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  1. #1
    Lamannia Coordinator SqueakofDoom's Avatar
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    Default The Official Human Enhancements Discussion Thread!

    We are currently previewing Racial Enhancements on Lamannia.

    Please use this thread to share your thoughts on the Human Enhancement Tree!
    Last edited by SqueakofDoom; 07-03-2013 at 06:19 AM.

  2. #2

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    Looks good, though I must say...Greater Heroism...AWESOME!
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  3. #3
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    I have noticed you need to have taken human versatiliy to be able to take human adaptability? I hope this is a mistake

    My pally does not like to waste points in verstality but likes to take adaptability once for an extra point of str. The only requirement is "HUMAN".

    Why would you change this now makes no sense?

    It should be requirement for human adaptability: "being human" ... and then requirements for greater human adaptability: being human and two AP spent in human adaptability.

    Human versatility should not be linked to this at all.

    I am looking at the human tree on my pally right now and my build is already broken even though the pally enhancement pass isn't out yet. I use 3 human racials:

    Human Improved Recovery I
    Racial Toughness I
    Human Adaptability Strength I

    All the rest are needed pally enhancements. I hope this will be corrected.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 04-11-2013 at 02:07 PM.
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  4. #4
    Founder & Hero Jastron's Avatar
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    Default Human tree first thoughts

    The Human Fighting Style has some bugs. The Sniper option, all three tiers show in the initial selection dialogue, and you can't upgrade it past tier 1 if you select it. Ambidexterity even when upgraded to Tier 3, is giving only one tier of benefit and shows as 1/1. That's what I've found so far in the human racial tree. Bugs are expected so no big deal.

    However, I don't think increasing the cost of the healing amp enhancements is a wise idea. The more folks having more healing amp, the better for the game as a whole. Perhaps move the top two options each down one level. Needing 22 points out of 80 just in the racial tree, just for the full healing amp seems costly compared to live.

    I also think the requirements in AP spend for each tier in the Racial tree are too steep. Perhaps they should be 4 instead of 5, I get the feeling we will run out of AP's in the new system, that's just a general comment though.

    Just some quick, first thoughts!
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  5. #5
    Community Member ThePrisoner's Avatar
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    Default toughness enhancements

    It looks like humans, along with a lot of other races are lacking racial toughness enhancement options. A lot of characters are going to take a hit on hitpoints if they aren't added. I'm guessing this would be an unpopular change.

  6. #6
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    For those who don't have a Llama client up. Note that you don't automatically get the Core Abilities enhancements. You have to pay for them after the first level.

    Core Abilities row:
    Human Versatility (Pick one of the current Human Adaptability options - not all)
    Human Adaptability (+1 to a stat of your choice)
    Human Versatility (Pick a second choice from the current list of Human Adaptability options that is different from your first choice)
    Human Greater Adaptability (Pick a second choice from the list of 6 stats that is different from your first choice)
    Human Versatility (Pick a third choice from...)

    Tier 1:
    Dragonmark Focus (additional uses and bonus to the related skill for whichever Human Dragonmark you have)
    Skill Focus (Pick from categories that group related skills for a +1 bonus per level - up to +3 on that stat)
    Action Surge (+1 to one ability score of your choice when an action boost is active)
    Improved Recovery (+10% healing amp)
    Don't Count Me Out (3 levels - Range of unconsciousness extended by 5/10/20 HP , +3/6/10 PRR while under 50% HP)

    Tier 2:
    Lesser Dragonmarks (don't know - my character doesn't have dragonmarks)
    Skill Focus (just like tier 1, but choose a different group)
    Action Surge (just like tier 1, but choose a different stat)
    Fighting Style (different groups of fighting ability bonuses)

    Tier 3:
    Greater Dragonmarks (don't know - my character doesn't have dragonmarks)
    Skill Mastery (+1 to all skills)
    Action Surge (just like tier 1 and 2, but choose a third stat)
    Improved Recovery (10% more healing amp)
    Heroism (Cast Heroism on yourself or an ally. Get more casts per rest from abilities that grant more Action Boosts)

    Tier 4:
    Action Surge (just like tiers 1, 2 and 3 but choose a fourth stat)
    Improved Recovery (10% more healing amp)
    Greater Heroism (Cast Greater Heroism on yourself or an ally. Get more casts per rest from abilities that grant more Action Boosts)


    Without the Dragonmarks, I was able to spend 57 AP in this tree.
    Last edited by HungarianRhapsody; 04-11-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    I have noticed you need to have taken human versatiliy to be able to take human adaptability? I hope this is a mistake

    My pally does not like to waste points in verstality but likes to take adaptability once for an extra point of str. The only requirement is "HUMAN".

