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  1. #21
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    Ya... zen archery can overcome AA ranger dps fo'sho... :O

    Shoulda gone pure....
    Pure ranger is really really stupid if you want to be viable ranged DPS.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default Planning ahead...

    Looking forward to Mokune's 14th life, (on life 12 currently 2Rogue/1Ranger/4arti planned 2Rogue/7Arti/11Ranger for PL)

    So far I am planning on 9 Monk Ninja Spy 1/11 Ranger Helf Cleric Dille AA.

    3 Monk Feats + 7 Heroic and 2 Epic Feats = 13 Feats

    Dodge
    Toughness
    Stunning Fist
    PBS
    WF: Ranged
    PL Sorc or Mental Toughness
    IC: Ranged
    IC: Blunt
    PA
    Cleave
    Great Cleave
    OC
    Lightning Reflexes

    with PLENTY of room to change if needed

    Strength/Wis with level ups in Wis probably, at least 14 Con (if not more) at least 11 Dex (I ate a +3 Tome a while back but don't want to wait to level 11 for the +3 to kick in) rest in Int/Cha to balance out neg mods and get some skill points for Concentration/Balance/UMD/Jump and w/e

    11 Ranger gives all 3 TWF, PS, IPS, Diehard (lol), Manyshot, Bow Strength, Rapid Shot so Dex can be *kinda* dumped but still need a 13 Dex for PBS.

    9 Monk gives Shadowfade, Improved Evasion, Fist of Death, Ki regen sneaking (iirc)

    12 Monk and w/e else is strong but too Multiple Ability Dependant and I like lots of Feats
    I am often cynical and say mean things. It's a WAI "Feature".

  3. #23
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    Pure ranger is really really stupid if you want to be viable DPS.
    Fixed that for ya.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  4. #24
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Fixed that for ya.
    *sigh* and still wrong. If the ranger went tempest, how is that lacking DPS? It won't be top tier, but won't be lacking.

    It is combat style, not class.

  5. #25
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    *sigh* and still wrong. If the ranger went tempest, how is that lacking DPS? It won't be top tier, but won't be lacking.

    It is combat style, not class.
    From what I've read, Tempest DPS is behind barbarian, fighter, monk, and rogue, and may be behind that of artificer, and druid (maybe). It's behind that of a sorcerer, and maybe behind that of an Archmage with Magic Missiles and Shiradi. Unless I'm wrong, that would kind of define lacking, wouldn't it? Certainly in the same sense that you are describing a pure ranger archer's lacking DPS. No?
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    *sigh* and still wrong. If the ranger went tempest, how is that lacking DPS? It won't be top tier, but won't be lacking.

    It is combat style, not class.
    *blink* So a pure Sorcerer using TWF would be doing good single melee DPS, because they are using a combat style that is good at it?

    Saying that your combat style is important, not your class, ignores the fact that every class gives quite a few unique benefits. For example, Kensi Fighter's get quite a lot of damage bonuses. Tempest Rangers get a few more offhand swings, evasion, access to some useful spells, etc. Neither of which let them be competitive with real DPS classes when it comes to DPS.

    Which is not anything bashing Rangers. I am loving my Tempest ranger right now! TWF w/ evasion and self healing, and of course Furyshot, is very good for my play style. But I am not going to pretend that I deal good melee damage. OK, but far from good.

  7. #27
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    Someone asked for my "build plan". I'm still new and not very good at this, so please be gentle if I messed up real bad.

    Half Elf Cleric Dill, 32 point builds, Started at Veteran 7
    14 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 16 WIS
    1 - Ranger - Toughness (just because I like it so much)
    2 - Ranger
    3 - Ranger - Point Blank Shot
    4 - Ranger
    5 - Ranger
    6 - Ranger - Mental Toughness (I'll never use it, but I needed it for Elven Arcane Archer at 8)
    7 - Fighter - Weapon Focus Ranged (Also required for AA)
    8 - Fighter - Improved Critical Ranged
    9 - Monk - Stunning Fist (Monk), Improved Critical Bludgeon (L9 feat)
    10 - Monk - Zen Archery (so I could stay centered with bow in hand) * THIS IS WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW *
    11 - Monk (I'll probably bank this level)
    12 - Monk - Either Improved Precise Shot or Greater 2 Weapon Fighting - Not sure which
    13 - Monk (probably banked)
    14 - Monk - Dodge (Last Monk Bonus Feat, equired for Ninja Spy), This will be the level when I can finally use 10k stars as well), I also plan to have Bow of Sinew at this point
    15 - Monk - Whichever one of GTWF or IPS that I did not take at 12, Also if I stay with Cleric Dill I am 100% with Raise here and 95% on Heal Scrolls, I also get Wholeness of Body here (FINALLY)
    16 - Monk
    17 - Monk
    18 - Monk - ? - Maybe Power Attack? Not sure here.
    19 - Monk
    20 - Monk (at this point I get slaying arrows from AA). Here I get Ninja Spy 2 and Greater Mountain Stance for + 1 crit multiplier.

