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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    In a thread full of giving up and foaming at the mouth BYOH bashing, the post above was a good start.

    <snip>

    Gear and combat tactics can go a very very long way towards a point where you don't have to heal except in very extraordinary situations.
    Hey I said that stuff first...

    Choices right now:
    - healing options - you've covered
    - stopping getting hit so much - AC, blur, moving out of the way in time, etc
    - stopping the mobs so that they can't hit you as much - crowd control like trip, stun, using caster's webs in the party,etc
    - when you do get hit taking less damage - resistances, PRR (highest level armor type you can), etc.
    ~Thelanis ~ Khyber ~

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    Hey I said that stuff first...

    Choices right now:
    - healing options - you've covered
    - stopping getting hit so much - AC, blur, moving out of the way in time, etc
    - stopping the mobs so that they can't hit you as much - crowd control like trip, stun, using caster's webs in the party,etc
    - when you do get hit taking less damage - resistances, PRR (highest level armor type you can), etc.
    +1 to you too then

  3. #23
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
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    I had a lot of fun with my halfling pure fighter (dragonmarks, devotion item, healing amp gear). I recently TRd him nto a multiclass char to further improve his survivability. Even if you don't want to reroll and/or don't want to play a halfling, there are a few things I learned from that character that aren't bound to the race that might help you:

    - Healing amp gear: more hit points per potion, scroll, incoming spell, dragonmark etc.

    - tactical feats/attacks: (improved) trip, stunning attack: a mob that can't fight back won't cause any damage

    - (lesser) vampirism weapon: a lesser vampirism weapon heals 1 hp per mob per attack, regular vampirism heals 1d3 (e.g. if you hit 3 mobs with cleave and great cleave while you wield a vampirism weapon you gain a total of 6d3 hp). Healing amplification applies to these effects, and with a high enough crafting skill both lesser and regular vampirism can be crafted.

  4. #24
    The Hatchery Nedime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeliCat View Post
    Hey I said that stuff first...

    Choices right now:
    - healing options - you've covered
    - stopping getting hit so much - AC, blur, moving out of the way in time, etc
    - stopping the mobs so that they can't hit you as much - crowd control like trip, stun, using caster's webs in the party,etc
    - when you do get hit taking less damage - resistances, PRR (highest level armor type you can), etc.
    You forgot : killing stuff faster what is dead doesn't hurt you anymore ... well except in orchard.

    I'd personnally suggest if you're first lifer (thus doesn't have access to sf pots and uber twink gear) to try NOT BYOH. I believe it is more important to learn the content and the quests specificities than to be 100% self sufficient and BYOH on a first life.

    After this as it has been said, you have to

    - be able to heal efficiently (pots/wands/UMD/dragonmarks/dilletante) + decent heal amp
    - get less hit (ac, concealment/incorporality but also CC and combat tactics like stun trip ...)
    - absorb dmg
    Succubus pretty ... too bad she try to kill us
    Lewela FvS (5th life)-Aezechiel Sorc (3rd life)-Usuldur Monk (5th life)-Larsenkarden Cleric (2nd life)-Punkcanard Eva-Artie (2nd life)-Kakophonyc Virtuoso/Fighter
    Le Dernier Chapitre ///// Argonnessen

  5. #25
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Invis

    Diplomacy

    Dont be the first to enter a room

    When everyone else runs into the middle to fight the mobs, you run around the edge of the room and break the boxes

    cleave and great cleave work great for large groups of boxes.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mubjon View Post
    If all you are seeing are BYOH LFMs for your level, make your own group and have a hire on stand by just in case.

    Just put in the LFM description that you are looking for a divine. Most clerics/fvs do not mind healing, they just do not want to be a babysitter for the entire time they are in the quest. There are some that do like that, but I know many many more that avoid LFMs that state "need healer".

    Also Druids can heal pretty decent in all content and does not take much more than the highest level devotion gear for their level and a few ranks into their enhancements. So when looking for that person to help keep you up in the quest do not hesitate to click druid as well.

