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  1. #21
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    [Eaten by the Cube]
    You may not like what Brickwall is saying, but you can't deny it is true. There is no real need for good DPS until you start talking about raiding and EH/EE quests, and even there its debatable how much it really helps. As far as efficiency, a barbarian + their hireling is not as useful as 2 characters.
    Last edited by Cubethulu; 04-08-2013 at 04:27 PM.

  2. #22
    Community Member brickwall's Avatar
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    I personally solo delera's all 4 parts on elite at level 5 every life your mileage will vary.
    Last edited by brickwall; 04-08-2013 at 04:27 PM.
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  3. #23
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    You may not like what Brickwall is saying, but you can't deny it is true. There is no real need for good DPS until you start talking about raiding and EH/EE quests, and even there its debatable how much it really helps. As far as efficiency, a barbarian + their hireling is not as useful as 2 characters.
    Yes, it's the best advice ever. Summarized like this:

    Hi, my friends and i are all new players, and i want some advice on how to play my cleric better as a healer.

    Advice: Your friends all suck, stop playing with them.

    For all the people who keep saying that clerics are not healers. Maybe that cure spell that you get every level that you can't even remove if you want to should be your first clue? Clerics are healers. It doesn't matter what else they do. It doesn't even matter if they never even use the ability. Same way as rogues and arti's are trappers. It's a specific ability that not every class in the game has.

    Saying that you can do other things is irrelevant in this case. And for the umpteenth time i've said this, if you can't figure out that there is a middle ground between never healing and only healing, it's you that needs to learn to play better.

  4. #24
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayworks View Post
    ...
    At lower levels, the Soundburst spell is good for stunning mobs.

    After 9th level, Greater Command is even better for crowd control.

    Together, both spells actually save SP. Why? Because a stunned or flattened mob is a mob that isn't hitting anyone. Less damage on your party is a good thing.

    ...
    Just a note neither of these spells would be useful in Deleria's Chain against the Undead.

    I actually disagree with Brickwall, but it is more on style and my experience of being able to take newer players willing to listen and use tactics when out classed to win the day. So basically what a "Fail" build means. I do agree that a Party full of Clerics/FvSs or WF Wizards/Sorcerers would be difficult to beat, especially if they all know how to play together as a party.

    A cleric is not a Healer - it is just one of the classes that has an easier time providing the primary source of healing for a party [Notice the word primary - which denotes that there are Secondary and other sources]
    Last edited by Enoach; 04-08-2013 at 04:32 PM.

  5. #25
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayworks View Post
    I would like to reiterate what Stormraiser said.

    A Cleric is not a healbot.

    At lower levels, the Soundburst spell is good for stunning mobs.

    After 9th level, Greater Command is even better for crowd control.

    Together, both spells actually save SP. Why? Because a stunned or flattened mob is a mob that isn't hitting anyone. Less damage on your party is a good thing.

    Learn when to cast offensively and when to stand back and heal. Takes a little time, but its worth it.
    Are you the one that gets to tell people how they play their characters? Some people actually like to heal. Some people like to play with people who like to heal. Who are you to tell them they are playing wrong?

  6. #26
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brickwall View Post
    I personally solo delera's all 4 parts on elite at level 5 every life your mileage will vary.
    I wouldn't doubt it.

  7. #27
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I wouldn't doubt it.
    Don't you just love it when vets need to repeatedly tell new players how uber they are? Or lovely comments like: Duh, nothing in this game is hard till epic elite. I been playing 5 years and i would know.

  8. #28
    Community Member Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    on the healing front-

    this maybe expensive, but its not nearly as expensive as pots.

    use consumables.

    lower levels: use wands/burst/occasional heals from your blue bar
    mid levels: use wands/burst/aura use your mass heals (mass cure light/mod)
    high levels: use scrolls/burst mostly

    now onto other fronts.

    not being rude here, but learn to play.

    by this i mean either listen to the vets in the grope or get some experience in the quests -

    for example, in co6 part 5? you have several fire mephits that summon more mephits and swarm the group. in this situation, you may want to stand back and just heal the meeles. But you dont know that unless you have ran the quest before or one of the other people in the group tells you.

    finally you have damage reduction. again in the previous example - you know you are fighting fire mephits and air mephits. so you buff the group with resist fire resist elec. if damage can be prevented, your blue bar goes a lot longer.

    the other thing is work with your group. if you have one, have a tank intimi or get aggro otherwise and you can heal him while the rest of the group hits from behind taking little to no damage. have wizards/sorcs use cc/insta kills - a dead mob doesnt hurt anyone.

    one last suggestion - dont feel bad when someone dies. sometimes, it really is cheaper to raise someone then heal them.

    the final thing i have to say is this:

    dont always listen to the vets, especially on the forums. find your method of playing that you like and have fun. you may not be able to solo deleras on elite in your sleep, but have fun
    main toons: hauteur(silly caster) Sttomper (silly barbarian)-jammiee (Silly paladin)
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  9. #29
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    My advice as a player who started out as a cleric:

    Get a decent dps 1-hander and a shield with devotion and start poking the bad guys while keeping your focus on the party, invest in a couple of wands to help top people off between fights and eventually invest in a stack of heal scrolls.
    Scroll healing is a relatively cheap and powerful alternative to spending SP, especially if you're running out of SP and would otherwise have to resort to mnemonics.