    Why would you change this now makes no sense?

    It should be requirement for human adaptability: "being human" ... and then requirements for greater human adaptability: being human and two AP spent in human adaptability.

    Human versatility should not be linked to this at all.

    I am looking at the human tree on my pally right now and my build is already broken even though the pally enhancement pass isn't out yet. I use 3 human racials:

    Human Improved Recovery I
    Racial Toughness I
    Human Adaptability Strength I

    All the rest are needed pally enhancements. I hope this will be corrected.
    most likely wont need human adapt on a paladin, more then likely the paladin will be able to select 2 str increases in either of the paladin trees (and if so be able to select them from both for a total of +4).

    atleast that is how it is for my arti, she can select 4 intell increasing spots, 2 from each tree. so I dont even need to dip into the human line, althought that greater heroism does seem like it'd be nice XD. splitting 22 pts into human tree is too high of a cost for it tho.

  8. #8

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    Details on the human enhancement tree. This is a human FvS that I happened to already have on Lamma, so there are no class enhancements to look at right now.

    Here's a screenshot of the trainer window...obviously there's a bug in place where the windows on the class enhancement side doesn't have a background.



    Any information missing from my descriptions is missing from the game descriptions, so if you want to know something that isn't here, don't ask me...IT'S NOT THERE!

    Bottom row abilities, left to right:

    1 - Human Versatility: Humans can select racial action boosts that share a number of uses per rest, but are not linked with class based action boost cooldowns.
    - You get to pick one versatility option at each tier, and cannot take a previous one. Options are:
    - Attack Boost - +6 to hit for 20 seconds.
    - Damage Boost - +20% damage for 20 seconds.
    - Defense Boost - +10 AC and PRR for 20 seconds.
    - Saves Boost - +4 to saves for 20 seconds. Do not auto-fail saves on a 1.
    - Skills Boost - +4 All skills.
    - Spell Power Boost - +20 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds.

    2 - Human Adaptability: Select +1 to an ability score of your choice.

    3 - Human Versatility: Humans can select racial action boosts that share a number of uses per rest, but are not linked with class based action boost cooldowns.

    4 - Human Greater Adaptability: Select +1 to a second abiity score of your choice. (You may not select the same ability score as Human Adaptability.)

    5 - Human Versatility: Humans can select racial action boosts that share a number of uses per rest, but are not linked with class based action boost cooldowns.


    Selectable abilities, all from left to right:

    TIER 1
    Multiple Enhancement Selector: Dragonmark Focus - 3 tier ability.
    Grants an additional use of dragonmarks and a bonus to the associated skill.

    Multiple Enhancement Selector: Skill Focus. 3 Tier ability.
    Humans are versatile and can excel at virtually any skill.
    - There are 7 different options under the selector, with skills grouped by type.
    - Balance, Jump, Swim, Tumble
    - Listen, Search, Spot
    - Concentration, Intimidate
    - Bluff, Diplomacy, Haggle, Perform
    - Disable Device, Open Lock
    - Heal, Repair
    - Hide, Move Silently

    Multiple Enhancement Selector: Action Surge. 3 tier ability.
    Action boosts also increase an ability score of your choice.

    Improved Recovery - 1 tier. AP Cost: 2
    Your positive healing aimplification is increased by 10%

    Don't Count Me Out - 3 tier ability
    Your range of unconciousness extends by 5 hitpoints, and you gain a +3 bonus to PRR while you are under 50% health.
    tier 2- 10 hp, 6 PRR
    tier 3- 20 hp, 10 PRR

    TIER 2

    Multiple Enhancement Selector - Lesser Dragonmarks - 1 tier.
    Humans have access to the Dragonmarks of Finding, Making, Passage, and Sentinel.

    Multiple Enhancement Selector - Skill Focus - 3 tiers
    Humans are versatile and can excel at virtually any skill.

    Multiple Enhancement Selector - Action Surge - 3 tiers
    Action boosts also increase an ability score of your choice.

