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  1. #41
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    They may not be trying to weed out people like Talon.
    But they are succeeding in doing so nonetheless.
    Conversely, I've never actually encountered anyone who matches the description of the people that they are trying to exclude Whoever it is gets talked about a lot though.

    What is ironic is that simply by virtue of posting as "BYOH" they are excluding the party-friendly non-healers.

    The team-oriented and considerate types are the ones that see the "BYOH" label and think "OK. I don't think that I can self-heal through that quest so I'm not going to join a group that only wants people who can."

    It is the non-party-friendly, and either not nice, or incompetent people who will join a BYOH group even if they don't bring their own healing.

    Thus skewing the perception of others by the BYOH crowd further from the actual state of affairs.
    I really am glad you have not run into any of the people that get talked about on the forums. Really, truly glad. If I were a less stubborn person, I would have quit long ago due to those people. And there is a fresh crop every school holiday. I am NOT saying these are kids, simply that that is when I see the fresh crops. If you have not played a cleric yet, go roll one up on a new server(so no-one knows you) and play one from scratch. You will meet way too many of those people.

    I know BYOH feels exclusionary(is that a word?) to some people who are fairly self-sufficient, and play in a party-friendly manner. I don't know what the solution is. I would like a widely accepted word or phrase that explains that we do not want demanding mana-sponges in party. But, "Bring your own pots. Play like you have good sense. Act like you were raised right. Don't whine or cuss out the divines if you do something dumb and get your fool self killed." just does not fit in the comment box on LFM's. If you have any suggestions, I will be glad to hear them.
    Last edited by susiedupfer; 04-02-2013 at 09:38 AM.
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  2. #42
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    "Do your best to survive" might be what youre looking for
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  3. #43
    Community Member Mastikator's Avatar
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    Oh for firetruck sake people, byoh is about as anti-teamwork/anti-social as bring your own beer is anti-alcohol. It just means you can't demand that someone else drops what they're doing to hold your hand.
    That which does not kill you gives you experience points.

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  4. #44
    Founder AnubisPrime's Avatar
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    Every group is different, but when I'm on my barb and there is no cleric AND I'm in a PUG of unknowns (folks I haven't played with). I rely on pots and silver flame pots. My character is lvl 16 and has always been pretty durable, but if I start taking a beating I usually announce that I am backing off to stand in a corner and heal.

    When there is a cleric I am a little looser with fighting, though I do top myself off and if I start taking a beating I will try to stay in the fray if the cleric is mass healing. Otherwise I back away so I'm not a mana-sponge and do some self healing.

    My main since starting DDO many years ago was (and is) a cleric, so I understand what it takes to heal.

    As that cleric I am never shy to yell out to any one party member that I can't keep up if their health bar looks like a flashing red and black bar. Or I'll announce "Mass healing will be on xxxxxx. If you're not near xxxxxx or not in my aura then you are not going to be healed."

    I think communication IN GENERAL is the key. BYOH can mean many different degrees of anything. It's whatever the group describes and decides.

    If a particular party member doesn't get it, he/she will be hearing lot's of DINGs after yelling "HEEEEAAAAL PLZ". Those folks can't be fixed they just take their places in the game as backpack stones.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    1. What level do cure serious potions stop being an acceptable answer for self healing? (Below this level, anyone can byoh).
    ~10ish
    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    2. Is it reasonable to expect epic level adventures to have access to destinies?
    No. Epic levels are free, destinies are not. Also, having access to destinies doesn't guarantee I have unlocked a self-healing ability, nor that I have earned the fate points to twist it into any build.
    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    3. What classes don't have acceptable access to some type of self healing?
    A more accurate question would be: What classes don't have acceptable access to sufficient self healing? To answer that: I hate SF pots, so I would say barbs/fighters, maybe rangers but I haven't played one yet to say with any certainty. Beyond that it gets case specific, ie: WF AMwizzy can, fleshy AMwizzy can't, etc...
    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    4. Do elite quest difficulty LFM's have an implied level of gear/player ability?
    No. IMO anyone who answers "yes" is making assumptions, as there is no rule/criteria/barrier preventing Joe Anybody from posting an lfm for elite quests, or joining yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    5. What builds make it through the first 4 gates that would be useful contributors in a dedicated healer group and for what levels are they not BYOH capable.
    lol Define "useful." My cleric would prefer a non-self healing barb in group vs. a barb gimped to use umd or running around w/ -10 to stats & saves. Sure the latter could still provide dps, but not as much as the non-self healer.

