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  1. #61
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    ...piking isn't fun.
    /fail
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  2. #62
    Community Member Kalari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredericko View Post
    That quote depicts a player trying to boss around another player who is actually playing his/her class to one of the class' strengths. This thread is about people choosing to not play their own class to one of the class' strengths, and not just any strength: we're talking a role which
    a.) has a very high return-of-investment for them, meaning very few feats and APs yield great rewards;
    b.) is a really useful asset in many parties;
    c.) is harder to fill by other classes (unlike other critical roles such as CC or DPS).

    This is not about telling divines to stick to heals and do nothing else. A fvs/cleric that just heals and doesn't do any of DPSing, AoEs, DoTs, CC or instakill is also a waste of that class' potential and is a toon that ranks low in my party-with list (some outstanding exceptions apply).
    I love how you think people who see a divine do not automatically assume our mana belongs to the group, and that its only a rare case of jerks telling another player how to play. This whole thread is blatantly full of players who have posted what a divine and other classes "Jobs" are so I find it laughable that people are just equating it to the side of a person who doesn't do x is wrong.

    I love byoh what I hate is joining one on a divine and people forgetting to take care of themselves.

    I think many anti byoh people probably don't run in them or had one bad experience with someone who didn't understand that byoh with a cleric or fvs doesn't mean you never toss a heal, it does mean that the person playing said classes are probably just as much in the fray of things as you are, so its wiser to make sure you can keep yourself up at times.

    When I play in a byoh group I never let someone die if I can help it, I am willing to heal up someone who got caught in a bad situation but im not monitoring HP bars the way some players "expect" me to. That is the most frustrating about playing a class I have loved since PNP. And yes I know ddo is not Pnp but there are somethings I sorely miss that MMO gaming have ruined for those of us who love the power of characters who can do damage and yes heal ourselves and others.

    Its why I mostly guild only or solo now with my divines, I do not like or accept anyone who tells me how to use my mana bar even if they think they are doing it for the good of the team. And if I post a byoh on any of my divines it means self sufficient which by many of the people who have posted in this thread maybe lacking on our server.

    And edit

    So that the back and forth on my end stops because I don't see my mind being changed on this my point is and always will be DDO is a game, we have many types of players, some of us do not want to be forced into roles or jobs. I don't get mad at people who wish to play the game in a way that is fun for them that includes assassins who aren't trapsmiths, divines who want to do damage and heal optionally or even not at all (yes battle clerics do not offend me) I don't get mad at arcanes who don't buff I provide my own even on my melees specially now due to augments. I guess its wrong for me to some of you to take personal responsibility for my own fun but that's how I play and why I still play. So you can all state your opinions on how your ideal team efforts is best for the game, I will continue to have fun with other free spirits who enjoy ddo and not reduce it to forced free labor.
    Last edited by Kalari; 04-09-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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  3. #63
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    ...I'll just follow the cleric around not attacking anything or hell I just won't join the group have fun doing quests by yourself because I actually like playing this gaming...piking isn't fun.
    Thank you ! If barbarian contribution in byoh group is to follow the cleric around slowing him down, and is unable to complete objectives on his own, then he should leave such group or become better geared or more experienced until he is able to do such things.
    And no, dumbass -5 % hireling doesn't count.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    I love how you think people who see a divine do not automatically assume our mana belongs to the group, and that its only a rare case of jerks telling another player how to play. This whole thread is blatantly full of players who have posted what a divine and other classes "Jobs" are so I find it laughable that people are just equating it to the side of a person who doesn't do x is wrong.

    I love byoh what I hate is joining one on a divine and people forgetting to take care of themselves.

    I think many anti byoh people probably don't run in them or had one bad experience with someone who didn't understand that byoh with a cleric or fvs doesn't mean you never toss a heal, it does mean that the person playing said classes are probably just as much in the fray of things as you are, so its wiser to make sure you can keep yourself up at times.

    When I play in a byoh group I never let someone die if I can help it, I am willing to heal up someone who got caught in a bad situation but im not monitoring HP bars the way some players "expect" me to. That is the most frustrating about playing a class I have loved since PNP. And yes I know ddo is not Pnp but there are somethings I sorely miss that MMO gaming have ruined for those of us who love the power of characters who can do damage and yes heal ourselves and others.

