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  1. #81
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    Something positive for a change:

    I like the elven weapon training line.
    I like getting displacement clicky with only 1 feat and some AP. DM
    I like grace. My character gets +dam and +hit from dex anyways but its still nice.
    I like skill.

    Lots of nice and useful abilities here. Much better then some of the other races I have checked.

    What would really make me go nuts (in a good way) would be to get racial prestige as toggle AA or Tempest. Turbine - make it so.

  2. #82
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    I would love to see the +2% to-hit bonuses from the core abilities turned into doublestrike (bonus to-hit seems extremely lackluster) and have them also grant Universal Spell Power (something like 5 per tier).

    Child of Nature should really be replaced by something based on INT.

    Nothing Is Hidden looks really cool, though I am a bit worried about the cost, especially for something that just saves a couple of seconds here and there. I can't see myself buying it except as an afterthought as it is (and only if I had enough AP to get the last tier).

    Enchantment Lore looks pretty cool. Perhaps add another +1 bonus to Enchantment DCs at the second level though?

    Binding Shadows looks fairly terrible as it currently is. Perhaps if it prevented mobs from regaining the levels for a minute or so and there were multiple uses it /might/ be worth it. At the moment, I would never take it.

    If Grace gives damage based on DEX, then it would be awesome. If it just gives a weaker version of Weapon Finesse it would be awful. Please let it grant damage.

    There /needs/ to be something for Elven casters in tier 4. My suggestion: Have an Improved Arcanum enhancement line that grants Universal Spell Power (and that requires Arcanum of the same tier). This would serve a dual-purpose of giving Elves a Tier 4 enhancement line for casters, and give Elves something that increases Universal Spell Power in general.

  3. #83
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that Grace needs just a little something extra. It simply isn't useful to many melee Elves.

    I can't really see an Elf Barbarian or an Elf Fighter taking Grace ever. Elf Rogues already get DEX to Damage as part of either Acrobat or Assassin trees (and INT to damage in Mechanic). Elf Rangers already get DEX to damage for Scimitars and all light weapons. For most melee Elf builds, I cannot see this being useful.

    What I can see this being useful for is Archers (only having to worry about boosting DEX for both Damage and To-Hit would be nice), and Elven melee Bards/Clerics/FvS (possibly also Wizard/Sorc though I doubt many of those will be built).

    However, the fact that most Elven melee characters will have absolutely NO reason to take this enhancement is a problem. I believe that a relatively simple change could remedy this though. Change the enhancement to read: "You may use DEX to determine the damage you deal with [chosen set of Elven weapons]. If you already use DEX to determine your damage with any of these weapons or if your STR is higher than your DEX, you gain an extra +2 damage when wielding those weapons."

    This change would make Grace useful for a wide variety of Elven melee characters, not just those who are not Fighters, not Barbarians, not Rogues, and not Rangers.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    I would love to see the +2% to-hit bonuses from the core abilities turned into doublestrike (bonus to-hit seems extremely lackluster) and have them also grant Universal Spell Power (something like 5 per tier).

    That seems very overpowered when compared to other racial enhancements. Personally, the elf enhancements already look better than most other racials. I mean...

    You gain 3% melee doublestrike, 3% extra shot chance, 3% dodge, and bypass 3% dodge
    Also, I rather like the +hit as it helps those with lower BAB. This fits both the theme of the race (accurate, elegant, etc) and couples well with the racial PRE.

    If this goes live, I am seriously gonna start an Elven Cleric just so he can go full dex (just enough wis to cast spells) and be an Arcane Archer with some points in the Cleric Healing line. The dex to damage on bows is great.

    Also, who is to say that the dex to damage from this line cant open up possibilities for melee? I can see the benefits of a dex heavy melee build (particularly multiclasses) that doesnt have to dip into Assassin or Tempest lines. This increases overall player choice.

    And the ability to use dex for dmg on a two hander? Wow, awesome. For example, a player may decide to ignore the THF line (since it is drastically underpowered anyway) and take just enough STR for power attack, go full dex and falchion. That could be quite good IMHO (especially on a fighter/rogue multi that has evasion). The +hit will even help negate some of the attack lost by having PA on, awesome! This is especially broken considering the insane crit range falchions get.

    Anywho, this all sounds too good. I'm sure it'll be nerfed.

  5. #85
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    That seems very overpowered when compared to other racial enhancements. Personally, the elf enhancements already look better than most other racials. I mean...
    Skill is awesome, and is the best enhancement in the entire tree.

    Also, I rather like the +hit as it helps those with lower BAB. This fits both the theme of the race (accurate, elegant, etc) and couples well with the racial PRE.
    The main problem with it is that there is absolutely NOTHING in the Core Elven enhancements that give any sort of boost to a caster.

    If this goes live, I am seriously gonna start an Elven Cleric just so he can go full dex (just enough wis to cast spells) and be an Arcane Archer with some points in the Cleric Healing line. The dex to damage on bows is great.
    I agree, DEX to damage on Bows will be awesome. The problem, as I said in my earlier post, is that there is almost NO incentive for a MELEE character to take Grace.

    Also, who is to say that the dex to damage from this line cant open up possibilities for melee? I can see the benefits of a dex heavy melee build (particularly multiclasses) that doesnt have to dip into Assassin or Tempest lines. This increases overall player choice.
    The character would need to be a non-Rogue non-Ranger non-Barbarian, who doesn't use any tactical feats (since those are based off of strength), and isn't interested in overwhelming critical. See how that might be a little limiting? While it would be possible to build a Fighter around Grace, that Fighter wouldn't be able to use Stunning Blow, Improved Sunder, or Trip to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is that the classes who would be most inclined to want DEX-to-damage already get it.

    And the ability to use dex for dmg on a two hander? Wow, awesome. For example, a player may decide to ignore the THF line (since it is drastically underpowered anyway) and take just enough STR for power attack, go full dex and falchion. That could be quite good IMHO (especially on a fighter/rogue multi that has evasion).
    You need a 50+ Reflex Save for Evasion to work in EEs. Let's say you're doing Rogue 2/Fighter 18. That's +3 save from Rogue levels and +6 from Fighter levels. 20 DEX with all level-ups gives another +8. Let's also say that you buy 4 ED DEX enhancements, both Elf DEX enhancements, and both Fighter DEX enhancements for another +4. +4 Tome gives another +2. You can get +6 from Shadowdancer and another +6 from Magistar. An 8 DEX enhancement item, 1 exceptional DEX, and 3 Insightful DEX items for another +6. If you use the Stalwart Defender stance you could get an extra +3. You could get Good Luck for another +2. Alchemical can give you another +1. After all of that, you have a Reflex Save of 47.