    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    I would like to understand who BYOH excludes.
    Simply put, it excludes players who are too new/inexperienced to have the gear/build expertise to design a toon for it.

    It excludes players who prefer learning the game for themselves rather than copying forum builds - and are still in the learning process.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    "All characters have multiple abilities when it comes to fighting that benefits the parties ability to complete a quest, how many are YOU using?"

  6. #46
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    I would like to understand who BYOH excludes.
    BYOH excludes anyone who chooses not to join BYOH groups.

    That's a much broader range of people than it's actually trying to exclude (i.e. people who aren't willing to take responsibility for their own red bar), but fundamentally, it's the only answer that matters. People who like BYOH will join BYOH groups. People who don't like BYOH won't join BYOH groups. That's a good thing.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
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  7. #47
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silinteresting View Post

    my guild mate and real life friend has a level 24 toon with no epic destinies are you all saying he is exempt from all
    of your groups?.
    No, only from byoh groups (if he don't got healing) and from ALL EPIC ELITES.
    EE is not a place for someone without destinies.
    Period.

    hes unemployed has no money to pile into this game and what tp he earns from in game he is buying ebberon content with. what epic gear he has comes from farming he has done or from the realms which i have given him so its not like hes not prepaired to the best of his ability.
    This is irrelevant.

    as for healing he relies on the good will of the people he plays with, as most lfms are begining to be byoh i guess he will be mostly running solo, sad state for a game dont you think.
    No I don't think that people are not forced to play with everyone is sad.

  8. #48
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Oh for firetruck sake people, byoh is about as anti-teamwork/anti-social as bring your own beer is anti-alcohol. It just means you can't demand that someone else drops what they're doing to hold your hand.
    I am putting this in my signature if I can (or else just saving it)...it's the best way I've seen to tear down the anti-BYOH argument of "BYOH is anti-teamwork!"

    Have a +1 on me.
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  9. #49
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    How fun! I love magazine quizzes

    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    ...
    1. What level do cure serious potions stop being an acceptable answer for self healing? (Below this level, anyone can byoh).
    ...
    As soon as you can reliably throw Heal/Reconstruct scrolls (don't leave out our WF brethren!)... for most of my toons, that's level 10+.

    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    ...
    2. Is it reasonable to expect epic level adventurers to have access to destinies? (There are level 1 twists that provide healing)
    ...
    Reasonable? Yes. Sad? Definitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    ...
    3. What classes don't have acceptable access to some type of self healing?
    ...
    None - some just have easier access than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    ...
    4. Do elite quest difficulty LFM's have an implied level of gear/player ability?
    ...
    If you mean Heroic Elite, all I ask is that you don't release. Anyone can die on accident, but losing the bonus XP for no re-entry takes a conscious choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    ...
    5. What builds make it through the first 4 gates that would be useful contributors in a dedicated healer group and for what levels are they not BYOH capable.
    ...
    You are presuming that builds exist that are not BYOH capable - but my definition of BYOH includes everyone, even pure barbarian half-orcs.

    But that's because my definition of BYOH doesn't preclude me from throwing Heals/Reconstructs on teammates who, well, play as a team.

    So my answer to your question is "all of them, and no levels".

    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    ...
    Once we identify the BYOH challenged... perhaps we can help provide self-help for them.
    If by "BYOH challenged" you mean people who are incapable of healing themselves, I believe the problem is more about game play expectations than about a lack of resources.

    Some people think that everyone's game experience should revolve around them, and has nothing to do with the build they are playing.
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  10. #50
    Community Member susiedupfer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standal View Post
    1. Level 10-12 sounds good. In general, the builds that are going to have problems with self heals will start having problems earlier.

    2. Epic players should have EDs, but they may not have maxed a primary or have twist points. Also the builds that have trouble with self healing will not work well with the healing twists. They're going to need damage or saves instead since the heal twists don't heal enough to be useful to them.

    3. Pure or lightly splashed barbs have the most difficulty with self heals. Pure fighters next. I view Silver Flame pots as a last resort heal because of their huge downside to saves. If I'm drinking SF pots, somebody is not playing well. Maybe me, maybe the healer. Even in situations where I don't need to reflex and will saves, SF pots don't stack well enough to be my main source of healing.

    4. In general, I will not enter a BYOH elite unless I have enough experience of the quest to know that if everyone contributes at my level we will succeed.

