SHOULDN'T be done. Look at all the racial lines. The dwarves get rewarded for investment in CON due to being hearty or for using axes. Drow get clickies that reward them for their CHA or for TWF. Halfings are rewarded for being sneaky. Half-orcs get bonuses which reflect their use of large weapons. Etc etc etc.

    As they progress through their racial trees, they get rewarded for sticking to their archetypes. We ALL know these archetypes. Obviously, if you are making an atypical character, then you may not wish to invest heavily in a racial tree. This is obviously what they are going for.

    What are the elf archetypes? Using bows and casting spells and being dainty lil swordsmen. Some hulking elf thats full of roids probably isn't very Graceful. If you already got dex to damage from another tree then just don't take Grace if you don't want it for bows.

    2. The choice in that selector you suggest is very metagamey. In other words, the player is not choosing between weapon types or different boosts, etc. They are changing the core functionality of an enhancement. So, its basically a munchkinny "hey you arent a very Graceful Elf or you took some other enhancement like this, so take this consolation prize instead!" Again, clunky and unintuitive.
    Last edited by Mister_Shevek; 06-22-2013 at 06:11 PM.

  2. #102
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    My, admittedly, limited experience. The bonuses to throwing axes is fairly useful for my dwarf on live during Heroic levels. He has low dex so the +hit bonuses are helpful. The Throwing Axe helps when enemies are on a high ledge and I can't reach them. Again, a non issue in Epic levels but useful prior. In other words, it makes a fine situational side arm.
    Mostly ranged weapons for melee characters is to hit levers that they wouldn't otherwise be able to hit. Once you get into Epics the monsters will have too many hitpoints (ignoring healing they might be receiving) to make using a ranged weapon for a character not specced in it worthwhile (it would take less time to just ignore them and continue).

    Looking at Grace, I am sure there are situations where a ranged character or (more likely) hybrid ranged character may wish to melee when Manyshot is down (like a medieval long-bowman with an arming sword on his hip).
    Now, a ranged character is more likely to use a melee weapon in combat situations than a melee character using a ranged weapon. However, this isn't enough to justify Grace in its current incarnation. It doesn't give any benefit to most melee Elves, and if it was meant to be a ranged boost only it would say "you may use your DEX to determine damage with Longbows and Shortbows".

    Two things:
    1. Maybe it CAN be done but it probably SHOULDN'T be done. Look at all the racial lines. The dwarves get rewarded for investment in CON due to being hearty or for using axes. Drow get clickies that reward them for their CHA or for TWF. Halfings are rewarded for being sneaky. Half-orcs get bonuses which reflect their use of large weapons. Etc etc etc.

    As they progress through their racial trees, they get rewarded for sticking to their archetypes. We ALL know these archetypes. Obviously, if you are making an atypical character, then you may not wish to invest heavily in a racial tree. This is obviously what they are going for.

    What are the elf archetypes? Using bows and casting spells and being dainty lil swordsmen. Some hulking elf thats full of roids probably isn't very Graceful. If you already got dex to damage from another tree then just don't take Grace if you don't want it for bows.
    The problem is that "atypical Elves" that use Falchions and want high DEX are just doomed to failure, and the "typical Elves" that use one-handed weapons and want high DEX have no reason to take Grace because they already get more benefit from similar enhancements in Tempest, Deepwood Stalker, or Assassin, or their class doesn't lend itself to "typical Elf" high DEX low STR.

    Though to be honest, in the context of DDO higher DEX and lower CON than a similar human is "typical Elf", and Elves can be just strong as other races. Also the current standard on live is for Elves to have higher STR than DEX (and this is even true of Halflings which get -2 STR and +2 DEX). Your talk of "elf thats full of roids" [sic] doesn't really apply to DDO (where characters can have over 80 STR), not to mention that a character can be strong and dexterous.