    So you're wearing sub-par armour, not twisting DPS enhancements, don't have Overwhelming Critical, can't use any of the tactical feats to great effect, you have a MUCH lower PRR, and your glancing blow damage isn't as high. But congrats, you've traded all of that for Evasion that works some of the time.

    EDIT: When the level-cap increases you'll be able to get a total of +4 for Epic Level saves increases, bringing you to a 51, and GH can give you another 4 for a total of 55. This means you can sacrifice everything else your character could do in order to have workable Evasion in EEs. Honestly I still can't say that it is a good tradeoff.

    The +hit will even help negate some of the attack lost by having PA on, awesome!
    I can't say I've ever known a Fighter to have to-hit problems while running Power Attack.

    This is especially broken considering the insane crit range falchions get.
    Maybe we have different definitions of broken.
    Last edited by AylinIsAwesome; 06-17-2013 at 11:52 PM.

  6. #86
    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    The main problem with it is that there is absolutely NOTHING in the Core Elven enhancements that give any sort of boost to a caster.
    True there's nothing in Elf "core abilities" for casters, but I don't see that as a problem. There's only limited room in the "core abilities", and if you look at the core abilities for various races you'll see that these only focus on 2-3 things per race. Dwarven core abilities don't have any axe bonuses, is that a problem? Half-orc core abilities don't have any two handed fighting bonuses. Halfling core abilities don't have any sneak attack bonuses. Etc. Not really a problem. To realize most of the enhancements you have to dip into the tiers. Which, you have to dip into anyway in order to advance the core abilities.

    Looking at the Elf tiers, there are several enhancement lines that are specifically aimed at casters. This is certainly more than any other race.

    Arcane Fluidity: Your arcane spell failure chance while wearing armor is decreased by 5%/10%/15%.

    Enchantment Lore: +2/+4/+6 saves vs. Enchantments. Rank 3: You also gain +1 Enchantment spell DC.

    Arcanum: +25/+50/+100 spell points and +1/+2/+3 spell penetration.

    Fey Sight: While you have 100 or more spell points, you can see things as they truly are. You are able to see invisible creatures and pierce illusions.

  7. #87
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreppo View Post
    True there's nothing in Elf "core abilities" for casters, but I don't see that as a problem. There's only limited room in the "core abilities", and if you look at the core abilities for various races you'll see that these only focus on 2-3 things per race. Dwarven core abilities don't have any axe bonuses, is that a problem? Half-orc core abilities don't have any two handed fighting bonuses. Halfling core abilities don't have any sneak attack bonuses. Etc. Not really a problem. To realize most of the enhancements you have to dip into the tiers. Which, you have to dip into anyway in order to advance the core abilities.
    Let's go through them then, shall we?

    Dwarves get 2x +1 CON and 3x +10 HP. Casters, ranged, and melee characters can all benefit from more CON and more HP.

    Halfings get 2x +1 DEX and 3x +1 to all saves. The DEX is really only useful to ranged or melee characters, but the bonus to saves, again, benefits all character types.

    Half Orcs get 2x +1 STR and 1x +2 STR when below 50% HP and 2x complete junk (at least the 50% one can happen occasionally). However, if you don't think these core enhancements provide any benefit to THF, exactly WHAT stat do you think determines to-hit and damage (as well as DCs of tactical feats) for Two-Handed weapons?

    As for the races you didn't mention:

    Drow get 2x +1 DEX/INT/CHA and 3x +2 SR. The DEX is the same as the Halflings, but the INT and CHA are useful for Wizards, Sorcerers, and Artificers. SR is useful, particularly for low will-save characters.

    Half Elves get 1x nothing, 2x boosts to stats of choice (cannot be the same unless it is DEX), and 2x Human Action Boost enhancements. I don't think I need to explain why this can benefit any type of character.

    Humans get 2x boosts to stats of choice (cannot be the same) and 3x Human Action Boost enhancements. Again, shouldn't need to explain why these are useful.

    Warforged get 2x +1 CON and 3x Fort boosting enhancements. The CON is useful to any character, the fort is moderately useful to a point. Again, there is something useful here to any type of character.

    Now Elves: 2x +1 DEX and 3x +2% attack. The DEX helps ranged or melee using Weapon Finesse. The +2% attack helps...someone trying to use a weapon they aren't proficient in? Besides Horcs (who are solely focused on THF damage) this is the ONLY race with core enhancements that only benefit a narrow margin of all character types.

    Looking at the Elf tiers, there are several enhancement lines that are specifically aimed at casters. This is certainly more than any other race.

    Arcane Fluidity: Your arcane spell failure chance while wearing armor is decreased by 5%/10%/15%.
    The fact that it doesn't work on shields is pretty lame. I guess you could use it to wear the light or medium (with an ASF sapphire in the blue slot) flawless bluescale, though the value here is a bit dubious. But since it could possible benefit a caster, sure, I'll give you this one.

    Enchantment Lore: +2/+4/+6 saves vs. Enchantments. Rank 3: You also gain +1 Enchantment spell DC.

    Arcanum: +25/+50/+100 spell points and +1/+2/+3 spell penetration.
    These two are good.

    Fey Sight: While you have 100 or more spell points, you can see things as they truly are. You are able to see invisible creatures and pierce illusions.
    This is not a caster enhancement, it is an enhancement for undergeared Paladins and Rangers since a caster would just use a scroll of True Seeing.


    So Elves have three caster-focused enhancements in their entire tree. Now let's look at the enhancements some of the other races get.

    Half Elves:
    +1 enhancement to casting stat
    Action Boost: +20 USP for 20s
    Arcane Fluidity
    Improved Recovery (particularly useful for casters that scroll-heal themselves)
    Improved Spellcasting (+6 USP with dilly in any caster class)
    Arcanum
    Bonus to casting stat while any action boost is active

    Perhaps it is just me, but that looks like a LOT more than 3.

    Drow:
    +2 to INT/CHA
    Arcane Fluidity
    Enchantment Lore

    So -3 Spell Pen and some SP from an Elf, but +2 DCs if you are arcane.

    Humans:
    +1 to casting stat
    Action Boost: +20 USP for 20s
    +3 to casting stat and CON when using an action boost
    +10 USP when using staff/orb
    Improved Recovery


    Oh, not to mention that Humans and Helves don't get the -2 CON that Elves suffer.

    Why would you claim that Elves get "...more than any other race" when it comes to caster enhancement when it is so easy to see that it isn't true?