    The other thing you can do is splash a level or three of cleric, if you do not have helf, and get access to no umd check wands, a little blue bar for casting the cure light spell. Go up to 3 cleric to get cure moderate and take the empower healing feat, heal amp to boost the benefit from those low level cure spells. The best thing about them is unmetta'd they can be cast from echos which I think you get at level 2 of a caster class.
    I agree with most of this, however I have issues with a few.
    It will lower your odds, but don't ask for a "divine" if you need a healer. Being a divine class does not pigeonhole you into a healer: some divines are unwilling, or even unable to heal a group. (I've met several favoured souls with no healing spells, intending to only bother with Heal.)
    Likewise many Druids don't consider themselves as divines, but as Mubjon says, most Druids are capable of healing a group.

    I believe that Clerics have access to Echoes of Power at level one. Casting Cure spells from that is only ever going to be a trickle, so you might not want to bother with more levels. You will also need to get your Wisdom to 11 to cast.
    The most important thing that the level of cleric does, is grant access to wands. Not just Cure Critical Wounds, but other spells such as the Remove Curse/Disease/Blindness and defensive buffs.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    I agree with most of this, however I have issues with a few.
    It will lower your odds, but don't ask for a "divine" if you need a healer. Being a divine class does not pigeonhole you into a healer: some divines are unwilling, or even unable to heal a group. (I've met several favoured souls with no healing spells, intending to only bother with Heal.)
    Likewise many Druids don't consider themselves as divines, but as Mubjon says, most Druids are capable of healing a group.
    While there are FvS that do not carry the cure spells and wait til they get the heal spell, clerics and druids can change out spells in taverns and shrines.

    Now I will admit that divine might not get him someone that can help with keeping the group up, but if he takes a fvs, druid or cleric he can ask them if they mind helping keep him up and even hand out a mnemonic pot at the start of the quest. Or maybe a wand of cure (whatever level the quest might be), doing things like that really help divines out, as most of the time it is expensive for a first life divine to run a quest. I know my first life I was always broke until I reached cap.

    I believe that Clerics have access to Echoes of Power at level one. Casting Cure spells from that is only ever going to be a trickle, so you might not want to bother with more levels. You will also need to get your Wisdom to 11 to cast.
    The most important thing that the level of cleric does, is grant access to wands. Not just Cure Critical Wounds, but other spells such as the Remove Curse/Disease/Blindness and defensive buffs.
    The suggestion for 3 levels of cleric was to get access to a better cure spell. With empower healing and some heal amp it should hit for around 70 points. Which is not to bad seeing as a cure serious pot will only get to around 30. With 3 levels of cleric that will be around 180 sp (with a 8 wisdom which will require a pot to be able to cast), which will get him around 10 casts (of empowered heal cure moderate) between shrines. Turn off the meta magic and the spells cost less than 12 sp each to cast. With echos of power going he can heal as needed til full and going on to the next group of monsters. Cure light is 6 sp and cure moderate is 8 with empower healing that turns into 16 and 18 respectively.

    And as you say the splash also gives him access to wands of defensive buffs as well.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calozz78 View Post
    Get a few friends together, use a guest pass and get your silver flame favor. You will never need to wait for a healer again.
    As you likely will stab your eyes out with a fork before you get through those awful chains.

  9. #29
    The Hatchery Nedime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    As you likely will stab your eyes out with a fork before you get through those awful chains.
    This is very subjective. I always do all Necros on all my toons on every life. I enjoy 90% of them and I need the xp from all of them.
    Succubus pretty ... too bad she try to kill us
    Lewela FvS (5th life)-Aezechiel Sorc (3rd life)-Usuldur Monk (5th life)-Larsenkarden Cleric (2nd life)-Punkcanard Eva-Artie (2nd life)-Kakophonyc Virtuoso/Fighter
    Le Dernier Chapitre ///// Argonnessen

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    This is very subjective. I always do all Necros on all my toons on every life. I enjoy 90% of them and I need the xp from all of them.
    Same on all counts.

  11. #31
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    This is very subjective. I always do all Necros on all my toons on every life. I enjoy 90% of them and I need the xp from all of them.
    I regularly level past Necro III in it's entirety without touching it! {First Life I know}.

