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  1. #21
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    I like optional orbs, runnig through the demoweb and killing trash, but thats it.
    It would be fun raid, if not massive list of its flaws (extremally narrow variety of loot, stand under boobs and hold down attack button, mana drain making melee casters/divines worthless, and seriously crippling paladins, rangers and bards, overused 'I'm to awesome to fight! [...] On no! I lost! How could that be!?' theme, elminstrel)

    That things makes this raid terrible.

    And try to convince anyone to heal this raid. Unless you promis moment to switch to other toon, no healer will join (except those who just escaped insane asylums).

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley_Nicholas View Post
    Except that most people actually enjoy Tempest Spine.
    I would challenge this statement. It could be true, but from my own experience most people think that Tempest Spine is a joke. They usually put up an In Progress LFM once each life to blast through it for easy XP, but think that it is more like a quest that happens to involve 12 players rather than six rather than a real raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Uhmmm.. no.

    This is my favorite raid in the game....
    This boggles my mind, but you can think what you want, until:

    Because it is not some 20 minute cage match.

    It feels epic.

    The place is large, many mobs.

    Doing the optionals adds to the epic journey feel.

    I'm here to play the game, not do easy loot runs.
    Now, at this point it sounds to me like you are describing the Titan pre-raid+raid, not CitW! CitW is a zerg fest, of people all doing their own thing to try and force their way to completion, because it was very poorly designed and laid out.

    I am all for epic, D&D Module type of raids! But that just is ~not~ the feel that I get from CitW. At all.

  3. #23
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    CitW is a zerg fest, of people all doing their own thing to try and force their way to completion, because it was very poorly designed and laid out.
    It's not a zerg-fest for random PUGs... Most groups can't just run past everything and survive orange or red-alert... You have to play a little smarter than that for most groups, and the raid still feels epic for most of us.

    I always find it amusing when some guy from a top-notch guild leads a CiTW PUG, and he doesn't change his tactics AT ALL, and the group gets overwhelmed by red-alert... Then the powergamer rages at everyone, quits the group, and the 11 of us get ourselves rezzed, and finish the raid moving just a LITTLE bit slower.
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  4. #24
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Idk.. Personally I love this raid. I've been out of end game for a few months now with TR's, but before I left end game I would see/join EE CITW PUGs all the time. At least 4 times a week. And these pugs rarely ever wiped. Although, that's not to say it was a cake walk either.. lol

    I think the only thing that really needs to change is drop rates for items/comms, and maybe improve Anna's pathing a bit. Also fix Lolths hit box. It is ridiculously small for melee. Especially for such a large mob.

    I think the layout isn't to confusing once you get to know what you're doing, which cuts out a ton of the extra time in the raid. I remember in the first couple weeks the raid was out, we were seeing EN completions of like 5-6 hours? And those where without bugged instances in most cases. And now, in my experience it's about a 45-1hour raid on EH/EE, with any good PUG/Group.

    But this could be just on Argo.. I don't know. Because while it's a PUG, A lot of the end game raiders on Argo PUG their raids to some extent. So we never really go without leadership, and we always seem to have a majority of players who know what they are doing, which makes it a lot smoother, and a lot more fun.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    I would challenge this statement. It could be true, but from my own experience most people think that Tempest Spine is a joke. They usually put up an In Progress LFM once each life to blast through it for easy XP, but think that it is more like a quest that happens to involve 12 players rather than six rather than a real raid.
    There have been a number of threads over the years asking for more raids like Tempest spine and/or an upgrade to make Tempest Spine more relevant at endgame too. Here are a couple I found in a quick search.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=396419
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200761
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  6. #26
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    I concur that it's hard to do CiTW, I tend to fall asleep doing it... for the following reasons :

    - run here and there, follow mindlessly the little blue dots, stay in the pack.
    No real reason why you run here and there, you just have to.
    - Stupid fights, sit in a corner put autoattack on, and wait until all the mobs are dead.
    - I'll pass on the various retarded mechanism that are supposed to make it harder but are just a pita.
    ( jail on death, legs that blow people away into jail, mana draining, ... ).
    - Oh and navel bashing, don't forget mindless navel bashing.

