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  1. #121
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    There's more to consider than just success rates.

    There's the SP pool, which under most builds, wizard lags signifigantly behind sorcerer. If he can only land his /best/ stuff 75% of the time, that means at least 25% of his SP is burned to no effect. And that's if he's only using his best stuff.

    I know on my wizard there have been plenty of times that I made it to the shrine on fumes. Now, toss in having to use spells like energy drain or enervation (which aren't cheap) to debuff saves on /each mob/ and the costs start to skyrocket rapidly. I'd rather not see the wizard game become 'do you have enough SP pots to complete the quest? No? Then off to the DDO store with you, or else you're piking!'

    If SP conservation wasn't an issue, I'd be fine with concepts like 75% success rate. But the entire reason wizards super-specialize comes from the fact that sp conservation is beaten into us throughout the game. Seeking the no-fail DC isn't about being uber, or overpowering content. It's about not burning 150sp when 50 could do the job.

  2. #122
    Community Member wolflordnexus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Well, the games not static like that. EGH didn't exist until a little while ago. Other Epic quests from MoTu and the other FR quests are not nearly as hard for DC casters as EGH, at least from what I've seen. The issue didn't really show up until the latest quests. Which is a regular trend at Turbine. You have to find some middle ground. Otherwise Turbine won't budge. The prevailing attitude is "just TR into whatever works until the next batch of quests".

    I don't like it either, but that is the way it goes. Just saying it's not fun isn't going to do much. Do you know how often Turbine has heard that over the years? A lot.

    Tyrande has a suggestion that has a sort of middle ground. That's the way to get things done. Because as far as the "it worked for these other quests, why not here" argument, it won't do much. Because the counter-argument is always that the abilities haven't changed, just that the next bunch of quests are no longer as ideal. So you either boycott the latest "content" or you change your character.

    I know. I boycotted TRing myself. I didn't like it. Still don't. And I had to pull teeth to be able to make my characters viable without it. I could argue all day how it was "unfun" to have to restart a character and redo lower level quests repeatedly just to be able to be decent in endgame content. It pretty much fell on deaf ears.
    I am absolutley of the opinion that they should not balance any content around TR Mechanics

  3. #123
    Community Member lamborgini's Avatar
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    Spell versatility in all classes has gone down the crapper since they have made enemies stronger. Now not only do they have extremely high saves vs dc's, but also have evasion or improved evasion plus epic ward which prevents pale masters from even thinking about harming epics with their inate necrotic SLA's. They have turned this game into somewhat of a joke for people who prefer flavor builds, and forced people into having to mostly rely on pure melee and spell dps, along with heal bots. While there are some flavor builds that still make it in the world, they have greatly dumbed down the idea of versatility as a whole.

  4. #124
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    If it stays in its current state, noone will want to play DC casters, and once they nerf Shiradi for casters, there will be a max exodus away from wizards...
    When they make it so Shiradi no longer procs on spells, casters will fall of the face of t he Earth, well at least wizards.

    Note that I say "when" not "if", they never intended it to be the best way for a dps caster to be useful in EE so I'm sure they'll "fix it".

    They'll add a:
    Devs: "Don't worry in the enhancement pass you'll get abilities to mitigate the loss of power!"
    Players: "Sweet, when are we getting the pass?"
    Devs: "Oh about half a year *after* we break casters"
    Players: "... I'm not sure what to say to that".
    "Pike or do not. There is no lag."

  5. #125
    Community Member lamborgini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    There's more to consider than just success rates.

    There's the SP pool, which under most builds, wizard lags signifigantly behind sorcerer. If he can only land his /best/ stuff 75% of the time, that means at least 25% of his SP is burned to no effect. And that's if he's only using his best stuff.

    I know on my wizard there have been plenty of times that I made it to the shrine on fumes. Now, toss in having to use spells like energy drain or enervation (which aren't cheap) to debuff saves on /each mob/ and the costs start to skyrocket rapidly. I'd rather not see the wizard game become 'do you have enough SP pots to complete the quest? No? Then off to the DDO store with you, or else you're piking!'

    If SP conservation wasn't an issue, I'd be fine with concepts like 75% success rate. But the entire reason wizards super-specialize comes from the fact that sp conservation is beaten into us throughout the game. Seeking the no-fail DC isn't about being uber, or overpowering content. It's about not burning 150sp when 50 could do the job.
    This i can highly agree with considering the change to spell power was the devs way of helping to ease the burden of depending on metas to kill everything, however now with the enemies saves vs DC and high HP's making it all the same as before. Now you pretty much still have to rely on metas to give more oomph, because alot of the times you are either hitting for half damage or no damage due to enemies saving and either suffering little dmg or none thanks to evasion or improved evasion or simply epic spell ward.