    2. The choice in that selector you suggest is very metagamey. In other words, the player is not choosing between weapon types or different boosts, etc. They are changing the core functionality of an enhancement. So, its basically a munchkinny "hey you arent a very Graceful Elf or you took some other enhancement like this, so take this consolation prize instead!" Again, clunky and unintuitive.
    There are really only two ways of fixing the enhancement. The first is what I suggested, normally you would get DEX to damage but if you already have that you could select a modest damage boost instead. The other would be to make it give DEX to damage AND something else that would be desirable for people simultaneously for all weapons in the particular set (as in, DEX+2 to damage) though my suggestion is the less powerful one.

  3. #103
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    I must tell people that on the new pass, I could finally invest on my AA tree and still have decent leftovers to keep my bard kinda bardic. She was my only character that could NOT be reproduced or improved from live in the first pass, but I am satisfied with her by now.



    Most of it is because they took off the racial core enhancements "points in tree" pre-requisites. The major drawback is that her IC dropped from +4 hit, +6 damage to +4 hit, +3 damage. On the other hand, I can bypass any kind of DR with my Tier 1 Pinion, got the spellsinger songs, and can cause major debuffs with the elemental stances.
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  4. #104

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    It's been a while since I did an elf AA build, and correct me if I am wrong, but back then it didn't seem to take 14 AP just to unlock the AA tree like it does on lammania right now. I can get all the stuff I want in AA, but can't take nearly enough from fighter, and that's considering if I don't take a single point more than I need to in the elf tree. It just seems really expensive to unlock the tree.

  5. #105
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatfox View Post
    It's been a while since I did an elf AA build, and correct me if I am wrong, but back then it didn't seem to take 14 AP just to unlock the AA tree like it does on lammania right now.
    No, but it takes three feats (well, two. every archer want PBS). And the core elf enhancements are good for archers (raise PBS range and give 6% to-hit). On the first pass I noticed I was forced to spend a lot of AP on unnecessary things to unlock AA. Noe every elf enhancement I invested I found useful.

    I forfeit the top AA core enhancements so that I dont need to invest 40 points in tree (also another change, we had to invest 40 points before to take tier 5 abilities). And got enough spellsinger stuff to keep my positive spellpower very close to what I have on live today.

    The key here is that you can't get top tier stuff in two trees, so you have to choose. Choices are good. I struggled a bit, and loved the new changes.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatfox View Post
    It's been a while since I did an elf AA build, and correct me if I am wrong, but back then it didn't seem to take 14 AP just to unlock the AA tree like it does on lammania right now. I can get all the stuff I want in AA, but can't take nearly enough from fighter, and that's considering if I don't take a single point more than I need to in the elf tree. It just seems really expensive to unlock the tree.

    It is a bit expensive to unlock AA. Before it took feats, now it takes AP. Though a ranger AA doesn't have to deal with those AP requirements.

    Elf has to spend enough AP into the Racial Tree, and then spend another 4 AP on top of that who's sole purpose is to unlock the tree and offers no bonuses. At least with the feat requirement you're still getting some benefits from the feats themselves. Not to mention that the Elf version of Arcane Archer gains access to the capstone abilities much later than before.

    I think there really should be just one those restrictions. Either you have to buy the Arcane Archer enhancement for 4 AP, or you get the Core abilities later.
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  7. #107
    Community Member Voxreal's Avatar
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    Post PrE's

    I can agree with getting the abilities at a later time then from the class PrE's but to have to spend 14 AP and then 4 AP on top just to unlock the tree and get 0 bonus from that is a bit steep.

    Also Elves are arcane the suggestions for enhancements that add to Spell power would be good for them and would make the -2 to con a little more acceptable for most of the player base.


    Lastly why is it that elves are still the only race with PrE's?

  8. #108
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Default Grace Question

    If I am reading the newest version of Grace properly, it now says I can use my dex to hit. When I select the weapon set, it says I can use dex as the modifier for Damage... So which one is it guys, to hit or damage? If it is damage, what happens to bow strength?
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    If I am reading the newest version of Grace properly, it now says I can use my dex to hit. When I select the weapon set, it says I can use dex as the modifier for Damage... So which one is it guys, to hit or damage? If it is damage, what happens to bow strength?
    The granted enhancement, when examined through the character sheet, says damage and does not say attack (= to-hit).