    So in the end that makes it hard for me to stay awake.
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  7. #27
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Ana willingly sucks all the white out of two pairs of balls
    I see what you did there.
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  8. #28
    Community Member moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    - run here and there, follow mindlessly the little blue dots, stay in the pack.
    No real reason why you run here and there, you just have to.
    I was trying to remember exactly what it was that I never liked about this raid...all that running here and there!!!

    I do have fun sometimes, but I play healers who try to kill everything and everyone.

    I would prob put more of these together, if EH dropped 1d2 comms.
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  9. #29
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Not because it's difficult, mind you. I just find it tedious to the extreme.
    It is tedious. It needs to be made standard with FoT and offer commendations on par.

    It feels like I'm killing everything twice.
    You are killing (almost) everything twice.

    I was lucky enough to get the weapon I wanted on my third try.
    Congrats! That is lucky! It took me 13 tries.

    But every time after that, I felt as though I was doing a raid for nothing but randomly-generated loot.
    Plus randomly generated coms, with a larger chance of no coms. Yup.

    Not to mention having to listen to Lolth rant like a B-Movie villain.
    Yeah. That's our Lolth.

    Now, Fall of Truth, on the other hand, is so much better.
    Other than the running, so does CitW.

    It keeps you on your toes the entire time and requires the entire party to work in concert and communicate in order to win.
    Yup, but CitW is so long that it takes good leadership to complete it in under 50 minutes. So, that's pretty hard work, too.

    Not only that, you are guaranteed to get Heroic Commendations, even if you don't get any named loot. It's sad how I can loot six chests in CitW and get NOTHING but randgen.
    Couldn't agree more.

    Suggestions:

    Mix up the raid a bit. Have Lolth, her legs and her navel only show up at the end, and get rid of the portal keepers.
    Why? I kind of disagree here. It's ok to have a big bad boss fight where you kill her legs and then kill the portal keepers at the same time. They could be tougher, though.

    Make the raid more like An Offering of Blood, with a constant streams of enemies, gates, obstacles and some traps.
    Why?

    Make it so that one chest always drops a Heroic Commendation.
    Totally!!! It should be on par with FoT.

  10. #30
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menace13 View Post
    It's actually my favorite raid in the game. Lolth's B movie villain quips are the funniest In any quest. I mean, It's the first quest where I actually like the voice acting. By a mile.

    FoT has the dumbest voice overs ever. Both Truthful and Reaver. Garbage voice overs. And the writing is also garbage.

    At least with Lolth you get a feel of a being that you will not defeat, and she knows it. So she plays with her food.

    FoT... is all Boring, corny dialog. And is a kite fest of all kite fests to end kite fests.

    The Portal Keepers, The Orbs, Running around in a maze of webs, Breasts!!11111 What's not to like?
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  11. #31
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    CITW is the new Tempest Spine. Its more of a 12 person quest rather than a raid.
    Great insight Chai! My one thought is, after your point above, "but then why isn't it as fun?"

    I mean, it is kind of fun, but not quite what Tempest was for me. I wonder if it was modeled off of Tempest?

  12. #32
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    It's not a zerg-fest for random PUGs... Most groups can't just run past everything and survive orange or red-alert... You have to play a little smarter than that for most groups, and the raid still feels epic for most of us.

    I always find it amusing when some guy from a top-notch guild leads a CiTW PUG, and he doesn't change his tactics AT ALL, and the group gets overwhelmed by red-alert... Then the powergamer rages at everyone, quits the group, and the 11 of us get ourselves rezzed, and finish the raid moving just a LITTLE bit slower.
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    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Her breasts stick out waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to the side - something unnatural! Clearly she is the goddess of spiders!
    I'd still hit dat.

    Last night on my 4th run in a row. Our 2 healers got mana drained. They didn't pot. Just left few party members to linger as stones without even using a scroll. So the barb-I-, and Wizard used a few ress/heal scrolls. Which is fine, but I mentioned that the healers weren't potting.

    The healers got mad and told me to shut up, and later refused to raise me after Lolth's legs blew me off platform too. Which also would have been fine except it was one of our bright clerics that had Anna and kept her in middle of the party so legs would spawn next to everyone. Kid you not, literal, actual keep Ana in middle of everyone swinging. Yes, half the party got thrown off ledge twice. We completed though, the healers were good, pots get expensive. But, one can ask group.
    Last edited by Menace13; 04-06-2013 at 02:36 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    It's not a zerg-fest for random PUGs... Most groups can't just run past everything and survive orange or red-alert... You have to play a little smarter than that for most groups, and the raid still feels epic for most of us.