    Seriously, there is absolutely NO reason to choose Elf over Helf (the one caster enhancement that Elves have that Helves don't [Enchantment Lore] becomes pretty meaningless since Helves can get to a higher tier of the casting stat giving a +1 DC to all spell schools). Do you honestly not recognize this as a problem?
    Last edited by AylinIsAwesome; 06-18-2013 at 05:40 AM.

  8. #88
    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    You spent most of your post comparing elves to other races overall in terms of being a good choice for a caster. I wasn't trying to compare them at all. I'm not saying elves are the absolute best caster race -- they aren't, though they look to have enough to make them a competitive choice.

    I'm only making one point and I'll reiterate it here: Why do the caster-related enhancements need to be in the "core abilities"? Isn't it sufficient that they are there, in the teirs? Given that there's only room in the core abilities for a couple of enhancements, a lot of stuff needs to be in the tiers, even stuff that is "race-defining". I gave a few examples (not intended to be a complete list) of race-defining enhancements that were not in the core abilities but were instead in the tiers.

    Now one thing I gather from your post is you have an opinion that the core abilities should only have stuff that is applicable to every type of toon if possible. If that's a goal (and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this goal), then putting caster-specific enhancements into the core abilities isn't really appropriate either because those would be wasted on pure melee.

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    The character would need to be a non-Rogue non-Ranger non-Barbarian, who doesn't use any tactical feats (since those are based off of strength), and isn't interested in overwhelming critical. See how that might be a little limiting? While it would be possible to build a Fighter around Grace, that Fighter wouldn't be able to use Stunning Blow, Improved Sunder, or Trip to any meaningful degree.

    The problem is that the classes who would be most inclined to want DEX-to-damage already get it.
    This is untrue. The class does not get dex damage, enhancement trees in that class do. In other words, picking up the dex to damage from this tree allows the players to focus on other trees instead. For example, what if you have levels of rogue just for traps? You can dip into the mechanic tree and use the bulk of your points in other trees. Also the AA tree doesn't give dex to damage...

    Theres some other neat stuff you can do. I can see a player dipping into Pally for saves, then going Rogue (mechanic for traps/umd) to 6 and Kensai up to 12 to be pretty wicked with that Falchion. Sure, no overwhelming crit, but they get plenty in exchange.

    I can't say I've ever known a Fighter to have to-hit problems while running Power Attack.
    Who is to say that is to help only fighters? What about multiclasses, casters, etc?

    Anywho, you are just railing against what is given instead of opening yourself up to the possibilites it presents.
    Last edited by Mister_Shevek; 06-21-2013 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #90
    Community Member mezzorco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    I can see a player dipping into Pally for saves, then going Rogue (mechanic for traps/umd) to 6 and Kensai up to 12 to be pretty wicked with that Falchion. Sure, no overwhelming crit, but they get plenty in exchange
    Imagine same build, 2/6/12, but strenght focused. Let's compare
    Trap skills use int, so no difference.

    Going strenght you lose:
    -ref for evasion

    You gain:
    -potentially more damage (you can raise str more easily)
    -THF feats (LOT of damage)
    -overwhelming crit (you want it)
    -you can make a use of power surge (wouldn't stack going dex)
    -prr


    Seriously, dex with falchion is not a good idea, not as goog as strenght. Not counting you would do even better chosing horc, dwarf or warforged. But this is not the point.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by mezzorco View Post
    Imagine same build, 2/6/12, but strenght focused. Let's compare
    Trap skills use int, so no difference.

    Going strenght you lose:
    -ref for evasion

    You gain:
    -potentially more damage (you can raise str more easily)
    -THF feats (LOT of damage)
    -overwhelming crit (you want it)
    -you can make a use of power surge (wouldn't stack going dex)
    -prr


    Seriously, dex with falchion is not a good idea, not as goog as strenght. Not counting you would do even better chosing horc, dwarf or warforged. But this is not the point.
    THF line isn't that great imho but, whatever. You can still potentially get it with 13 str (enough for PA, Cleave, and Great Cleave - which are way better btw) ad tomes. Loss of PRR... eh, I'll take evasion with high reflex saves, tyvm. You are right about power surge (maybe just 8 levels of fighter I guess, take rogue to 10 for the rogue special feat, more SA and skills) and overwhelming crit (gotta give a lil to get a lil). Also, a dex build would be far far better at stealth if a player wanted to go that route.

    Moreover, who is to say one can't simply approach the dex to damage on the falchion as giving archers a viable sidearm if they feel the need to melee? Manyshot isn't up all the time.

  12. #92
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreppo View Post
    You spent most of your post comparing elves to other races overall in terms of being a good choice for a caster. I wasn't trying to compare them at all. I'm not saying elves are the absolute best caster race -- they aren't, though they look to have enough to make them a competitive choice.
    You say they're competitive, but also say that you aren't trying to compare them to other races? It is impossible to declare the something is competitive if you do not compare it to anything. And unfortunately, Elves simply aren't competitive as casters with this tree. Everything they can do Half-Elves can do (often better) and without the penalty to CON. Even if all you have is FTP races Human would be a much better choice, especially if the extra feat would be used for say Epic Spell Penetration (giving a +1 Spell Pen bonus over the only thing Elves do "better").

    With the enhancement pass they will be slightly better than they are now, mostly because of the +1 DC to Enchantment spells. However, that and the spell pen alone is not enough to make up for the CON penalty, especially for a class that only gets 4 hp per level. While Elves will now be viable as melee and ranged, they still won't be viable for arcanes, which is a problem because thematically Elves are supposed to make good wizards.

    I'm only making one point and I'll reiterate it here: Why do the caster-related enhancements need to be in the "core abilities"? Isn't it sufficient that they are there, in the teirs? Given that there's only room in the core abilities for a couple of enhancements, a lot of stuff needs to be in the tiers, even stuff that is "race-defining". I gave a few examples (not intended to be a complete list) of race-defining enhancements that were not in the core abilities but were instead in the tiers.
    Having damage enhancements in the tree is fine. Not all Dwarves are going specialize in axes, for example, with the new enhancement pass. In fact, on live I see a surprising number of Dwarven Wizards or Rogues simply because they like that race. While Dwarves using axes is thematic, it isn't good to pidgeon-hole them to only be good at using axes. The +CON and +HP however are very useful, and then there are four tiers of axe/pick enhancements in the tree. (Also putting the axe enhancements in the core tree would require putting it down to 3 ranks which wouldn't be good).