  10. #110
    Community Member darkrhavyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that Toughness was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

    Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability (a feat that all characters start with at level 1), and characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. (That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.)
    Can you explain the rational to this? Racial enhancements are based on character level, not class...why change that? And for the record, tis change isn't going to make toughness as a feat LESS needed, it will make it more, in fact encouraging stacking as you are cutting out the way characters get HP, required to survive the higher levels of the game. If the only way I can get the HP from the prior enhancements is to take a certain tree, then you decrease my options, while making me even more feat starved on most classes.
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  11. #111
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    Not happy with grace being so high up in the tree.
    I want to play as a dex based archer but I have to wait till I spent a stupid amount of points to reach the enhancement. Leaving me with nothing to put in the class trees for many levels. It seems like a bad deal just to have dex as a damage modifier. Might as well just stick to STR bow builds.

  12. #112
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    I had a thought:

    How about a low level enhancement to make Weapon Finesse work on elf weapons, and grace stays the same? So you'd be able to play a dex melee fighter the whole way through, for both attack and damage, but you require a feat so dex isn't "too powerful"?

    Edit: The problem still wouldn't be completely alleviated. There are lots of good feats (two handed fighting line, overwhelming critical) that require strength. But no dex-based feats that require more than 13 than a two handed fighter would be interested in.
    Last edited by BentoBox; 07-12-2013 at 03:37 PM.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    No, but it takes three feats (well, two. every archer want PBS). And the core elf enhancements are good for archers (raise PBS range and give 6% to-hit). On the first pass I noticed I was forced to spend a lot of AP on unnecessary things to unlock AA. Noe every elf enhancement I invested I found useful.

    I forfeit the top AA core enhancements so that I dont need to invest 40 points in tree (also another change, we had to invest 40 points before to take tier 5 abilities). And got enough spellsinger stuff to keep my positive spellpower very close to what I have on live today.

    The key here is that you can't get top tier stuff in two trees, so you have to choose. Choices are good. I struggled a bit, and loved the new changes.
    Yeah but you still need those feats. It's not like they are handing out PBS and the other ranged feats for free, you still need to take them to be a good AA. And now you have to spend 14 AP on top of that to unlock it. Previously the only thing it required to unlock was weapon focus ranged, PBS, and either an enhancement from bard/sorc/wiz that gave sp, or the sorc past life feat which gave sp, to ensure you had some sp to activate the abilities. Now you still have to get some sp but you get it directly from the elf tree, but it costs 14 AP instead of the 1 AP for one of those enhancements. Then to unlock the tree itself costs 4 AP on live, making it 5 AP total to unlock AA, or 4 AP and a feat, and those 4 AP also give you 20 sp and the ability to conjure +1 arrows right away. And now the arrow conjuring is a separate thing too which costs another 2 AP. That's 16 AP needing to be spent compared to 5 on live. Sure, it probably also required you to multiclass on live, but so what? It was probably a great benefit for your build. You know what I did last time I made a fighter AA? I took a level of ranger and a level of wizard; got bow strength for free, and mental toughness for free, a feat I needed for ranged damage and the other to unlock the AA tree. Which also meant I only had to spend 4 AP to unlock the AA tree. And I got grease as a spell!! It was GREAT! So, going from 4 AP to 16 just REALLY kills my build; I can't take nearly enough from kensai anymore and while I agree that the elf abilities might be good for archers I would still rather be able to take more from kensai. And yes, it does tick me off that on top of ALL those costs I also can't take the cool tier 5 AA stuff and the kensai improved crit range. Just adds insult to injury, not that I could afford to get to the top of the kensai tree anyway...or even half way up it.
    Last edited by thegreatfox; 07-14-2013 at 09:05 AM.