    Its why I mostly guild only or solo now with my divines, I do not like or accept anyone who tells me how to use my mana bar even if they think they are doing it for the good of the team. And if I post a byoh on any of my divines it means self sufficient which by many of the people who have posted in this thread maybe lacking on our server.

    And edit

    So that the back and forth on my end stops because I don't see my mind being changed on this my point is and always will be DDO is a game, we have many types of players, some of us do not want to be forced into roles or jobs. I don't get mad at people who wish to play the game in a way that is fun for them that includes assassins who aren't trapsmiths, divines who want to do damage and heal optionally or even not at all (yes battle clerics do not offend me) I don't get mad at arcanes who don't buff I provide my own even on my melees specially now due to augments. I guess its wrong for me to some of you to take personal responsibility for my own fun but that's how I play and why I still play. So you can all state your opinions on how your ideal team efforts is best for the game, I will continue to have fun with other free spirits who enjoy ddo and not reduce it to forced free labor.
    I don't think I "own" a divine's blue bar. I simply expect a divine to pull their weight and earn their spot, just like everyone else. Any divine not healing others, as well as using their offensive arsenal are playing badly, and their spot can be filled by someone else that will bring more to the group. It's as simple as that.

    This doesn't mean I expect them to sit back and heal. I also expect everyone to be somewhat self sufficient. If you only throw emergency heals, that's great, and basically what I ask. But, we had a "what does BYOH mean" thread awhile ago, and there were many many people who said that even if there was a person dieing on the ground, they weren't obligated to throw a heal. Since there's so many bad divine players like that, it's a crapshoot whether you get one of those bad divine players or good divine players. It's also a crapshoot as to what a divine's BYOH LFM means.

  5. #65
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Incorrect a well-balanced party with abilities that synergize with the other members in the group each is much more effective than a party full of jack of all trades.
    Oh really? So 6 Jaggernauts are less effective than a cleric, a rogue, a bard, a wizard and a couple of dps?

    Tell me in which fantasy world please
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  6. #66
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    /fail
    Sorry I should have said "IMO piking is not fun" :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Thank you ! If barbarian contribution in byoh group is to follow the cleric around slowing him down, and is unable to complete objectives on his own, then he should leave such group or become better geared or more experienced until he is able to do such things.
    And no, dumbass -5 % hireling doesn't count.
    You took that entirely out of context by cutting out half the post and it was said with sarcasm. IN short I was saying if a Cleric is going to insist on not healing anyone why would I add him or her to my party instead of real melee DPS just like why would I add a Barbarian with UMD+Cure Minor Wounds wands to the group who wants to be the "healer" and refuses to melee.

    Also this vvvv

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I don't think I "own" a divine's blue bar. I simply expect a divine to pull their weight and earn their spot, just like everyone else. Any divine not healing others, as well as using their offensive arsenal are playing badly, and their spot can be filled by someone else that will bring more to the group. It's as simple as that.

    This doesn't mean I expect them to sit back and heal. I also expect everyone to be somewhat self sufficient. If you only throw emergency heals, that's great, and basically what I ask. But, we had a "what does BYOH mean" thread awhile ago, and there were many many people who said that even if there was a person dieing on the ground, they weren't obligated to throw a heal.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 04-09-2013 at 01:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Well if he can't be bothered to heal my "lazy" Wizard I can't be bothered to buff him and my Barbarian will do just that if I can't be healed I can't afford to go into full rage/death frenzy mode so i may as well unequip my greataxe...I'll just follow the cleric around not attacking anything
    Frenzy may not be BYOH compatible, but rage is just fine. Last night, my first life BYOH barb was doing shadow crypt, leading the charge into rooms and competing with the two wiz and the arti for leading kill count. I know kill count doesn't "mean anything", but if you manage to be high kill count on a shadow crypt elite speed run... you aren't hanging back and piking.