    The main problem is that overall Elves will be terrible for casters, and this could easily be fixed with just a few changes.

    Getting rid of the terrible Child of Nature would let Enchantment Lore be moved down to the first tier. Then you could put Traditionalist Caster in at tier 2 (same as it is for Humans), and then add in say another DC boost enhancement or perhaps something that increased the USP you get from Implements by 1 point per + on the weapon at tier 4. Those simple things would make Elves competitive: -2 CON, no bonus to casting stat, but increased dodge, spell penetration, SP, USP, and DCs to Enchantment spells.

    While Elves in this enhancement pass are getting a lot of buffs to melee (which are VERY sorely needed) they got only minor benefits to casting while other races got significantly more, pushing them even further to the bottom of the barrel here. In my opinion, Elves should be good at casting...just not in the exact same way that other races are.

    Now one thing I gather from your post is you have an opinion that the core abilities should only have stuff that is applicable to every type of toon if possible. If that's a goal (and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this goal), then putting caster-specific enhancements into the core abilities isn't really appropriate either because those would be wasted on pure melee.
    Well, first I'm not saying that every core enhancement should be useful to every character type. However, what I do want is for something useful for most character types to be in the core enhancements. I know the DEX will almost never be useful to casters, which is fine. But the other ones should have some benefit for casters.

    Second, make it something that both melee and casters would want. Something like +1% dodge or a multi-enhancement selector like Humans have for a choice between the melee/ranged and caster enhancements. So it could be something like:

    Elvish Dodge 1/2/3:

    AP Cost: 0 for 1st, 1 or 2 for 2nd/3rd

    Description: You gain +1% Dodge

    Or

    Elvish Accuracy 1/2/3:

    AP Cost: 0/1/1

    Description: Choose one:

    1. Gain +1% chance to critical with [type] spells (or just some USP).
    2. Gain +2% attack bonus (though I still would honestly prefer something a bit stronger here).

    Either way most characters will have some reason to take the Core Racial enhancements, whereas now Elven casters would be gimping themselves to take enhancements that do absolutely nothing for them (+1 Reflex save for 4 AP doesn't count).



    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    This is untrue. The class does not get dex damage, enhancement trees in that class do. In other words, picking up the dex to damage from this tree allows the players to focus on other trees instead. For example, what if you have levels of rogue just for traps? You can dip into the mechanic tree and use the bulk of your points in other trees. Also the AA tree doesn't give dex to damage...
    1. I was talking about melee, not ranged. Your point about Arcane Archers doesn't address what I was saying.
    2. A Rogue character (which I am defining as a character with significant Rogue levels that relies on Sneak Attack damage) would not care about the DEX to damage in the Elven tree, since Mechanic gets INT to crossbows, Thief-Acrobat gives DEX to quarterstaves, and Assassin gives DEX to light weapons/rapiers.
    3. You completely failed to address my point about significantly lower DCs on tactical feats.

    Theres some other neat stuff you can do. I can see a player dipping into Pally for saves, then going Rogue (mechanic for traps/umd) to 6 and Kensai up to 12 to be pretty wicked with that Falchion. Sure, no overwhelming crit, but they get plenty in exchange.
    Why would you take Mechanic up to tier 6? What in there is so valuable to you that you would give up another tree for it? You mention "Mechanic for Traps", but you don't need the +3 to Disable/OL/Repair/Trap saves or the +3 to Listen/Search/Spot to do that. The Faster Disabling is kinda nice I suppose, but I wouldn't want to give up DPS enhancements for a bit of convenience. I guess you could try for the Wand and Scroll Mastery at tier 3, though that is a pretty huge investment with the useless Wand Heightening as a pre-req.

    Instead of that though, you could just choose Assassin. -3 to some skills (which honestly isn't needed) and you could get +6d6 SA, +1d8 Venom, and a couple of +W attacks.

    Though contrary to what you say, that build would lose more than Overwhelming Critical.
    Loses from pure fighter:
    12% Doublestrike
    Significantly DC loss on Tactical feats
    To-hit (no way that I know of to give DEX to attack rolls with Falchion, though I guess that might finally be a use for Elven Accuracy)
    Vorpal to your weapons for 60s.
    Also you probably wouldn't take Power Surge with your build since it mainly helps STR-based Fighters.

    Gains from heavily splashing
    Trap skills
    UMD as a class skill
    3d6 SA (6d6 if you go with Assassin instead, though if you went TWF you would get an effective +4.8d6 SA damage from off-hand procs)
    1d8 Venom (if you go Assassin)
    Up to +75% on wands/scrolls (only if you choose Mechanic and spend for it, though the rest of the tree isn't very useful for melee characters so I guess there would be no point not to)

    Of course not to mention all of the penalties you get for choosing DEX over STR for...what, better Evasion save? Is that really worth having lower Tactical feat DCs, attack rolls, full benefit from Power Surge, Overwhelming Critical, etc? (Hint: it isn't. DEX to damage on Falchions is a trap).


    Who is to say that is to help only fighters? What about multiclasses, casters, etc?
    ...seriously? Did you even read my post?

    Did you not notice that what I said was in reply to another poster claiming to use Elven Accuracy to offset the penalties of Power Attack on a fighter.

    Anywho, you are just railing against what is given instead of opening yourself up to the possibilites it presents.
    You mean the possibility of Elves having a useless tier 4 enhancement and still being a terrible choice for casters? No, I'd say I'm pretty aware of those "possibilities". That is the entire reason I am posting here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    THF line isn't that great imho but, whatever. You can still potentially get it with 13 str (enough for PA, Cleave, and Great Cleave - which are way better btw) ad tomes. Loss of PRR... eh, I'll take evasion with high reflex saves, tyvm. You are right about power surge (maybe just 8 levels of fighter I guess, take rogue to 10 for the rogue special feat, more SA and skills) and overwhelming crit (gotta give a lil to get a lil). Also, a dex build would be far far better at stealth if a player wanted to go that route.
    1. If you wanted to go Stealth Assassin would be much better since Assassinate is so awesome for Stealthy stuff, and in that case you'd be INT-based.
    2. Starting at 13 STR and getting Overwhelming Crit? You are aware if requires over twenty base STR (starting, level-ups, and tomes), right? Even the best tome in the game couldn't get you high enough, which means you'd have to use level-up points so why the **** would you start at 13 STR???
    3. If you're going THF you really can't beat Horc right now, much as I hate saying that. The fact that Horcs get their +4/+6 to all THF weapons instead of just Falchions gives you a lot more options, both at cap and while leveling. Elf melee is more about TWF with scimitars or rapiers.