    I always find it amusing when some guy from a top-notch guild leads a CiTW PUG, and he doesn't change his tactics AT ALL, and the group gets overwhelmed by red-alert... Then the powergamer rages at everyone, quits the group, and the 11 of us get ourselves rezzed, and finish the raid moving just a LITTLE bit slower.
    +1

    I've been the +1 in a number of "l33t" guild runs, and they try to zerg it and their own guildies slow them down after getting stuck, thrown off, can't-get-past-crowd-on-web-bridge.

    Honestly, in most of these guilds, these guys are well geared, and it literally takes SECONDS to clear out the extra trash. I really don't understand how they are saving any time at all.
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  15. #35
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    I concur that it's hard to do CiTW, I tend to fall asleep doing it... for the following reasons : (...snip)
    routinely fall asleep during CitW.

    In fact, I've never fallen asleep playing DDO outside of this quest. I usually start to nod off at Malizoc and then make coffee or have a smoke.
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  16. #36
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    CITW is the new Tempest Spine. Its more of a 12 person quest rather than a raid.
    Except that Tempest Spine do not require a 15-quest-chain to flag. If people on a TR train could just jump into a web or two on the time it takes them to farm 20 tokens, it might be played more.

    I don't know, making it like Titan, were you need to flag once and be flagged on the next lifes?
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Idk.. Personally I love this raid. I've been out of end game for a few months now with TR's, but before I left end game I would see/join EE CITW PUGs all the time. At least 4 times a week. And these pugs rarely ever wiped. Although, that's not to say it was a cake walk either.. lol

    I think the only thing that really needs to change is drop rates for items/comms, and maybe improve Anna's pathing a bit. Also fix Lolths hit box. It is ridiculously small for melee. Especially for such a large mob.

    I think the layout isn't to confusing once you get to know what you're doing, which cuts out a ton of the extra time in the raid. I remember in the first couple weeks the raid was out, we were seeing EN completions of like 5-6 hours? And those where without bugged instances in most cases. And now, in my experience it's about a 45-1hour raid on EH/EE, with any good PUG/Group.

    But this could be just on Argo.. I don't know. Because while it's a PUG, A lot of the end game raiders on Argo PUG their raids to some extent. So we never really go without leadership, and we always seem to have a majority of players who know what they are doing, which makes it a lot smoother, and a lot more fun.
    ^This. Don't think I've ever pugged less than an EH CitW on Argo. It's to the point now where you don't need leadership, everyone runs from objective to objective without thinking.

  18. #38
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Great insight Chai! My one thought is, after your point above, "but then why isn't it as fun?"

    I mean, it is kind of fun, but not quite what Tempest was for me. I wonder if it was modeled off of Tempest?
    Fun is subjective. I just see CITW as more of a 12 person quest and less of a raid, similar to Tempest Spine. I do find it fun, just differently so than FOT.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    +1

    I've been the +1 in a number of "l33t" guild runs, and they try to zerg it and their own guildies slow them down after getting stuck, thrown off, can't-get-past-crowd-on-web-bridge.

    Honestly, in most of these guilds, these guys are well geared, and it literally takes SECONDS to clear out the extra trash. I really don't understand how they are saving any time at all.
    Those are the people who used to post that a minute wasted in the shroud is a minute that could be spent in the next shroud run right afterward, as justification for wanting it crucibled. Those characters are well liked in those guilds because they run TR2 lives in minimal time, but when it comes time to use strategy, run forward and swing weapon fails miserably.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by aristarchus1000 View Post
    Honestly, in most of these guilds, these guys are well geared, and it literally takes SECONDS to clear out the extra trash. I really don't understand how they are saving any time at all.
    I run CitW (though not as much anymore) with two types of groups. The "slower style" likes to kill all trash occasionally leaving some priestess mobs up and the other "faster style" after finishing first optional likes to red alert past what I refer to as priestess island dropping alert to yellow/orange before entering second portal and then once again running past all mobs (preferably before Ana arrives) to the staging island. Both styles end in a completion but the funny thing is if I just gave you a list of completion times you wouldn't be able to pick out which runs were done the fast or slow way. I know first hand the time saving isn't of any note but just write it off as hubris, which after end gaming in various MMOs since Everquest is something I've learned to expect.

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