    You should learn when to stand back and when to start swinging through trial and error, people that get upset over a firstlifer screwing up isn't people you'd want to group with anyway.

    And finally, ignore everyone that tells you that clerics aren't healers, if they can't handle healing they're in no position to start giving advice on clerics. That said, a cleric can do a lot more than just heal, wich I think you should start looking into.

    This is my advice, take it or leave it.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by brickwall View Post
    I personally solo delera's all 4 parts on elite at level 5 every life your mileage will vary.
    The op is a first life toon, wearing Korthos gear, and has very limited experience grouping. Either you're here to say that the above pretty much describes your skill level and therefore when and what you solo is relevant to the op, or you're here to say "Everybody look at me! I am ever so good at this game!"

    Which is it?
    Last edited by yun_chang; 04-08-2013 at 05:51 PM.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobgoblin View Post
    on the healing front-

    this maybe expensive, but its not nearly as expensive as pots.

    use consumables.
    This.

    Scrolls are cheap and pots are expensive.

    I'll usually make a judgement by the first fight how this will go down.

    If I feel in anyway that the party is going to be heal intensive then I will use scrolls for much of the healing when I can so I don't risk running out of SP.

    The judgement concerning whether I will use scrolls or not, or whether I will be very concerned with healing or can kill stuff, starts with a aura or mass heal to judge heal amp.

    Then I'll observe the first fight and see how the damage is coming in. I decide who is a rock, who is a sponge, and who is a squish.

    I pay special attention to fleshy spell casters, rogues and rangers as these classes have a huge variance in terms of survivability.
    In fact, sometimes I'll let a rogue or ranger hang at half health just to see if they will/can heal themselves.

    If there is no liabilities then I breath a sigh of relief because I can have fun pew-pewing with my SP.

    If there is a danger toon then I know i have to watch out.

    Observe how the party is fail, if they are fail, so you can compensate.

    Does the barbarian always charge forward and take massive damage without killing much? Then cast cometfall/greater command at the mobs he's charging to give him an easy target that doesn't hit back.

    Does the sorc always pull too much agro? Then keep your finger on the ready to switch to him/her.

    Is the WF arti really charging a pack of ravenous rust monsters? Get ready to cast multiple heals at -50% heal amp.

    After you have made your judgement try to formulate a strategy in your head before a fight.

    "Ok. I know the barb will open the door before anyone gets there and the rogue will follow and fail an assassination - hmmm - I'll cast a commetfall at the door to disorient the mobs as he's opening it and run forward targeting the barb and hope I can get a line of sight to cast a mass cure on the barb catching him and the rogue before both go splat."

    The Prime directive is always stay alive.

    Don't let yourself be surrounded. Don't die so the barb can live. Keep a path to an exit if you can.

    You are the last line between fail and win sometimes.

    Better they are running back down a hallway to get a raise from you then to have 6 dings.

    Edit - Oh hey. You're on G-Land.
    Look me up if you ever need help - characters listed below.
    I sent you some FRDS to sell for scroll money.
    Good luck with your healing.

    .
    Last edited by phillymiket; 04-08-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Advice: Your friends all suck, stop playing with them.

    For all the people who keep saying that clerics are not healers. Maybe that cure spell that you get every level that you can't even remove if you want to should be your first clue? Clerics are healers. It doesn't matter what else they do. It doesn't even matter if they never even use the ability. Same way as rogues and arti's are trappers. It's a specific ability that not every class in the game has.
    Every class can heal. I'm working on a BYOH Barb project right now. Your comparison to rogues and arti's is a flawed comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Saying that you can do other things is irrelevant in this case. And for the umpteenth time i've said this, if you can't figure out that there is a middle ground between never healing and only healing, it's you that needs to learn to play better.
    And anyone that thinks BYOH means IDH (I don't heal) needs to learn a few things as well...

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillymiket View Post
    "Ok. I know the barb will open the door before anyone gets there and the rogue will follow and fail an assassination - hmmm - I'll cast a commetfall at the door to disorient the mobs as he's opening it and run forward targeting the barb and hope I can get a line of sight to cast a mass cure on the barb catching him and the rogue before both go splat."
    In a non-raid situation, if a player is rushing into a situation where they can't live the few seconds it takes the healer to arrive... the WORST thing you can do is heal that player... you are just re-enforcing bad behavior and passing the problem on to the next healer.