  8. #68
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    'Lona needs some real drama. There are 4 pages of "X class posted Y LFM"

    Who cares what someone put on their lfm. I thought the point was funny, so did some other people, others didn't. OMG Drama lama /fail
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    But, we had a "what does BYOH mean" thread awhile ago, and there were SMALL MINORITY OF people who said that even if there was a person dieing on the ground, they weren't obligated to throw a heal.
    Fixed that for you. You can have your own opinion, but not your own facts.

  10. #70
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Sprry I should have said "IMO piking is not fun" :P
    Getting better
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  11. #71
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikster View Post
    'Lona needs some real drama. There are 4 pages of "X class posted Y LFM"

    Who cares what someone put on their lfm. I thought the point was funny, so did some other people, others didn't. OMG Drama lama /fail
    You've been gone a long time. Is it time for some raid loot/shroud drama threads so you feel at home?

  12. #72
    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    You've been gone a long time. Is it time for some raid loot/shroud drama threads so you feel at home?
    Not necessarily, just whining about the quality of drama since I've been back
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I don't think I "own" a divine's blue bar. I simply expect a divine to pull their weight and earn their spot, just like everyone else. Any divine not healing others, as well as using their offensive arsenal are playing badly, and their spot can be filled by someone else that will bring more to the group. It's as simple as that.
    I think there is a big disparity in the abilities of a cleric or the amount of weight they can pull.
    I also think that many of the people making comments like yours haven't really played divines, while many of the people supporting the BYOH comment have played divines.

    The BYOH LFM could be viewed in a different way : Don't join the party if you can't contribute and take care of yourself.

    Full out DPS (we are just going to assume a vanilla barb or fighter who isn't self sufficient) is beneficial in two cases: beating down on bosses with a huge amount of HP and ability to kill things in one shot (or before the mobs have a chance to strike back)

    For MOST people these two cases are not applicable from level 6 to level 20+. Even at the 20+ level, very few quests really require UBER DPS, and when they do, often barbarians are not optimal at providing that DPS.

    In terms of usefulness, barbarians are...well. not very high up.

    Instakills, assassinates, massive AOE tend to be the best things from level 12 to 20
    In harder epics: Assassinates, CC, secondary CC (pin, control, blind etc.), burst damage, neg levels and the ability to heal yourself instantly tend to be the most important things.

    If you look at clerics, they have many of those characteristics, making them much more valuable compared to a pure DPS & stunning blow barb. Many of those abilities are present in "BYOH" builds so you can see why the TOR EE lfm was BYOH .

    Storm

  14. #74
    Community Member Llewndyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Or as the OP stated, every single person on the server can avoid their LFMs and then they dont have to nanny anyone.

    Why roll a cleric if not wanting to heal? This dude should have rolled a sorc. This guy is saying hes not willing to do half of what his class is capable of, while likely not bringing the DPS of a class that cant heal as well as he can. If someone is on a divine that cant (not built to) heal or wont (by choice) heal, they better be contributing the same DPS as a regular DPS build id take in their place, because thats the slot they are taking up.
    playa_eric hacked Chai's account!

    <.<

    >.>

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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    I love how you think people who see a divine do not automatically assume our mana belongs to the group, and that its only a rare case of jerks telling another player how to play. This whole thread is blatantly full of players who have posted what a divine and other classes "Jobs" are so I find it laughable that people are just equating it to the side of a person who doesn't do x is wrong.

    I love byoh what I hate is joining one on a divine and people forgetting to take care of themselves.

    I think many anti byoh people probably don't run in them or had one bad experience with someone who didn't understand that byoh with a cleric or fvs doesn't mean you never toss a heal, it does mean that the person playing said classes are probably just as much in the fray of things as you are, so its wiser to make sure you can keep yourself up at times.

    When I play in a byoh group I never let someone die if I can help it, I am willing to heal up someone who got caught in a bad situation but im not monitoring HP bars the way some players "expect" me to. That is the most frustrating about playing a class I have loved since PNP. And yes I know ddo is not Pnp but there are somethings I sorely miss that MMO gaming have ruined for those of us who love the power of characters who can do damage and yes heal ourselves and others.