    Moreover, who is to say one can't simply approach the dex to damage on the falchion as giving archers a viable sidearm if they feel the need to melee? Manyshot isn't up all the time.


    Ok, let me try to explain this to you...

    If you are an Archer would be using Longbows over Shortbows. The Elven racial lines are grouped as Rapier/Longsword/Longbow and Scimitar/Falchion/Shortbow. This means that if you are an Elven archer you will not have DEX to damage on Falchions unless you feel like gimping the main goal of your build. So right off the bat your statement is ludicrous. Not to mention that Elven Ranged Archers get the TWF line for free, Monkchers use Ten Thousand Stars as an "extra" manyshot, Fighter Archers have enough bonus feats to pick up the TWF line, etc. I guess your statement might apply to Bowbarians though with the increased focus on casting in the AA line I don't think that would mesh well with Rage anyway. That leaves what, wizard/sorc AAs and FvS/cleric AAs? Any of those could cast spells instead of using a Falchion when Manyshot is down (switching to more caster-oriented weapons in the process).


    No matter how you try to spin it, Grace is not worth taking in the upcoming system unless you're an Archer since all of the melees who would want it already get it as part of the Core abilities of their PrE (and that one isn't restricted to 3 weapons).

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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    1. I was talking about melee, not ranged. Your point about Arcane Archers doesn't address what I was saying.
    2. A Rogue character (which I am defining as a character with significant Rogue levels that relies on Sneak Attack damage) would not care about the DEX to damage in the Elven tree, since Mechanic gets INT to crossbows, Thief-Acrobat gives DEX to quarterstaves, and Assassin gives DEX to light weapons/rapiers.
    3. You completely failed to address my point about significantly lower DCs on tactical feats.
    1. Not just talking to you. Believe it or not there are other people who post on this thread than just you.
    2. Unless they don't want to use a staff/invest in Th-A or a use one hander
    3. I know I did - maybe thats not what every build build focuses on. Not every character needs to be built around getting epic dcs that rarely land on end game content


    Why would you take Mechanic up to tier 6?
    There is no tier 6. I meant rogue level 6. Mostly for skill points, etc.

    You mention "Mechanic for Traps", but you don't need the +3 to Disable/OL/Repair/Trap saves or the +3 to Listen/Search/Spot to do that. The Faster Disabling is kinda nice I suppose, but I wouldn't want to give up DPS enhancements for a bit of convenience.
    Thats YOU. Its not all about the builds YOU want.

    I guess you could try for the Wand and Scroll Mastery at tier 3, though that is a pretty huge investment with the useless Wand Heightening as a pre-req.
    +75% effectiveness and the +3 UMD is worth it. If YOU dont think so that is pure OPINION.

    Instead of that though, you could just choose Assassin. -3 to some skills (which honestly isn't needed) and you could get +6d6 SA, +1d8 Venom, and a couple of +W attacks.
    You can do many things. We can sit around theorycrafting till we're blue in the face.

    "random ranting that goes on ad on"
    Dude, just don't spend the points on grace then. Frankly, you have a very myopic viewpoint. You seem to have a very short checklist (tactical dc's, o. crit, etc) and if a build is not PERFECT for that, then its gimp. I do not think that the best way to approach this patch is to come to the table with a bunch of predispositions. For example...

    Not to mention that Elven Ranged Archers get the TWF line for free, Monkchers use Ten Thousand Stars as an "extra" manyshot, Fighter Archers have enough bonus feats to pick up the TWF line, etc.
    That statement comes from the previous system. You can't make statements of what people tend to do with an older system and think that is relevant "proof" to what players will do in a new system. Who knows what people will tend to do when this thing hits. There are many variables and synergies introduced in this new system.

    Also, your keep complaining that the system is not good for melee but who is to say racials must be all things for all builds? So, elf enhancements favor ranged builds well, ok so what? You said yourself that Horcs favor two handers, so what? I have my heart set on Elven Cleric Arcane Archer (with a couple monk/fighter levels). Ya, a caster who is good at ranged. That SCREAMS elf to me. And, ya, I can fall back on melee weapon I have dex to dam on if I so wish. Maybe thats the intent, to serve as an effective sidearm for a ranged character.
    Last edited by Mister_Shevek; 06-22-2013 at 10:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    1. Not just talking to you. Believe it or not there are other people who post on this thread than just you.
    Backpedaling won't save you here. If you quote a person and respond to that quote, it is assumed that you are talking to that specific person, not "everyone in the thread".

    2. Unless they don't want to use a staff/invest in Th-A or a use one hander
    So now your argument is that a hypothetical Rogue player might want to avoid everything that makes a Rogue effective?

    3. I know I did - maybe thats not what every build build focuses on. Not every character needs to be built around getting epic dcs that rarely land on end game content
    Don't you mean "you and nearly all of the competent melee playing Epics"? Yeah, silly me...how could that possibly be an important going DEX-based over STR-based?


    +75% effectiveness and the +3 UMD is worth it. If YOU dont think so that is pure OPINION.
    Let's see...

    23 UMD from Heroic Ranks
    8 from Epic levels
    4 Greater Heroism (bound clickies on necklaces are easily obtained from Shavarath with a high drop rate)
    -1 8 base CHA
    3 6 CHA item
    1 2 CHA tome
    3 Golden Cartouche
    1 The Big Top
    1 Voice of the Master
    =43

    No fail Resurrection, Heal, Teleport, Hero's Feast, Adamantine Weapons, Elemental Weapons, etc, and that isn't even the best gear or tomes you could get, just what is really easily obtainable. There are better CHA items, Shroud items, +5 UMD items that stack with +3 UMD items, better tomes, and better buffs. You can easily use any important scroll in the game with that. So what exactly do you need another +3 UMD to use?

    So then your Mechanic tree is just +75% effectiveness with scrolls. Are you planning to stop DPSing in the middle of the fight to scroll heal people? If your answer is no, then you don't really need Wand and Scroll Mastery, and would be better served with the Assassin tree as I already pointed out

    Dude, just don't spend the points on grace then. Frankly, you have a very myopic viewpoint. You seem to have a very short checklist (tactical dc's, o. crit, etc) and if a build is not PERFECT for that, then its gimp. I do not think that the best way to approach this patch is to come to the table with a bunch of predispositions.
    You just don't get it, do you "dude"?