    Multiple Enhancement Selector - Fighting Style - 3 tiers
    Humans are adept at many different fighting styles.
    - Style 1: Ambidexterity - +1 to hit while dual wielding or unarmed
    - Style 2: Dwarven (!) Shield Mastery - +5% AC and Max Dex from tower shields
    - Style 3: Great Weapon Aptitude (Requires: THF feat), +2% chance of glancing blows producing magical effects
    - Style 4: Sniper (requires: Point blank shot), +1d6 ranged sneak attack damage
    - Style 5: Sniper (Requires: Sniper), +1d6 Ranged Sneak attack damage. PBS and sneak attack range is extended by 2 meters
    - Style 6: Sniper (Requires: Sniper), +2d6 ranged sneak attack. PBS and Sneak Attack ranged extended by 2 meters.
    - Style 7: Traditionalist Caster (Requires: Magical Training feat): +3 universal spell power when using an Orb or Staff.

    Note: The Sniper abilities do NOT have 3 tiers each, I'm pretty sure that because the bonuses are different between tiers, the display is odd. All the other abilities have 3 tiers.
    TIER 3

    Multiple Enhancement Selector - Greater Dragonmarks - 1 tier
    Humans have access to the Dragonmarks of Finding, Making, Passage, and Sentinel.

    Skill Mastery - 1 tier. Requires: Skill Focus (Rank 1), 10 points spent in tree. AP Cost: 2
    +1 to all skills.

    Multiple Enhancement Selector - Action Surge - 3 tiers
    Action boosts also increase an ability score of your choice.

    Improved Recovery - 1 tier. Requires: Improved Recovery, Human Improved Recovery (Rank 1), 10 points spent in tree. AP Cost: 2
    Your Positive healing amplification is increased by 10%

    Heroism - 1 tier. Requires 10 points spent in tree. AP Cost: 2
    Heroism.
    Metamagic: Extend, Quicken, Enlarge. SR: No. Cooldown: 3 seconds.
    SLA: Cast the Heroism spell (imbues a single ally with great bravery and morale in battle, gaining +2 morale bonus on attacks, saves, and skill checks). Effects that grant extra action boost uses give you additional uses per rest of this ability.

    TIER 4

    Multiple Enhancement Selector -3 tiers
    Action boosts also increase an ability score of your choice.

    Improved Recovery - 1 tier.
    Requires: Improved Recovery, Human Improved Recovery (Rank 1), 20 points in tree. AP Cost: 2
    Your positive healing aimplification is increased by 10%

    Greater Heroism - 1 tier.
    Requires: Heroism (Rank 1), 20 points spent in tree. AP Cost: 2
    Greater Heroism. Metamagics: Extend, Quicken, Enlarge. SR: No. Cooldown: 3 seconds.
    SLA - Cast the greater heroism spell [snip description of GH]. This ability shares a common pool of uses per rest with the Heroism ability. Effects that grant extra action boost uses give you additional uses per rest of this ability.
    NOTE: This character does not have any action boosts, but was given 5/rest uses of GH when I took it.

    Important: The action boost surges CANNOT HAVE THE SAME ABILITY SCORE SELECTED. You can get +3 to 4 different scores, but not +12 to one score.

    The same applies to the skill masteries. Any group you take at one tier is unavailable in the other tiers.

    I took all the skill masteries including the top one and the heal/repair bracket. Starting healing spellpower: 33. After selecting: 37. Which is one less than you should be seeing. Should be +3 from the heal tier, +1 to heal for the universal tier, and +1 to spellcraft from the universal tier.
    Last edited by Matuse; 04-11-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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  9. #9
    Developer Eladrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePrisoner View Post
    It looks like humans, along with a lot of other races are lacking racial toughness enhancement options. A lot of characters are going to take a hit on hitpoints if they aren't added. I'm guessing this would be an unpopular change.
    They're more or less free now:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that Toughness was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

    Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability (a feat that all characters start with at level 1), and characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. (That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.)
    My pally does not like to waste points in verstality but likes to take adaptability once for an extra point of str. The only requirement is "HUMAN".
    In the live system, Adaptability + Greater Adaptability cost 6 AP. In the new system, they cost 4 AP, +2 AP for the two Versatilities. It's not costing you more than before.

  10. #10
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    When can we expect another update to Lamma-Land ?