    Its why I mostly guild only or solo now with my divines, I do not like or accept anyone who tells me how to use my mana bar even if they think they are doing it for the good of the team. And if I post a byoh on any of my divines it means self sufficient which by many of the people who have posted in this thread maybe lacking on our server.

    And edit

    So that the back and forth on my end stops because I don't see my mind being changed on this my point is and always will be DDO is a game, we have many types of players, some of us do not want to be forced into roles or jobs. I don't get mad at people who wish to play the game in a way that is fun for them that includes assassins who aren't trapsmiths, divines who want to do damage and heal optionally or even not at all (yes battle clerics do not offend me) I don't get mad at arcanes who don't buff I provide my own even on my melees specially now due to augments. I guess its wrong for me to some of you to take personal responsibility for my own fun but that's how I play and why I still play. So you can all state your opinions on how your ideal team efforts is best for the game, I will continue to have fun with other free spirits who enjoy ddo and not reduce it to forced free labor.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    I think there is a big disparity in the abilities of a cleric or the amount of weight they can pull.
    I also think that many of the people making comments like yours haven't really played divines, while many of the people supporting the BYOH comment have played divines.

    The BYOH LFM could be viewed in a different way : Don't join the party if you can't contribute and take care of yourself.

    Full out DPS (we are just going to assume a vanilla barb or fighter who isn't self sufficient) is beneficial in two cases: beating down on bosses with a huge amount of HP and ability to kill things in one shot (or before the mobs have a chance to strike back)

    For MOST people these two cases are not applicable from level 6 to level 20+. Even at the 20+ level, very few quests really require UBER DPS, and when they do, often barbarians are not optimal at providing that DPS.

    In terms of usefulness, barbarians are...well. not very high up.

    Instakills, assassinates, massive AOE tend to be the best things from level 12 to 20
    In harder epics: Assassinates, CC, secondary CC (pin, control, blind etc.), burst damage, neg levels and the ability to heal yourself instantly tend to be the most important things.

    If you look at clerics, they have many of those characteristics, making them much more valuable compared to a pure DPS & stunning blow barb. Many of those abilities are present in "BYOH" builds so you can see why the TOR EE lfm was BYOH .

    Storm
    Divines are not in competition with melees, they are in competition with other casters, in which case, they fail in comparison. All divines (including Druids) shine in the fact that they can fill many different roles at once, while being the master of none. Choosing to not fill those roles is a purposeful choice to gimp themselves.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Where did i say zerg? :O

    Splitting to complete objectives faster doesn't mean zerging
    On a playful note: if expecting people to know a quest and be resourceful enough so as to be able to execute more demanding tactics in order to complete the quest faster isn't zerging, then, my friend, I'd like to hear what your definition of "zerging" is. My point stands the same: BYOH in a LFM does not cover knowing quest and the will to run it faster. "Fast run - know quest" does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalari View Post
    I guess its wrong for me to some of you to take personal responsibility for my own fun but that's how I play and why I still play.
    The only way to play DDO the wrong way is not having fun.

    Just to clarify I'm not debating self-sufficiency, I don't think I have posted a LFM that didn't read "BYOH - IP" (quest allowing; with eDA I just post "BYOH - starting in 3 minutes" as I'm running to sell and repair then grab ship buffs) with my main (a 20ftr) in the last two years, not as much because I expect people to be able to take care of themselves, but because I might not have a big time window for playing or flat out just want to lay my hands on my main toon and start playing.

    I'm done with this thread as well. Peace be with y'all.

  18. #78
    Community Member elricken's Avatar
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    Couldn't be buggerd to read the whole thread. But I'd way rather do EEs with a bunch of people who can take care of themselves. Like seriously, 6 soloists are way more fun to play with compared to your average pug.
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  19. #79
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elricken View Post
    Couldn't be buggerd to read the whole thread. But I'd way rather do EEs with a bunch of people who can take care of themselves. Like seriously, 6 soloists are way more fun to play with compared to your average pug.
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    Last edited by DarkForte; 04-10-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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  20. #80
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    I think it's time I bring my cleric that heals ONLY with it's aura out of vacation. Sarlona seems so deserving of it at this time of great need.

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