    The problem with Grace is that it is only useful for Archers, because all of the other weapons that it gives DEX to damage for are either useless with DEX as the damage stat (Falchion for so many reasons, Shortbow, Longsword in general) or are already given DEX to damage for the classes that would care about it (Scimitar - Ranger, Rapiers - Ranger, Rogue). As it is currently, the only thing Grace does for melee is be a useless AP sink that simultaneously encourages players (like you, evidently) to gimp themselves to build around it. That is my issue with this enhancement.

    As for my "short checklist"...are you honestly ***** enough to think that higher Reflex saves are worth more than 2 AP, Overwhelming Critical, higher damage, better Tactical feat DCs, and more to-hit? And are you seriously **** enough to assume that things that are important for a Fighter just might not be as important to another class?

    Oh wait, you are.

    For example...
    That statement comes from the previous system. You can't make statements of what people tend to do with an older system and think that is relevant "proof" to what players will do in a new system. Who knows what people will tend to do when this thing hits. There are many variables and synergies introduced in this new system.
    Ugh. The racial weapons are divided into sets, and Falchion and Longbow are in two mutually exclusive sets. Archers use Longbows over Shortbows because Longbows they deal more damage and there is a much better selection of named Longbows than Shortbows. That isn't a "statement [that] comes from the previous system", it is a statement that describes things not related to enhancements.

    Since this is so hard for you to understand, I'll give you a list of named Longbows and Shortbows that Archers might use.

    Shortbows:
    Scorpion Tail Shortbow (level 4)
    Collapsible Shortbow (level 10)
    Epic Collapsible Shortbow (level 20)

    Longbows:
    Cloven-jaw Longbow (level 2)
    Ghostbane Longbow (Level 6)
    Shatterbow (level 7)
    Silver Longbow (level 8)
    Thornlord (level 10)
    Bow of the Elements (Air) (level 10)
    Bow of the Elements (Ice) (level 12)
    Bow of Sinew (level 14)
    Bow of the Silver Flame (level 16)
    Epic Bow of the Elements (Air) (level 20)
    Epic Bow of the Silver Flame (level 20)
    Epic Elemental Longbow of Earth (level 20)
    Epic Thornlord (level 20)
    Pinion, Cloud-Piercer (level 23)

    But no, you're right. The only reason people use Longbows over Shortbows now is because of the enhancement system. *Eye roll*

    Oh yeah, not to mention that Rangers will still get the TWF feats for free, Fighters will still have a ton of bonus feats, Monkchers will still be built around Ten-Thousand Stars, etc.

    Also, your keep complaining that the system is not good for melee but who is to say racials must be all things for all builds? So, elf enhancements favor ranged builds well, ok so what?
    Where have I ever said that with the enhancement pass Elves will not be good for melee? What I've said, because you're obviously too dense to understand something unless it is right in from of you with bold letters is that the enhancement Grace is not useful to melee characters at all, and should be improved so that it is.



    The rest of your post is pointless.
    Last edited by AylinIsAwesome; 06-22-2013 at 01:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    Backpedaling won't save you here. If you quote a person and respond to that quote, it is assumed that you are talking to that specific person, not "everyone in the thread".
    I wasn't quoting you before your last hissy fit. I was responding to mezzorco. Please get off your high horse, scroll up, look at the post I quoted and dig that foot out of your mouth.

    I think I'm done speaking with you. You do little but fling insults and rail against design decisions using ZERO logic just the declaration that something SHOULD be that way because you feel it should be thus. Why should the Grace enhancement be better for melee? Because you feel it should? Thats preposterous! Its fine as it is. Would you build an entire melee build around it? Maybe or maybe not but it has its uses. You have yet to come up with any viable reason why it SHOULD be buffed other than your OPINION it SHOULD. Melee elves can still pick up skill, lots of +hit/dam and simple ignore grace if they want to, I guess. Its their CHOICE. The notion that every enhancement must be some kind of ridiculous buff for melee is foolish.

    [sarcasm]Hey, lets look at those Half Orc enhancements. Only good for 2 handed Melee! ***? All tier 5 enhancements should be useful for any all builds according to Aylin! Devs, I demand that Orcish Weapon training apply to melee AND ranged weapons and give spell penetration when using a staff plus give positive healing crit and augment all summons![/sarcasm]

    AGAIN, WHY EXACTLY MUST GRACE BE SOME MASSIVE MELEE BUFF? Look at drow, they get, what +hit/dam and thats it. Dwarves get +hit/dam and con to dmg (very similar mirror to Elven line). Right now, the Elvish Weapon Training line is AWESOME as it helps both melee and ranged characters using a variety of weapon types. Unlike Drow which get shortswords and shuriken, Elves get a buffet of weapon choices to choose from. Moreover, if they get grace and elven arcane archer, they can be effective archers without having to be rangers. AND YOU WANT MORE? ***? The elf lines gives alot of OPTIONS for melee, ranged and casting characters alike. You do not HAVE to go to the end of the Elf line if you do not wish to. An elven melee character can CHOOSE to spend enhancement points in class enhancement lines. A ranged elven character may choose to invest more. A caster elf may just go up to arcanum for the spell penetration, etc.

    I doubt the devs will waste much time listening to the suggestions of posters like yourself who seem more interesting in looking at their own text than engaging in any sort of meaningful dialogue. Honestly, why don't you just write notes to yourself if you don't give a damn about anyone else's points of view?
    Last edited by Mister_Shevek; 06-22-2013 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    I wasn't quoting you before your last hissy fit. I was responding to mezzorco. Please get off your high horse, scroll up, look at the post I quoted and dig that foot out of your mouth.
    Except the post you quoted was mine and the only one throwing a "hissy fit" here is you.

    I think I'm done speaking with you.
    That would be nice considering that 100% of your posts are quoting me and I would love it if you would stop deliberately misrepresenting things I've said in an effort to spread lies.

    You do little but fling insults and rail against design decisions using ZERO logic just the declaration that something SHOULD be that way because you feel it should be thus. Why should the Grace enhancement be better for melee? Because you feel it should? Thats preposterous! Its fine as it is.
    Why should Grace give a benefit to Elven melee and not just be a trap designed to waste their AP and gimp them? Well if the Devs hadn't intended it to be used for melee then it would only apply to Longbows and Shortbows. Combine that with the fact that Grace is in the highest tier for Elves means that it should be worth spending AP on. It already has that for ranged characters, but not for melee. No matter how oblivious you are to reality that is not "fine". They should either remove the melee weapons from it entirely so it doesn't convince people to build around a worthless enhancement for melee or they should increase the benefit it gives to melee. Of course, removing the bonus to melee makes no sense since Elves are already severely behind other races in that area (remember that CON penalty I mentioned before?) leaving one option: give a boost to Grace so that melee Elves can make use of it. I already gave one possible fix earlier: it would give you +2 damage for that particular weapon if you already used DEX for damage OR if your STR was higher than your DEX.