    5. Barbs and DPS fighters are still very useful in groups with healers. The divine generally delivers much more DPS/spell point channeling mana though the DPS toons red bars than attempting to do direct damage or crowd control with their poor DCs. Also, the more full DPS toons the better. With aura and masses, it doesn't cost the divine any more to do twice or three times the damage.
    Here, I have helpfully emphasized what I am referring to. Also, you never said you do not join BYOH groups. Had I had that information up front, I never would have responded to you the way I did.

    However, in #5, you make a statement that is impossible for you to back up with any data whatsoever. You can't see what DPS someone else is doing. You have an opinion, and are judging from the enemy's red bar, but you don't actually see what they are doing. And, you sound like just another mana-sponge wanting to justify that attitude with the (old, tired, worn-through) message of, "your blue bar belongs to my red bar."
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  11. #51
    The Hatchery DarkForte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Oh for firetruck sake people, byoh is about as anti-teamwork/anti-social as bring your own beer is anti-alcohol. It just means you can't demand that someone else drops what they're doing to hold your hand.
    You win this thread. +1
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  12. #52
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Would this be a good place to list Talonkage's standard healing load out?

    100 Heal scrolls
    100 CSW pots
    2 CCW wands
    20 Silver Flame pots
    20 Lesser Silver Flame pots

    10 Raise Dead scrolls
    (2 GS weps with Raise clickies)

    100 Restoration scrolls
    100 Remove Blindness pots
    100 Remove Curse pots
    100 Lesser Restoration pots

    1 Wand of Remove Disease (if I ever use it up, I will replace with pots. )

    Hmm.. maybe that is all.

    Everything is guild vender bought, so I do lack the means of removing someone else's curses.... I might start carrying a wand for this, but my inventory "is" kinda full ya know.


    I could.... carry scrolls of Mass Cure Moderate wounds, and/or Resurrection.
    Just haven't felt the desire to spend the plat on those.

    Not like people expect the guy with the Ranger icon to be healing them anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  13. #53
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkForte View Post
    You win this thread. +1
    ditto. byoh means don't be a...er.. something case.
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  14. #54
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    anyone can go half elf and take cleric dilletante.
    if you choose to go half orc instead for the extra dps you have to pay for this choice...

    you can't have everything or there would be no point in having other races/classes...we'd all just roll up self healing half-orc barbarians.

  15. #55
    The Hatchery Nedime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I am putting this in my signature if I can (or else just saving it)...it's the best way I've seen to tear down the anti-BYOH argument of "BYOH is anti-teamwork!"

    Have a +1 on me.
    You beat me on this grrrr. Maybe we can share sig ?
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gphysalis View Post
    1. ~10

    3. None. After cures serious potions no longer provide the needed healing, silver flame potions do.
    You state that Cure Serious potions are no longer effective after level 10. And that seems quite true.

    But then you expect everyone to have Silver Flame potions, which the earliest that you can possibly achieve the 400 favor for is by running the 29 lowest level Silver Flame quests on Elite, and then the 30th one one whatever. Which goes up to level 15 quests. So you are making the claim that a level 10 character should be running the Necro 4 quests, on Elite, using CSW potions for self healing, in order to have viable self healing at level 11? .....

  17. #57
    Community Member Seb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    1. What level do cure serious potions stop being an acceptable answer for self healing? (Below this level, anyone can byoh).
    2. Is it reasonable to expect epic level adventurers to have access to destinies? (There are level 1 twists that provide healing)
    3. What classes don't have acceptable access to some type of self healing?
    4. Do elite quest difficulty LFM's have an implied level of gear/player ability?
    5. What builds make it through the first 4 gates that would be useful contributors in a dedicated healer group and for what levels are they not BYOH capable.
    1. 10-14 (I gradually stop using them when my UMD chance on heal scrolls improves)
    2. Yes. I've only seen a couple people in epic without destinies and their characters have been much less useful than characters with destinies.
    3. None. Barbarians and Fighters are the hardest classes to self-heal but it is still possible without multiclassing.
    4. Yes, but I will accept someone who says they are new and trying to learn if I know the rest of the party is capable. Be educated or educable. The only people who earn a squelch are the willfully ignorant.

    When I put BYOH in an LFM it generally means "In progress without a divine." or more specifically "I am doing this quest and I am not waiting around for divines. I would appreciate it if your priorities were (i) to avoid dying (ii) to avoid raising dungeon alert, and (iii) to help complete the quest."
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  18. #58
    The Hatchery Nedime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    You state that Cure Serious potions are no longer effective after level 10. And that seems quite true.