    I've got 4 Second life characters into double figures now and EVERY one of them has had to take Lvl 11 before completing all four Shadow Flags!

    Getting the first 400 kills + Explorers and Rares in Sands, Orchard and GH {not 400 of each in GH Eurrgh!} means you don't have to touch the Orchard quests at all until you're holding 17! {First Life again}.


    400 Silver Flame Favour is likely to be hit at 20+ on a First Life even with Lords of Dust now making it easier!
    So really Silver Flame Favour is for TRs only {and Epic N/H now}.
    And if said TR gimped his/her first life and TRd instantly on hitting 20 he/she is going to have exactly the same issue on 2nd life!


    Considering the Importance the Forum Player Base puts on these Pots I'd ask that the Devs do us all a Favour and make the Lesser Pots available at 150 Favour {that favour reward is frankly a joke anyway and needs the upgrade}.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    You forgot : killing stuff faster what is dead doesn't hurt you anymore ... well except in orchard.

    I'd personnally suggest if you're first lifer (thus doesn't have access to sf pots and uber twink gear) to try NOT BYOH. I believe it is more important to learn the content and the quests specificities than to be 100% self sufficient and BYOH on a first life.
    You could argue that killing the mobs comes under the category of "stopping the mobs so that they don't hit you as much" as being the ultimate form of "stop" :P. But considering a recent bad hard shroud I was in that seemed to not have enough dps, the war of attrition of killing him before healers resources were used ... yeah I'd pay that as another category. (We had 3 rounds part 4 lol. Epic! We had wall part 2 also. Love pug shrouds like that )
    ~Thelanis ~ Khyber ~

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Dont stop moving, use stun, trip.
    You have no evasion so casters are doing the most dmg to you, the more you move the less they will hit you with spells.
    When fighting mobs circle around them, use cleave, great cleave.



    He is fighter so no sneak attack dmg for him unless he has some item that will give him that.
    Oops my bad. I should ban myself from the new player forums - I'm no expert. Good item to have if you can fit it in on a body slot

    Good other suggestions too.
    ~Thelanis ~ Khyber ~

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I regularly level past Necro III in it's entirety without touching it! {First Life I know}.

    I've got 4 Second life characters into double figures now and EVERY one of them has had to take Lvl 11 before completing all four Shadow Flags!

    Getting the first 400 kills + Explorers and Rares in Sands, Orchard and GH {not 400 of each in GH Eurrgh!} means you don't have to touch the Orchard quests at all until you're holding 17! {First Life again}.


    400 Silver Flame Favour is likely to be hit at 20+ on a First Life even with Lords of Dust now making it easier!
    So really Silver Flame Favour is for TRs only {and Epic N/H now}.
    And if said TR gimped his/her first life and TRd instantly on hitting 20 he/she is going to have exactly the same issue on 2nd life!


    Considering the Importance the Forum Player Base puts on these Pots I'd ask that the Devs do us all a Favour and make the Lesser Pots available at 150 Favour {that favour reward is frankly a joke anyway and needs the upgrade}.
    My first life characters all have access to the silver flame pots by level 18. I of course make it a point to run the quests for those characters, so that is probably the difference.

    I guess it might be that most of my characters are caster classes and not melee characters. Heck even my melee characters splash atleast 6 levels of cleric for the RSI ability and many 7 for FOM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    BYOH Absolutely NEEDS to be Stipulated on the LFM!
    Not really. I rarely see it, and rarely use it.

    What's the more realistic scenario when nothing is specified? "I'm sure someone else is going to magically take care of me" or "Who knows if anyone else can or will take care of me, so I'd better make sure I can take care of myself" ? So far as I'm concerned, the latter, which makes BYOH the default for most LFMs unless explicitly specified otherwise.