    Would you build an entire melee build around it? Maybe or maybe not but it has its uses. You have yet to come up with any viable reason why it SHOULD be buffed other than your OPINION it SHOULD. Melee elves can still pick up skill, lots of +hit/dam and simple ignore grace if they want to, I guess. Its their CHOICE. The notion that every enhancement must be some kind of ridiculous buff for melee is foolish.
    You mention choice, but a "choice" between wasting AP on useless junk and not doing that isn't exactly a choice, is it?

    I doubt the devs will waste much time listening to the suggestions of posters like yourself who seem more interesting in looking at their own text than engaging in any sort of meaningful dialogue. Honestly, why don't you just write notes to yourself if you don't give a damn about anyone else's points of view?
    I care about other people's points of view. Perhaps you're trying to ascribe your own failings to me?

    The fact is this thread is here for the devs to get feedback on the Elven enhancements. Your claim that "everything is fine because a character that would be severely gimped could be built to use it" coupled with your shameless dishonesty hampers the entire purpose of the thread.


    EDIT: You seem to have thrown even more crazy into your post.

    [sarcasm]Hey, lets look at those Half Orc enhancements. Only good for 2 handed Melee! ***? All tier 5 enhancements should be useful for any all builds according to Aylin! Devs, I demand that Orcish Weapon training apply to melee AND ranged weapons and give spell penetration when using a staff plus give positive healing crit and augment all summons![/sarcasm]
    I've never said anything like this. Why do you insist on making yourself look even more foolish?

    AGAIN, WHY EXACTLY MUST GRACE BE SOME MASSIVE MELEE BUFF?
    Who said anything about a "massive" melee buff? I'm asking for some small benefit.

    Look at drow, they get, what +hit/dam and thats it.
    And +1d8 Venom.

    Dwarves get +hit/dam and con to dmg (very similar mirror to Elven line).
    And Dwarven Armour Mastery
    And Dwarven Tactics
    And Child of the Mountain
    And Stand Like Stone
    And Dwarven Shield Mastery (S&B tanks only)
    And Dwarf Fortress (S&B only)

    Oh yeah, plus a lot of Dwarf players also think that Throw Your Weight Around is a trap.

    Right now, the Elvish Weapon Training line is AWESOME as it helps both melee and ranged characters using a variety of weapon types. Unlike Drow which get shortswords and shuriken, Elves get a buffet of weapon choices to choose from.
    The only weapons worth getting the Elven weapon lines are for Longbows, Rapiers, and Scimitars. The Longbow is only really useful to archers though, so really for a melee your choice is between slashing or piercing. With Drow melee there are some really nice Shortswords (Celestia for one) that you can also get bonuses to at the same time as your Rapiers.

    Moreover, if they get grace and elven arcane archer, they can be effective archers without having to be rangers.
    LOL, the most effective archers aren't Rangers at all right now.

    AND YOU WANT MORE? ***? The elf lines gives alot of OPTIONS for melee, ranged and casting characters alike.
    Not really for casting characters as I've already explained many times. For Ranged and Melee the enhancements are the same except for one at the end which I'm saying should get a slight buff to melee. Jeez, it sounds like you would hate it for Elves to be buffed, even a little. I wonder why that is...
    Last edited by AylinIsAwesome; 06-22-2013 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    Except the post you quoted was mine and the only one throwing a "hissy fit"

    That would be nice considering that 100% of your posts are quoting me and I would love it if you would stop deliberately misrepresenting things I've said in an effort to spread lies.

    06-21-2013, 09:38 PM --> I was quoting mezz. Scroll up. Read.

    Why should Grace give a benefit to Elven melee and not just be a trap designed to waste their AP and gimp them? Well if the Devs hadn't intended it to be used for melee then it would only apply to Longbows and Shortbows. Combine that with the fact that Grace is in the highest tier for Elves means that it should be worth spending AP on.
    That is a fallacy. Just because it is the highest tier does NOT mean it should be a good fit for all archetypes. I would not get "throw your weight around" from the dwarf line if not a tank. I would not get the highest Half Orc line if using ranged. Some races are naturally better at certain things. This is very much in line with how DnD has always been.

    It already has that for ranged characters, but not for melee. No matter how oblivious you are to reality that is not "fine". They should either remove the melee weapons from it entirely so it doesn't convince people to build around a worthless enhancement for melee or they should increase the benefit it gives to melee.
    So, should the dwarf line remove the benefits to throwing weapons? Should the drow line lose the benefits to shurikens? Perhaps the added bonuses are meant for situational sidearms or some specialized builds (that we havent figured out yet) and not for everyone.

    Of course, removing the bonus to melee makes no sense since Elves are already severely behind other races in that area (remember that CON penalty I mentioned before?) leaving one option: give a boost to Grace so that melee Elves can make use of it. I already gave one possible fix earlier: it would give you +2 damage for that particular weapon if you already used DEX for damage OR if your STR was higher than your DEX.
    Or a melee elf can simple not invest up to tier 5 i the elf tree and heavily invest in more class melee trees or make hybridized melee/ranged characters or something else. That fix of yours is silly. Every enhancement should not be made with multiple functions to work around all assorted possible builds. That would be clunky and confusing.

    You mention choice, but a "choice" between wasting AP on useless junk and not doing that isn't exactly a choice, is it?
    Nope, the choice is in either using said enhancements or not. They are only "useless junk" you use them in builds where they don't. If you want to make a beefy elf with crazy strength getting an enhancement meant to help mostly ranged elves who want to melee at times may not be a good idea. Similarly, if you want to be a ranged dwarf, maxxing out the axe line may not be the best way to go.

    I care about other people's points of view. Perhaps you're trying to ascribe your own failings to me?
    I am not the one that started flinging insults, bud.

    The fact is this thread is here for the devs to get feedback on the Elven enhancements. Your claim that "everything is fine because a character that would be severely gimped could be built to use it" coupled with your shameless dishonesty hampers the entire purpose of the thread.
    Man, get over yourself.
    Last edited by Mister_Shevek; 06-22-2013 at 03:05 PM.