    But then you expect everyone to have Silver Flame potions, which the earliest that you can possibly achieve the 400 favor for is by running the 29 lowest level Silver Flame quests on Elite, and then the 30th one one whatever. Which goes up to level 15 quests. So you are making the claim that a level 10 character should be running the Necro 4 quests, on Elite, using CSW potions for self healing, in order to have viable self healing at level 11? .....
    Okay Imma say it clearly.

    If you're an adventurer, DO NOT GO BYOH on your first life. Discover the game at different difficulties, with different people. Even with hires, yeah they can be okay situationally. Then TR once or twice. You'll notice that while your toon has gained power and gear the quests remained the same. And you will know them by heart. On an "easy life" (bard, divine, WF arcane/artie) get the favor to stock enough SF pots for the rough lives.

    After that it is a routine : each life has its necro grinding that assures you to have the favor to stock SF pots.

    Repeat until you find a better game than DDO.
    Succubus pretty ... too bad she try to kill us
    Lewela FvS (5th life)-Aezechiel Sorc (3rd life)-Usuldur Monk (5th life)-Larsenkarden Cleric (2nd life)-Punkcanard Eva-Artie (2nd life)-Kakophonyc Virtuoso/Fighter
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by susiedupfer View Post
    I really am glad you have not run into any of the people that get talked about on the forums. Really, truly glad. If I were a less stubborn person, I would have quit long ago due to those people. And there is a fresh crop every school holiday. I am NOT saying these are kids, simply that that is when I see the fresh crops. If you have not played a cleric yet, go roll one up on a new server(so no-one knows you) and play one from scratch. You will meet way too many of those people.
    Two Clerics, one Favoured Soul, and two lives worth of caster Druids where I'll generally fill a healer role if there isn't already one.
    Haven't yet run into one.

    That is why I object to the characterisation of anyone without the TP, game experience, or preference to create a self-sufficient toon as these obnoxious, self-entitled jerk caricatures who demand exclusive use of a divine character's spellpoints and will then play in a manner extremely wasteful of them.

    It is just as untrue as painting BYOH enthusiasts as elitist and arrogant egotists who would prefer to solo a quest alongside five others rather than work as a team, refuse to help anyone less uber than their clique out, and actively try to drive the newer and less experienced people away rather than explaining or showing them to be better in a realistic fashion.

    Neither is true, and neither promotes actual constructive discussion of some of the real issues.

    I know BYOH feels exclusionary(is that a word?) to some people who are fairly self-sufficient, and play in a party-friendly manner. I don't know what the solution is. I would like a widely accepted word or phrase that explains that we do not want demanding mana-sponges in party. But, "Bring your own pots. Play like you have good sense. Act like you were raised right. Don't whine or cuss out the divines if you do something dumb and get your fool self killed." just does not fit in the comment box on LFM's. If you have any suggestions, I will be glad to hear them.
    The more detail the better IMO. "BYOH" means many different things to different people: there is no accepted definition. "Be self-sufficient" might be the best thing to say.
    For example one of my clerics most definitely does 'bring her own heals', but is most definitely not self-sufficient either. I wouldn't take her on a BYOH run even if I were inclined to do them.

    The reason that I don't generally join BYOH groups on my self-sufficient toons is simply that most of them are also zerg in style, which I find less fun.

    Note that there is nothing in itself wrong with a "BYOH" group, any more than there is with a "Must be German", "Blue bar or GTFO", "Know it", "Strongs only" or any other kind of qualifier that the group leader decides to put on their requirements. It is entirely their right to invite who they want, and people who can't heal through the quest should not join a BYOH group any more than a non-german should join a "Must be German" group.

    What is damaging are the attitudes that the split seems to foster. Even in an ostensibly constructive post, the OP implied condescension, and likewise with Mastikator's comment that people are enamoured of, despite it misrepresenting some of the actual issues for the sake of pith.

  20. #60
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    when i am on one of my healing toons and make a byoh group i always and with that always exclude barbarians to the rule..

    anyone who has ever rolled a 36 point 4.4 mill exp before the bravery bonus and tome stuf barbarian knows exactly why hehe..

    if you don't know the vicious part + healing is almost impossible.. its like

    hit

    hit

    hit

    chuck pot

    hit hit hit

    chuck pot

    being hi

    chuck pot

    chuck pot

    hit..


    for the rest you can get your own heals I only feel bad for barbarians.

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