    My play on that would be... *door open* *1-2 seconds* *ding* *ding*... "wow you died fast..." I'll rez you after I clear this room.

    Of course, suicidal idiots tend to be much less of a problem in BYOH groups because everyone expects to be responsible for their red bar. Any healing thrown their way is conditional on responsible behavior. I'll even tolerate an occasional bad idea, but bad habits... get to fend for themselves.

  14. #34
    Community Member captain1z's Avatar
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    Default tips for healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmamor View Post
    I started playing DDO last September and my first toon was a Cleric who is now a 9.

    I have been soloing with hirelings since starting (along with other toons - Druid, FVS etc) and last night was my first party with fellow guildies (they were fab btw) on elite on Derlera's Tomb. I died a few times and we had a total wipe and some near wipes. I used a ton of mnemic pots (v expensive) but I don't feel I did my best.

    I am looking for advice on how to best play a healing Cleric - do I keep out of the way and heal or do I get involved in the fight?

    I would appreciate your comments as I would like to be a beyond-awesome Cleric!

    Thanks folks
    - think of yourself as a quarterback. Step back and watch the whole field. Make sure you are in a safe position that has line of sight to as many of your teamates as possible.

    - do the math. Test all your curative spells and wands on yourself, several times. Get an idea of how much each one heals for. If you see a life bar at half or less, choose the spell that will get them as close to full as possible, without going too much over. Dont toss a 400 pt heal on a guy whose down 50 hp, use a wand (unless spending the sp is cheaper).

    - Dont sweat the small stuff. If a group is more than 75% health, but not full, poisoned, cursed or whatever and theres not much happening..... Let then top off and cure these issues themselves. No reason you should have to but if they cant, then feel free to do so.

    - communicate. Let your group know what your healing style is. Example: I'll target the tank and focus all mass heals around him or I'll be fighting up front but will have my healing aura on, mass heals on me or "Im a full service haler, type in chat if u need anything".

    - No when to say when. If a situation or player is causing sp and resources to drain rapidly, speak up and suggest or ask for ways to slow the drain. This may mean a different plan of action or for a player to be more cautious.

    - an ounce of prevention. If you know the quest has lots of lava and undead, make sure everyone has fire resist and deathward. Thats damage you wont have to heal.........pretty obvious advice here. Stoneskin, barkskin, blur, ect are part of it....its not all on you.


    Ive been playing a cleric for years and Im still a bottom tier healer (imo). If things get too crazy I can fold under the pressure (usually on elite with too many ppl spread too far apart....spinner of shadows is a good example of where I under perform).

    Do what you can. Its usually a thankless job that few want to do, I do it because there are players out there who have and will do it for me.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Are you the one that gets to tell people how they play their characters? Some people actually like to heal. Some people like to play with people who like to heal. Who are you to tell them they are playing wrong?
    I don't see anything in my post telling him how to play or that he's doing it wrong. I see advice trying to help the guy out in saving his SP, which he admits to running out of a lot.

    But what I do see is the hypocrisy of someone claiming I'm telling the guy how to play while at same time telling me what to do. Pot - kettle - black.

  16. #36
    Community Member Terebinthia's Avatar
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    Some really good advice here.

    I am going to pop this excellent thread here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202343 - Samulas' Path to Enlightenment is older now but still a must read for new clerics in my opinion - iirc there is discussion of radiant servant in the thread if not in the OP.

    I only skimmed the replies, but I presume someone has covered getting a potency / devotion / radiance item? The thaumaturgy quarterstaves can throw up some nice combos there, and it can be useful to boost your spellpower in boss / raid fights if you aren't intending to melee.

    Finally, and perhaps most importantly, if you are new to grouping, never feel obliged to drink a ton of mnemonics to support a suboptimal group. Scrolls are your friend and are much much cheaper
    Terebinthia, Terebynthia, Tereana, Tereaina, Tereanna, Terebyte, Terechan, Terebinthis
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  17. #37
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Yes, it's the best advice ever. Summarized like this:

    Hi, my friends and i are all new players, and i want some advice on how to play my cleric better as a healer.

    Advice: Your friends all suck, stop playing with them.

    For all the people who keep saying that clerics are not healers. Maybe that cure spell that you get every level that you can't even remove if you want to should be your first clue? Clerics are healers. It doesn't matter what else they do. It doesn't even matter if they never even use the ability. Same way as rogues and arti's are trappers. It's a specific ability that not every class in the game has.

    Saying that you can do other things is irrelevant in this case. And for the umpteenth time i've said this, if you can't figure out that there is a middle ground between never healing and only healing, it's you that needs to learn to play better.
    Every class can self heal if you build them to do so. The only reason you can't self heal on some classes is cause you choose to not be able to. I self healed on barb life, i'm self healing on fighter life, there's really no problem at all.