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    I thought you were done responding to me? I guess that was another lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    06-21-2013, 09:38 PM --> I was quoting mezz. Scroll up. Read.
    I have read it. You, evidently, have not. You have exactly one post in the entire forum that isn't responding to me, and here it is:

    THF line isn't that great imho but, whatever. You can still potentially get it with 13 str (enough for PA, Cleave, and Great Cleave - which are way better btw) ad tomes. Loss of PRR... eh, I'll take evasion with high reflex saves, tyvm. You are right about power surge (maybe just 8 levels of fighter I guess, take rogue to 10 for the rogue special feat, more SA and skills) and overwhelming crit (gotta give a lil to get a lil). Also, a dex build would be far far better at stealth if a player wanted to go that route.

    Moreover, who is to say one can't simply approach the dex to damage on the falchion as giving archers a viable sidearm if they feel the need to melee? Manyshot isn't up all the time.
    Notice how that post wasn't the one you're now claiming "wasn't a response from me"? Or how the actual post (the one you posted right before that one) was made before Mezzorco even posted in this thread? Though I did notice you deleted my name out of the quote. /fail

    That is a fallacy. Just because it is the highest tier does NOT mean it should be a good fit for all archetypes.
    I never said "just because" it is tier 4. I said because it is tier 4 and because it is obviously supposed to benefit melee characters as well as ranged.

    So, should the dwarf line remove the benefits to throwing weapons? Should the drow line lose the benefits to shurikens? Perhaps the added bonuses are meant for situational sidearms or some specialized builds (that we havent figured out yet) and not for everyone.
    *Sigh.*

    The reason Drow have bonuses to Shuriken and Dwarves get bonuses to all axes (including throwing ones) is a thematic reason.

    Or a melee elf can simple not invest up to tier 5
    Racial trees only have four tiers.

    That fix of yours is silly. Every enhancement should not be made with multiple functions to work around all assorted possible builds. That would be clunky and confusing.
    So enhancements that can do multiple things are "clunky and confusing"? Seeing as how 22% of Dwarf is multi-enhancement selectors, 10% of Drow is, 4% of Horc is, 18% of Warforged is, 68% of Human is, and 55% of Helf is, I don't think the devs agree with you.

    Nope, the choice is in either using said enhancements or not. They are only "useless junk" you use them in builds where they don't. If you want to make a beefy elf with crazy strength getting an enhancement meant to help mostly ranged elves who want to melee at times may not be a good idea. Similarly, if you want to be a ranged dwarf, maxxing out the axe line may not be the best way to go.
    Red herring much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    I thought you were done responding to me? I guess that was another lie.
    Can't help myself. Seeing you drone on is a guilty pleasure. Like watching Attack of the Killer Tomatoes or Killer Clowns from Outer Space.

    Notice how that post wasn't the one you're now claiming "wasn't a response from me"? Or how the actual post (the one you posted right before that one) was made before Mezzorco even posted in this thread? Though I did notice you deleted my name out of the quote. /fail
    I dunno what you are talking about. You are too busy tripping over your own ego to focus on what is being said.

    I never said "just because" it is tier 4. I said because it is tier 4 and because it is obviously supposed to benefit melee characters as well as ranged.
    *Sigh.*

    The reason Drow have bonuses to Shuriken and Dwarves get bonuses to all axes (including throwing ones) is a thematic reason.
    In both quotes, you claim to totally understand the core design philosophy of the devs. How do you know that the bonuses to thrown weapons is for flavor. How exactly is shurikens to drow flavor? I didn't know they were all Shinobi Ninjas. How do you know this? I cant picture Drizzt and Jarlaxle throwing ninja stars but whatever. Can there be, perhaps, more to it than that or have you sat with the design lead and got him to tell you exactly why these enhancements are included? It makes more sense for those bonuses to be about giving players viable sidearms (that have some basis in DnD lore) for certain situations and for some niche builds (as with Grace most likely).

    Racial trees only have four tiers.
    Bully for you. You get a gold star for nit-picking.


    So enhancements that can do multiple things are "clunky and confusing"? Seeing as how 22% of Dwarf is multi-enhancement selectors, 10% of Drow is, 4% of Horc is, 18% of Warforged is, 68% of Human is, and 55% of Helf is, I don't think the devs agree with you.
    Those selectors are for different bonuses. So, choose hammer or axe. Choose skill boost or damage boost, etc etc. Your suggest is clunky. It wouldnt be a selector. By your own words you would have Grace "give you +2 damage for that particular weapon if you already used DEX for damage OR if your STR was higher than your DEX." That is the most confusing bit of gibberish of an enhancement I have seen. So, should all enhancements totally change based on player stats or other enhancement selections? What a freaking headache! Listen: elves are dexterous. Grace rewards those that live up to that archetype. If your build does not live up to that archetype, then do not take Grace. Similar, a player that is making a Dwarf probably shouldnt take throw your weight around if he doesn't dump all his points into con.

    Red herring much?
    Deflecting much?
    Last edited by Mister_Shevek; 06-22-2013 at 05:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Shevek View Post
    In both quotes, you claim to totally understand the core design philosophy of the devs. How do you know that the bonuses to thrown weapons is for flavor.
    The racial weapon training lines are for the weapons that are thematic to the races with one exception:

    How exactly is shurikens to drow flavor? I didn't know they were all Shinobi Ninjas. How do you know this? I cant picture Drizzt and Jarlaxle throwing ninja stars but whatever. Can there be, perhaps, more to it than that or have you sat with the design lead and got him to tell you exactly why these enhancements are included?
    So you know how in the Tabletop version Drow get proficiency with Hand Crossbows, but those don't exist in DDO? Long before Monks were added to the game, Drow were given Shuriken proficiency instead to replace the non-existent Hand Crossbows. The devs indicated this, though I'm not sure if the posts still exists due the move to a new server for the forums.

    It makes more sense for those bonuses to be about giving players viable sidearms (that have some basis in DnD lore) for certain situations and for some niche builds (as with Grace most likely).
    Have any evidence for this, besides your opinion and incredulity?

    Those selectors are for different bonuses. So, choose hammer or axe. Choose skill boost or damage boost, etc etc. Your suggest is clunky. It wouldnt be a selector. By your own words you would have Grace "give you +2 damage for that particular weapon if you already used DEX for damage OR if your STR was higher than your DEX." That is the most confusing bit of gibberish of an enhancement I have seen. So, should all enhancements totally change based on player stats or other enhancement selections? What a freaking headache! Listen: elves are dexterous. Grace rewards those that live up to that archetype. If your build does not live up to that archetype, then do not take Grace.
    And you don't think that Grace could be done as a multi-enhancement selector?
    Grace: Choose 1
    You gain DEX to damage with [weapon set] OR you gain +2 damage with [weapon set].

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