    The only time I make sure I bother putting "BYOH" in my always-BYOH-anyway LFMs is if I'm running on a divine life. For some reason when I do the EXACT SAME THING as a divine as, say, a Fighter, people lose all grasp of reality and expect that I'm their babysitter. Even if the very same people are smart enough to bring and drink pots for the exact same LFM when I'm leading it on a Fighter. So as a divine I have to spell out what ought to already be default behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    BUT be fair - There's many people out there who DON'T WANT to join BYOH groups!
    If someone wants some special kind of LFM, they should start one. And they do, too. I see those "healer needed" LFMs up often enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    P.S. - Elite BB...<snip>...does NOT mean ZERG unless it also states ZERG!
    It doesn't mean "sniff flowers" or "no zerging" unless it states those, either. So zerging is fair game.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    You forgot : killing stuff faster what is dead doesn't hurt you anymore
    You have a smiley, but that's actually seriously good advice.

    Kill twice as fast, and you only need half as much healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nedime View Post
    I'd personnally suggest if you're first lifer (thus doesn't have access to sf pots and uber twink gear) to try NOT BYOH. I believe it is more important to learn the content and the quests specificities than to be 100% self sufficient and BYOH on a first life.
    Not try? I strongly disagree. Yes, some things only come with better gear, etc., that a newer player doesn't have. But just because you can't reach some mythical "100% self sufficient" doesn't mean you should just give up and not even bother.

    OP, do the best you can. Others in the thread have already given lots of specific advice.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Considering the Importance the Forum Player Base puts on these Pots I'd ask that the Devs do us all a Favour and make the Lesser Pots available at 150 Favour
    Maybe. I suggest they replace half of current Major Mnemonic drops with full Silver Flame pots, and half of current Greater Mnemonic drops as Lesser Silver Flame pots.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    If you do join a group not advertised as BYOH, and it does turn into one, your best bet is to point out that you will have trouble. They will either kick you, saving you from a probable bad experience, or they will be willing to work with you and help you out. Do what you can to keep yourself up, let the casters and self-healers take the brunt, and use what you have to help out. Remember that you don't need Improved Trip to be able to trip
    QFT, emphasis added, +1.

  19. #39
    Community Member JasonJi72's Avatar
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    All the above advice is very good.

    I just wanted to add one more tactic that I haven't seen suggested... straffing (or however you spell it).

    I instinctively learned this tactic will playing archers, and subconsciously carried it over to the melee side when I found myself in situations where I could not keep up with the incoming damage.

    Mobility, mobility, mobility...

    Kill the casters first and quickly. Then cleave on the outer edges of the group, constantly moving with straffing, some backpedling, and jumping to the other side of the group, causing them to stop and turn to follow you. You can easily reduce incoming damage by 50% this way without losing as much dps. Once you have softened them up, grab your shield and finish them off.

    As a tank with a tower shield, you can 'turtle up' when you have aggro, and then use your greatsword to cut them down when they attack your friends.

    By adding 2 paladin or a ranger level, you can also use wands in conjunction with your potions for faster healing between battles (and while in turtle mode). It is also much easier to UMD wands than scrolls. I take sf UMD on characters that need it, then swap it out later.

    Personally, I don't bother with silver flame pots, because all of my characters can self heal quite well thank you.

    EDIT: I do aggree with one thing though... if you are drinking potions or using scrolls, you are not killing anything.
    Last edited by JasonJi72; 04-07-2013 at 09:04 PM.
    Jyn... Kender... Thelanis

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  20. #40
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    Here is a video of Barby-oh (My BYOH Barb project) doing the first 4 minutes of Tears of Drakaan on Elite with no ship buffs and using no potions. She just hit level 9 today, more to come as I get there.

    Gear is nothing amazing:
    Head: Helm of frost
    Eyes: Goggles of secret door detection, should have been +1 attack/blindness ward but I forgot
    Armor: Life shield battle half plate of spear block
    Wrist: Bracers of wind
    Ring: Acrobats ring
    Ring: Feather falling of false life
    Boots: Anger's Step
    Hands: Ogre Power +5 Gloves
    Belt: Spare hand (lvl 8, teir 1)
    Cloak: Envenomed Cloak
    Trinket: Bold trinket (not greater, just bold trinket)
    Neck: Healt +4 necklace of natural armor +1
    Sword: Bodyfeeder falchion of lesser vampirism (with master crafting)

    The build is vanilla Barb:
    Feats: Stunning Blow, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness

    You also get to see how bad my current internet is.

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