    All level-ups into WIS (boosts my AC and Will save, and powers Stunning Fist and 10K stars). By level 20, after all gear, enhancements, and buffs, I should be at 32-34 WIS.

    Something I am thinking about: Doing an LR for Rogue Dill instead of Cleric, for 3d6 extra sneak attack damage (making it 6d6 at level 20 with Ninja Spy 2). But this would leave me extremely vulnerable during combat, relying on friends or a hireling for heals.

    Advice?
    Last edited by stefferweffer; 04-05-2013 at 09:29 AM.

  8. #28
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    From what I've read, Tempest DPS is behind barbarian, fighter, monk, and rogue, and may be behind that of artificer, and druid (maybe). It's behind that of a sorcerer, and maybe behind that of an Archmage with Magic Missiles and Shiradi. Unless I'm wrong, that would kind of define lacking, wouldn't it? Certainly in the same sense that you are describing a pure ranger archer's lacking DPS. No?
    When you start to rig in EDs as you just have you change conditions again to make more variations to something simple.
    You want definitive answers when given the variations this game allow, there are none.

    Do take some more time to think through what was stated as I know you are not that dumb, Seph. Ranger tempst can offer solid DPS. You've just stated solid is lacking if it is not top tier. I do not agree with that statement.

  9. #29
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Advice?
    Something I am thinking about: Doing an LR for Rogue Dill instead of Cleric, for 3d6 extra sneak attack damage (making it 6d6 at level 20 with Ninja Spy 2). But this would leave me extremely vulnerable during combat, relying on friends or a hireling for heals.
    There are certainly big advantages to each of them. You might want to take a look at the Epic Destinies before you get to level twenty so that you can plan out a route for yourself. It is possible to splash in some self healing that way, reducing your dependance on Cleric Dili and outside sources.
    Also, you only need a feat swap to change your Dili feat, not a full LR. If you haven't used it yet this life, you can get a free one by doing Lockina's quest in the Marketplace.

    18 - Monk - ? - Maybe Power Attack? Not sure here.
    Power Attack is certainly a nice bonus to your damage when you are using unarmed, but you do not have enough feats left to take full advantage of PA, Cleave, and Great Cleave in order to get Overwhelming Critical. Nor do I think that you will have enough STR for it, even with tomes.
    Have you considered Precision instead? It remains active when you swap to a bow as well, which PA will not. And especially when combined with the Ninja Spy, Rogue Dili, and items it will allow you to deliver your full damage more reliably.

  10. #30
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    Precision is a good one I had not thought of, and as you suggest I like that it works for both melee and ranged. Thanks for that suggestion.

  11. #31
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Do take some more time to think through what was stated as I know you are not that dumb, Seph. Ranger tempst can offer solid DPS. You've just stated solid is lacking if it is not top tier. I do not agree with that statement.
    It is nice that this unrelated argument is keeping this advice thread bumped. But it seems like the only real point of contention is what qualifies as "solid DPS". Even with EDs figured in on top of everything else, starting with a base of Fighter or Barbarian is going to leave a Tempest Ranger quite far behind if you are only considering damage per minute. At least Tempests are in a better situation than they have been in the past, with relatively few different enemy types in the current end-game content.

    Tempest Ranger's melee DPS may be considered "solid" to you, but that is a very subjective assessment. And it is undeniable that they are at a relative disadvantage, if you are only comparing the melee DPS component rather than everything that the class brings. The only thing that seems to be in contention is what term to use.

  12. #32
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default Doh! Math is hard! (and remembering Zen Archery ftm)

    Quote Originally Posted by Feralthyrtiaq View Post
    Looking forward to Mokune's 14th life, (on life 12 currently 2Rogue/1Ranger/4arti planned 2Rogue/7Arti/11Ranger for PL)

    So far I am planning on 9 Monk Ninja Spy 1/11 Ranger Helf Cleric Dille AA.