  14. #114
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post

    No matter how you try to spin it, Grace is not worth taking in the upcoming system unless you're an Archer since all of the melees who would want it already get it as part of the Core abilities of their PrE (and that one isn't restricted to 3 weapons).
    WORKS FOR ME ....... 18 of my 25 toons are archers .... the other 7 have not been rolled yet. I was waiting for Shadowfell launch
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  15. #115
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I must tell people that on the new pass, I could finally invest on my AA tree and still have decent leftovers to keep my bard kinda bardic.
    See this is the only build that I am really concerned about. I am running a 16 Bard / 2 Fighter / 2 Ranger Elven AA Spell Singer.

    I had a hard enough time getting this one to work "well" the first time ..... I would imagine this time will be equally as challenging
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  16. #116
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    The weapon tree needs to be updated. The bows need to be separated from the melee weapons. The current method on Lama is a major issue for elven rangers esp, as the preferred weapon of Scimitar is paired with a shortbow. No one uses those, there aren't even many good named or epic shortbows. So split these out like they are now. A melee choice between LS/Rapier and Scimitar/Falchion. Then a bow bonus that affects both long and shortbows. This is seriously a big issue for me as I only play elves and I take the current incarnation of these all the time.

    Please split this up

  17. #117
    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealKorike View Post
    The weapon tree needs to be updated. The bows need to be separated from the melee weapons. The current method on Lama is a major issue for elven rangers esp, as the preferred weapon of Scimitar is paired with a shortbow. No one uses those, there aren't even many good named or epic shortbows. So split these out like they are now. A melee choice between LS/Rapier and Scimitar/Falchion. Then a bow bonus that affects both long and shortbows. This is seriously a big issue for me as I only play elves and I take the current incarnation of these all the time.

    Please split this up
    I see the weapon enhancements as very much meshing with the ranger class, and the view that elves make great rangers. It lets you choose the best weapon for your primary combat style and also get something for your secondary combat style. For instance, archers get bonuses to longbows (the best of the elven ranged weapons) while also getting bonuses to longswords (not the best of the elven melee weapons). Meanwhile, TWFers get bonuses to scimitars (the best of the elven melee weapons) while also getting bonuses to shortbows (not the best of the elven ranged weapons). I actually like this setup the way it is.

  18. #118
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skellimancer View Post
    Not happy with grace being so high up in the tree.
    I want to play as a dex based archer but I have to wait till I spent a stupid amount of points to reach the enhancement. Leaving me with nothing to put in the class trees for many levels. It seems like a bad deal just to have dex as a damage modifier. Might as well just stick to STR bow builds.
    +1. I have tried a elf cleric, and it's a terrible option. Too expensive and i can pick if too late.

    And I should spend five points for the elven arcanum with a wizard? five points in useless stuff for a wizard? Turbine, please! Common sense here!

    Points spent in the tree kills the racial trees. Yes, not free races too. do you want sell races in the store? really?
    Last edited by Iriale; 07-24-2013 at 05:51 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  19. #119
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    The viability of elven wizards feels a lot less in the new system versus other races. I do think that elven casters could use a bit more to make them viable. Even a couple of the changes below would be a big help.

    1. Change Elven Dexterity to: Elven Dexterity or Elven Intelligence (Basically gives a choice between Int or Dex). This would make the tree a little more attractive.
    2. Enchantment lore: is very expensive for a +1 DC bonus. Either make the ranks cheaper or increase the bonus to +1 DC per rank.
    3. Arcane Fluidity: adding a minor spellpower boost (+10 per rank) would make the ability feel a lot better.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    If I am reading the newest version of Grace properly, it now says I can use my dex to hit. When I select the weapon set, it says I can use dex as the modifier for Damage... So which one is it guys, to hit or damage? If it is damage, what happens to bow strength?
    Can anyone on Lam confirm what happens with bow strength? Seen this question twice now and still unanswered.

    With Grace and Bow Strength does damage stack?

    Proud member of the Extreme Explorers permadeath guild on Sarlona.

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