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  11. #11
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    They're more or less free now:



    In the live system, Adaptability + Greater Adaptability cost 6 AP. In the new system, they cost 4 AP, +2 AP for the two Versatilities. It's not costing you more than before.
    +25 HP != Racial + Class Toughness Enhancements of the current system.

    Also the new system shifts the comparative HP advantage to pure class builds (even if elven wizards). That is a fairly noticeable change. I can understand the desire to reduce the need for the toughness feat, but this is a poor way to do this. There should be no advantage to being a pure class character when it comes to hit points. The advantage on hit points should derive from the class and race combinations just like it does now.
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  12. #12
    Community Member BladeZero's Avatar
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    Judging by Eladrin's reply, the +20 HP gained from class levels would be in addition to the HP gained from the Toughness feat. So, if you still choose to take Toughness, you'd only be losing 10 HP from Toughness III Enhancement if you race even had tier 3 available. All they've done is devalue the toughness feat in an attempt to make it so people might consider builds that don't include it.

    As for the class level difference, the maximum HP difference between two level 20 characters would be 10 HP and that's if they keep it tied to class level instead of character. Since Eladrin's quote specifically says "at this time", it obviously is up for discussion.
    Last edited by BladeZero; 04-11-2013 at 04:05 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    So ill start from botton row. If sth is decent as it is - Im not commenting it.
    Im really glad someone thought about spell power boost. BUT - I think 3 boosts is sth no one will need. Expecially considering theres no speed boost or haste boost. Melees will eventually take dmg boost. Caster spell power boost. But thats it. Maybe tanks ac/ppr boost. But I dont think anyone would want to actually take 3 boosts.
    So for me - not worth taking. Max 1. Eventually 2. Last one should be replaced with something more usefull. Even if its +2 to all skills (passive).


    Tier 1:
    Looks decent. I think Im a little dissapointed that theres no UMD skill to choose. And that u went with humans into boosts direction. A little too much in this direction. But most if pretty usefull.

    Tier 2:
    Fighting Style - I think spellpower should be 5 per 1 AP. 3 seems too little.
    Dragonmark - I dont like that Knock have to have charisma DC. It should be choosen by player ability. Any ability.

    Tier 3:
    Heroism is just meeeh... Not rlly usefull as u can just drink pots.
    Dragonmark - I just dont see any giving any really usefull effect. I doubt anyone will take them. It would be good to make them better.

    Tier 4:
    Greater Heroism ... maybe someone will use it but... we have clickies. we have casters. most of us now with epic lvls can get enought umd to cast them. So I dont really see any use for it.




    Besides those above - it looks pretty good but... honestly the only thing Id consider worth taking is heal amp. Other are good but not like :wow, I want it:. Its just giving something thats not completely trashy...
    Boosts are not for me I guess. But we will see...
    Id add sth like:
    :You can choose between: +1 DC to all spells or +1hit/dmg and critical threat with any weapon:
    Would be great for a high tier.

    Also heal amo line is waaaaay to costy. Lower it.
    Last edited by Kayla93; 04-11-2013 at 06:05 PM.

  14. #14
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    Did I miss this . . . or is HV damage boost gone?
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  15. #15

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    Dragonmark - I just dont see any giving any really usefull effect. I doubt anyone will take them. It would be good to make them better.
    I made a new character and took the least dragonmark of passage.

    The enhancement dragonmarks replace the lesser/greater feats. When I took the lesser dragonmark enhancement, I got D-Door. So feat starved classes can have their full dragonmark line for AP instead.

    Did I miss this . . . or is HV damage boost gone?
    Hi!

    1 - Human Versatility: Humans can select racial action boosts that share a number of uses per rest, but are not linked with class based action boost cooldowns.
    - You get to pick one versatility option at each tier, and cannot take a previous one. Options are:
    - Attack Boost - +6 to hit for 20 seconds.
    - Damage Boost - +20% damage for 20 seconds.
    - Defense Boost - +10 AC and PRR for 20 seconds.
    - Saves Boost - +4 to saves for 20 seconds. Do not auto-fail saves on a 1.
    - Skills Boost - +4 All skills.
    - Spell Power Boost - +20 Universal Spell Power for 20 seconds.
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  16. #16
    Hero LordPiglet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BladeZero View Post
    Judging by Eladrin's reply, the +20 HP gained from class levels would be in addition to the HP gained from the Toughness feat. So, if you still choose to take Toughness, you'd only be losing 10 HP from Toughness III Enhancement if you race even had tier 3 available. All they've done is devalue the toughness feat in an attempt to make it so people might consider builds that don't include it.