  6. #126
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamborgini View Post
    Spell versatility in all classes has gone down the crapper since they have made enemies stronger. Now not only do they have extremely high saves vs dc's, but also have evasion or improved evasion plus epic ward which prevents pale masters from even thinking about harming epics with their inate necrotic SLA's. They have turned this game into somewhat of a joke for people who prefer flavor builds, and forced people into having to mostly rely on pure melee and spell dps, along with heal bots. While there are some flavor builds that still make it in the world, they have greatly dumbed down the idea of versatility as a whole.
    +1 to you good sir for putting it concisely what I am trying to say
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  7. #127
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamborgini View Post
    Spell versatility in all classes has gone down the crapper since they have made enemies stronger. Now not only do they have extremely high saves vs dc's, but also have evasion or improved evasion plus epic ward which prevents pale masters from even thinking about harming epics with their inate necrotic SLA's. They have turned this game into somewhat of a joke for people who prefer flavor builds, and forced people into having to mostly rely on pure melee and spell dps, along with heal bots. While there are some flavor builds that still make it in the world, they have greatly dumbed down the idea of versatility as a whole.
    My PM has gone from using insta-kills on trash and swtiching to dps spells on mobs immune/bosses to spamming DI's Energy Burst and jumping around while it's on cool down... It's a joke, a sad, sad joke.

    To be of any use a wizard needs to be a poor man's sorc, I still don't see the point of Turbine.

    Why balance classes in one of the few MMO's that has no viable PvP? Are the kobolds/giants/pit fiends writing angry letters at Turbine or something?
    "Pike or do not. There is no lag."

  8. #128
    Community Member anivaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeafeningWhisper View Post
    My PM has gone from using insta-kills on trash and swtiching to dps spells on mobs immune/bosses to spamming DI's Energy Burst and jumping around while it's on cool down... It's a joke, a sad, sad joke.

    To be of any use a wizard needs to be a poor man's sorc, I still don't see the point of Turbine.

    Why balance classes in one of the few MMO's that has no viable PvP? Are the kobolds/giants/pit fiends writing angry letters at Turbine or something?
    Turbine had to listen to all the whiners that only play melees on the forums that were b\/tt hurt about losing in the kill count to PMs. What I don't understand is why they chose to nerf the DCs at the same time they finally gave melees equivalent power through EDs. Melee and casters could have finally been happy with each other, but that was ruined by taking away a casters versatility and making DCs all or nothing...
    Cannith - Sorrion - Glassbones - Galodon - Farsnipe
    Sarlona - Glassbones

  9. #129
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    NOw, see here. You are doing just the same thing that you are complaining about. Not saying that things are all rigth as they stand, but you ARE doing the same thing you hate melees for.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  10. #130
    Community Member silence383's Avatar
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    Been saying it for years. Screaming for nerfs will only hurt you in the long run. One update nerf one class empower another. People complain. Then next update nerf the enhanced class and empower the nerfed class. Up--down. Balance is what is needed not taking away from one giving to another..then turn around and do the opposite next update. The people who scream this class is too powerful please nerf them..what comes around goes around ..then they get nerfed and po'd next time around...The answer is not nerfing one or the other..it is bringing balance to each.

    Just saying it has become very imbalanced..and I am a paley to..most my friends wont even play them just banking thier toons hoping for a better deal (when they basically switch again)..which enhancement pass should bring..with a load of new problems. I still play my paley I love him.

    Am beginning to think they do not want balance after all these years..it would make to much sense. And as I have said before remove kill count..that is half the problem.
    Last edited by silence383; 03-30-2013 at 01:58 AM.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    OK...all I keep hearing is people saying "guess you need to adapt to the way the game changed". You know what!? Did you have fun playing that PM that could enchant? Did you spend time grinding to make him as powerful as possible? WOuld you LIKE to have him be viable again? If your answers are yes to any of these then stop trolling and admit that Turbine is really risking losing a lot of players by taking that fun and versatile kind of build away...
    The point of any carrot/stick online game is to get you to keep grinding. I have fun in the game, I'm not going to play a build that has been nerfed because I have other builds or have fun bulding other builds. If you put everything into one character then yah you will be disappointed, but let's be realistic, that one character we are really talking about here dominated quests and needed to be nerfed. So no, I don't mind at all that I can't blow thru quests anymore, it actually made me a bad teammate who took others in the quest for granted. Maybe some of you were omnibenevolent casters that aided everyone along but I was drunk on power and I am glad that character got nerfed.