    3 Monk Feats + 7 Heroic and 2 Epic Feats = 12 Feats

    Dodge
    Toughness
    Stunning Fist
    PBS
    WF: Ranged
    PL Sorc or Mental Toughness
    IC: Ranged
    IC: Blunt
    PA
    Cleave
    Great Cleave
    Zen Archery

    with PLENTY of room to change if needed

    Strength/Wis with level ups in Wis probably, at least 14 Con (if not more) at least 11 Dex (I ate a +3 Tome a while back but don't want to wait to level 11 for the +3 to kick in) rest in Int/Cha to balance out neg mods and get some skill points for Concentration/Balance/UMD/Jump and w/e

    11 Ranger gives all 3 TWF, PS, IPS, Diehard (lol), Manyshot, Bow Strength, Rapid Shot so Dex can be *kinda* dumped but still need a 13 Dex for PBS.

    9 Monk gives Shadowfade, Improved Evasion, Fist of Death, Ki regen sneaking (iirc)

    12 Monk and w/e else is strong but too Multiple Ability Dependant and I like lots of Feats
    Fixed it because my errors bothered me LOL
    I am often cynical and say mean things. It's a WAI "Feature".

  13. #33
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    When you start to rig in EDs as you just have you change conditions again to make more variations to something simple.
    You want definitive answers when given the variations this game allow, there are none.

    Do take some more time to think through what was stated as I know you are not that dumb, Seph. Ranger tempst can offer solid DPS. You've just stated solid is lacking if it is not top tier. I do not agree with that statement.
    What does "soild DPS" mean? I appreciate your assessment of my intelligence, and it's reciprocated, but you're throwing around a phrase with no real definition. We can ignore the ED addition I made at the end, but I was showing that rangers are not top tier DPS, which you concede. The only question is how you divvy up tiers. I'd argue that Tempest isn't even in the top two tiers, which are made up of some combination of fighter, barbarian, rogue, monk, and possible artificer, and sorcerer. So, tier 3 DPS...what is that, if not lacking? Do you have to be a wizard swinging a light mace to be considered to have lacking DPS?

    Certainly, a pure ranger is behind a Tempest in terms of DPS, but the difference between a Tempest and an AA is less than the difference between a Tempest and a Frenzied Berserker.

    -------------------------
    On topic, THOTHdha said about the same things I was going to regarding the dilettante feat swap and Precision.

    Weighing whether or not to swap to the Rogue dilly, I'd say that it depends on a few things: how much you can rely on being in a party with a decent healer, what difficulty of content you're running regularly, and how often you're actually using melee.

    On the last point, if you're meleeing less than half the time, you may want to consider dropping Improved Critical: Blunt and replacing it with Skill Focus: UMD, then spending 2 ranks/level from now to 20 (and a couple of extra ranks somewhere in there) to get your UMD up to 11.

    11 ranks + 4 Greater Heroism +3 skill focus +2 Good Luck +3 (+6 Cha item) +1 (+2 Insightful Cha) +3 UMD item (competence) will get you to 27. Not great, but that's hardly everything you can do...+1 (+2 Cha tome), +1 (+8 Cha item), +1 (+3 Insightful Cha +1 exceptional Cha), +3 UMD item (enhancement) gets you to 33, which is pretty good. Epic levels add another +5, which puts you at 95% on Heal scrolls. Not great in the short-term, but later in your character's life it can be valuable. Now, that looks like a lot of extra gear, but with all the augment slots you can have available, it shouldn't be too difficult to fit most of that stuff in fairly easily.

    Personally, I think it's a little bit of a stretch on a no-Cha, half-rank character, but it's an option.

    If you're running with a healer a lot, and doing Normal predominantly, you shouldn't need to worry too much about having a healing option that's stronger than CSW potions. Plus, if you're desperate for it, there are some pretty good healing options from epic destinies. Also, being a half-elf monk means that you'll have access to a fair amount of healing amp through enhancements. Add some items to that, and even mediocre healing options should be going long for you.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  14. #34
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Something I am thinking about: Doing an LR for Rogue Dill instead of Cleric
    You do not need to do an LR to swap HE dilly feat as long as your base stat was high enuogh @ lvl 1. Just talk to Fred.

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