    As for the class level difference, the maximum HP difference between two level 20 characters would be 10 HP and that's if they keep it tied to class level instead of character. Since Eladrin's quote specifically says "at this time", it obviously is up for discussion.
    Actually it's more then that. A human fighter would lose their class toughness also, which is another 40 hp.

    Personally on my main, I'm losing 3 tiers of racial, 2 tiers of class and getting back 20, so that's a 30 hp difference.
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  17. #17
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    *snip*

    In the live system, Adaptability + Greater Adaptability cost 6 AP. In the new system, they cost 4 AP, +2 AP for the two Versatilities. It's not costing you more than before.
    I see what you mean but what I meant by wasting AP was I will lose AP I would rather spend elsewhere just to be able to take human adaptability where as before there was no requirement for it other than being human.

    I don't think versatility should be tied to adaptability. As it is now I may just skip adaptability all together dunno will have to see the pally enhancements first to have a better idea.

    Still I don't think they should tie versatility and adaptability together.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that Toughness was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

    Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability (a feat that all characters start with at level 1), and characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. (That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.)
    AH I was wondering about racial toughness, what exaclty is meant by MOST toughness feats?
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 04-11-2013 at 05:49 PM.
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  18. #18

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    Human Improved Recovery appears to have been unbalanced. Currently on live:

    2 AP: Improved Recovery I (2 AP total)
    4 AP: Improved Recovery II (6 AP total)
    6 AP: Improved Recovery III (12 AP total)

    For 12 AP you get the full line. On Lammania, it works as:

    2 AP: Improved Recovery I (2 AP total)
    2 AP: Improved Recovery II (12 AP total when counting the 10 AP required to take II)
    2 AP: Improved Recovery III (22 AP total when counting the 20 AP required to take III)

    Now to get the full line you'll need to spend 22 AP, which is almost double what the already very expensive line costs on live. This can be elegantly corrected by moving the recovery tiers from 1,3,4 to 1,2,3:

    2 AP: Improved Recovery I (2 AP total)
    2 AP: Improved Recovery II (7 AP total when counting the 5 AP required to take II)
    2 AP: Improved Recovery III (12 AP total when counting the 10 AP required to take III)

    These totals would match live almost perfectly.

  19. #19
    Community Member BladeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordPiglet View Post
    Actually it's more then that. A human fighter would lose their class toughness also, which is another 40 hp.

    Personally on my main, I'm losing 3 tiers of racial, 2 tiers of class and getting back 20, so that's a 30 hp difference.
    That would be true if any of this discussion was regarding class enhancements and if Turbine removed toughness enhancements from Fighters. However, a quick look at The Official Fighter Enhancements Discussion Thread shows that they still have a toughness enhancement. In fact, it may not be tied to the Toughness feat anymore, further making the point that the toughness feat is being devalued.

    Now, you can argue about the placement of the toughness enhancement in Stalwart Defender and the requirement to spend AP in that tree to boost it, but that is a comment for the aforementioned fighter thread, not the human thread.

  20. #20

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    For 12 AP you get the full line. On Lammania, it works as:

    2 AP: Improved Recovery I (2 AP total)
    2 AP: Improved Recovery II (12 AP total when counting the 10 AP required to take II)
    2 AP: Improved Recovery III (22 AP total when counting the 20 AP required to take III)
    It's not so bad. Several of those abilities are ones that everyone will have a desire to take.

    Versatility I - Everyone can find a use for this. It's impossible to make a build that can't.
    Adaptability I - +1 to my choice of attribute? Sold!
    Recovery I - What we came here for.

    That's 6 points.

    You got an action boost from Versatility, so may as well bump it with Action Surge for your favorite attribute. Now we've spent 12 AP.

    Recovery II brings us up to 14, and then it gets a little more muddled.

    Depending on build, you could go with a couple ranks of Action Surge for a secondary attribute (Con, probably), or perhaps the fighting style. You only need to find 3 things to invest in to open up Recovery III.
    Last edited by Matuse; 04-11-2013 at 06:08 PM.
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