    So no my answer really isn't yes to any of those. It has made me a better ddo comunity member. Usually in these posts we hear, but we are a team. Well I think EE has finally got it right, you need to be a team.

  12. #132
    Community Member silence383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uhtred_Stark View Post
    The point of any carrot/stick online game is to get you to keep grinding. I have fun in the game, I'm not going to play a build that has been nerfed because I have other builds or have fun bulding other builds. If you put everything into one character then yah you will be disappointed, but let's be realistic, that one character we are really talking about here dominated quests and needed to be nerfed. So no, I don't mind at all that I can't blow thru quests anymore, it actually made me a bad teammate who took others in the quest for granted. Maybe some of you were omnibenevolent casters that aided everyone along but I was drunk on power and I am glad that character got nerfed.

    So no my answer really isn't yes to any of those. It has made me a better ddo comunity member. Usually in these posts we hear, but we are a team. Well I think EE has finally got it right, you need to be a team.
    Agree on team. At the same time though why should people not be able to enjoy the class they want to play. We come to play a game being something we want to play. It should not force you to play something else until your favorite class gets fixed. That's the problem everyone should enjoy the game how they like to play and it's becoming not enjoyable for some. Some do not want to play melee..some do not want to play casters. Why make them shelf one as if they are being punished for playing something they love. It is just a mess of..I do not like someone else's class please nerf them.
    Last edited by silence383; 03-30-2013 at 02:12 AM.

  13. #133
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anivaj View Post
    Turbine had to listen to all the whiners that only play melees on the forums that were b\/tt hurt about losing in the kill count to PMs. What I don't understand is why they chose to nerf the DCs at the same time they finally gave melees equivalent power through EDs. Melee and casters could have finally been happy with each other, but that was ruined by taking away a casters versatility and making DCs all or nothing...
    Now you're making the same mistake that others have made for years. Turbine doesn't really listen to anyone. They judge how powerful a class is by how easy they solo content. They want to see some cooperation and balance. They're just not very good at it. And a lot of nerfs are them just trying to make content "tougher", so it's really a proxy nerf.

    Don't blame the current state of affairs on "bum-hurt melees". People on all sides call for nerfs, even the ones who play the class that they want nerfed, because everyone has a different idea of fun and balanced play. There was a time when Casters were just buffers and little else. Like I said, the penduluum keeps swinging. You're seeing it through the eyes of someone who's been playing for what, 3 years? I've been playing a bit over six years. I've seen every class dominate at one point or other. Yes, even Paladins, because at one time they could use Heavy Armor and Evasion. Couple that with their saves and the fact that Fighters werenot far ahead in Strength and Tactics DCs and you can see why at one time they were OP. They did pretty well until PrEs skewed everything in another way. And even then Paladins weren't too bad off because the "dps PrE" for Paladins was very relevant when most of the endgame were considered Evil Outsiders. Then new content came. Evil Outsiders were few and far between and the Paladin's fell behind. Paladin's are now pretty pigeon-holed into Tanks; the only way not to be pigeon-holed is with a lot of grinding and rebuilding. So welcome to the club. Sucks, I know.

    Now instead of getting all bent out of shape and blaming everyone, start coming up with solutions you can present. Make suggestions. Don't "whine" that it was all better before. Turbine hears that all the time. They have to be pretty numb to it. And for everyone like us who don't want to TR and essentially redo their character, there are probably 5 more that are willing. We aren't special. We are just wallets. And we're a dime a dozen.

    The only way to truly be heard is to make some sort of constructive suggestion. Calling the Devs out will accomplish nothing. It'll just get you ignored. And I think some middle ground can be found. But this thread will just get ignored if you just start "whining about the whiners".

  14. #134
    Community Member silence383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Now you're making the same mistake that others have made for years. Turbine doesn't really listen to anyone. They judge how powerful a class is by how easy they solo content. They want to see some cooperation and balance. They're just not very good at it. And a lot of nerfs are them just trying to make content "tougher", so it's really a proxy nerf.

    Don't blame the current state of affairs on "bum-hurt melees". People on all sides call for nerfs, even the ones who play the class that they want nerfed, because everyone has a different idea of fun and balanced play. There was a time when Casters were just buffers and little else. Like I said, the penduluum keeps swinging. You're seeing it through the eyes of someone who's been playing for what, 3 years? I've been playing a bit over six years. I've seen every class dominate at one point or other. Yes, even Paladins, because at one time they could use Heavy Armor and Evasion. Couple that with their saves and the fact that Fighters werenot far ahead in Strength and Tactics DCs and you can see why at one time they were OP. They did pretty well until PrEs skewed everything in another way. And even then Paladins weren't too bad off because the "dps PrE" for Paladins was very relevant when most of the endgame were considered Evil Outsiders. Then new content came. Evil Outsiders were few and far between and the Paladin's fell behind. Paladin's are now pretty pigeon-holed into Tanks; the only way not to be pigeon-holed is with a lot of grinding and rebuilding. So welcome to the club. Sucks, I know.