    The middle ground between never healing and only healing is beeing a good cleric/fvs: in most pugs it just means let mana sponges die and complete the quest by yourself or with those that do not need you to spam every cure you got on them to stay alive.
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  18. #38
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Every class can self heal if you build them to do so. The only reason you can't self heal on some classes is cause you choose to not be able to. I self healed on barb life, i'm self healing on fighter life, there's really no problem at all.

    The middle ground between never healing and only healing is beeing a good cleric/fvs: in most pugs it just means let mana sponges die and complete the quest by yourself or with those that do not need you to spam every cure you got on them to stay alive.
    Yes, i have a fighter who, at level 20, can do no fail heal scrolls with no gear swaps. I have learned something from playing him, and also having played a cleric, and several other toons who can heal themselves with spells. Scroll healing is a very pale imitation of spell healing. At least if you are doing it on yourself. Healing someone else with a scroll is one thing, but making concentration checks, and just having to constantly swap between your weapon and a scroll is a pain in the butt. That's my take on it.

    Newer players are going to have a much harder time making self healing characters from some classes. Or for that matter to even know they are supposed to, since it's far from obvious. For the record, when i talk about healing, i am only talking about hit point recovery. Not poison, disease, etc.

    The idea that letting everybody die is sometimes the best healing is just beyond my thinking. If i'm playing a game with someone which involves throwing and catching a ball, and it turns out that someone isn't good at catching, my reaction is not to throw the ball harder, or more inaccurately in an attempt to make them fail and look foolish. I'll try to adjust how i'm throwing to make it as easy as possible for them to catch it. Because i want us both to succeed.

    I'm not there to teach people lessons. I'm there to do my best to help the group succeed. If i have to do more than someone else because i can, then i will. If i can easily complete the quest solo with everyone around me dead ( because i intentionally let them die) I should be good enough to get everybody through alive, or at least try to.

    Everyone will eventually figure it out and improve, or they won't. In my opinion, trying to provide 'tough love' by intentionally making it harder on people is never helpful. Some people need more help than others. Because they are new, because they are untalented, whatever, i don't distinguish. The thing to remember is that this is a game. Absolutely nothing we are doing here is actually important.

  19. #39
    Community Member catmamor's Avatar
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    All good advice and certainly making me rethink my methods. I have rejigged my feats to hopefully get rid of the useless/less useful and have stocked up on wands and scrolls.

    I think going with a zerging party on elite might have been a little ambitious for my first party but it was certainly a learning experience!

    I didn't buff as there was another cleric in the group who covered that, he melee'd and also healed and about half way through the 2nd of Delera's I learnt to stay out of the way of mobs and throw some heals and do some casting, although I need more in the way of mob control I think.

    Thank you so much - you guys are super patient with us newbies! It's great to know there are more experienced brains around to pick!


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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    The idea that letting everybody die is sometimes the best healing is just beyond my thinking. If i'm playing a game with someone which involves throwing and catching a ball, and it turns out that someone isn't good at catching, my reaction is not to throw the ball harder, or more inaccurately in an attempt to make them fail and look foolish. I'll try to adjust how i'm throwing to make it as easy as possible for them to catch it. Because i want us both to succeed.
    I once lived in a country neighborhood where everyone let their dogs run free. There was this one little trouble maker dog who loved running along side cars. Eventually the dog found that if it faked running in front of the car, the car would slam on the brakes. Dog thought that was great and started doing it more and more aggressively. One day a driver wasn't paying attention and that was the end of that dog.

    Letting people sink or swim on their own when the consequences aren't steep is a valid way to take care of people. If a few people had honked their horn at the dog but not slammed on the brakes, it might have developed a healthy fear of getting into dangerous situations.

    Winning and losing are part of learning and growing up. No one said NEVER heal, that was just a misunderstanding on your part by taking what was said to an extreme... What was said was that if they were taking a high amount of unnecessary damage to the point that the drain on the spell point was a threat to the quest completion then the responsible thing to do was to let them face their consequences. In that case, I (and most others) will provide a reasonable rate of healing so that the "win" is possible, but only if they correct the behavior. If a player cannot survive against trash mobs while the cleric is chain casting heal scrolls (literally throwing platinum at them...) it isn't because I was a mean wittle cleric.

    Learning by consequences isn't just opinion, it is learning theory. Learning is ABC:
    • Antecedent - what happens right before the behavior occurs.
    • Behavior - What they did
    • Consequence - what happens as a consequence of the behavior.

    Here is an article with details

    Bottom line, if you heal stupid then you get more stupid. Provide the correct level of healing and the bad behavior will correct itself. It ain't that hard.

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