    Now instead of getting all bent out of shape and blaming everyone, start coming up with solutions you can present. Make suggestions. Don't "whine" that it was all better before. Turbine hears that all the time. They have to be pretty numb to it. And for everyone like us who don't want to TR and essentially redo their character, there are probably 5 more that are willing. We aren't special. We are just wallets. And we're a dime a dozen.

    The only way to truly be heard is to make some sort of constructive suggestion. Calling the Devs out will accomplish nothing. It'll just get you ignored. And I think some middle ground can be found. But this thread will just get ignored if you just start "whining about the whiners".
    Thank you. 6 years as well and it is much like a penduluum. Hoping the next swing doesn't cut you in half..sighs
    Last edited by silence383; 03-30-2013 at 02:23 AM.

  15. #135
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    NOw, see here. You are doing just the same thing that you are complaining about. Not saying that things are all rigth as they stand, but you ARE doing the same thing you hate melees for.
    I think I have to agree with you here.

    Turbine has a track record of nerfing classes (crit rage, tempest, and multiple caster nerfs). Why are you surprised? It is and always will be flavor of the month builds that are OP. Before we had PM and high dc casters, everyone was a sorc. I remember when GH originally came out; it was Sorc that ruled the roost then as well. They nerfed them and just now are they coming back to life.

    I personally hate this concept. I understand that there needs to be a grind in a game, but when I put effort into building something I like, I get miffed when Turbine decides to nerf it. However, i have come to the realization that Turbine will not change.
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  16. #136
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I think I have to agree with you here.

    Turbine has a track record of nerfing classes (crit rage, tempest, and multiple caster nerfs). Why are you surprised? It is and always will be flavor of the month builds that are OP. Before we had PM and high dc casters, everyone was a sorc. I remember when GH originally came out; it was Sorc that ruled the roost then as well. They nerfed them and just now are they coming back to life.

    I personally hate this concept. I understand that there needs to be a grind in a game, but when I put effort into building something I like, I get miffed when Turbine decides to nerf it. However, i have come to the realization that Turbine will not change.
    I totally get this...

    I've put my radiant servant back on the shelf because he is back to heal only since EGH and the new DCs required.

    My WF enchant spec'd wizard is also not nearly as much fun for the same reason.

    My other character is a dex based tempest ranger... well, we all know the long history of nerfs there.... and with 17.1 and crushing my reflex save I've decided to TR this character again and play low level content a bit. But really, how long until I get bored there and find I no longer have anyone fun to play at high level... and quit?

    (Moral here is that when you make everyone else play the way you think is fun, some people stop playing...)
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemoneyes View Post
    30sh?
    you obviously never played a caster on EH not even talking about EE...
    Qft.

    You regularly fail dc checks with 30ish dcs on level 16 quests like most of Vale, what EN or EH would that be viable in again? Imo, anyone that disagrees with the point of this thread hasn't been playing a dc based caster.

  18. #138
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoxia View Post
    Qft.

    You regularly fail dc checks with 30ish dcs on level 16 quests like most of Vale, what EN or EH would that be viable in again? Imo, anyone that disagrees with the point of this thread hasn't been playing a dc based caster.
    Or just wants a haste bot (even hold bot is entering the realm of unlikely to not going to happen, especially if saves go up much more).

    I honestly hope DCs get looked at enough (and therefore, enemy saves adjusted enough) that I can TR my shiradi sorc back to what it's really supposed to be: an evoker FvS...in the mean time, I'd be a mad man to TR like that when my primary focus is running EE content.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  19. #139
    Community Member Drona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    But really, how long until I get bored there and find I no longer have anyone fun to play at high level... and quit?

    (Moral here is that when you make everyone else play the way you think is fun, some people stop playing...)
    Ding! We have a winner!

    I have already stopped playing EEs (and so has many players mentioned in this very thread). Now how long before we will be forced to run only EN and then cant run even that, and finally, quit?

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeafeningWhisper View Post
    they never intended it to be the best way for a dps caster to be useful in EE so I'm sure they'll "fix it".
    I partially agree and partially disagree with this part. (Note: This is not directed primarily at you, but more so at the posters who've been complaining about Shiradi and casters lately).

    Where I disagree:

    I think that the reason why Shiradi was designed to work with spells was two fold. Druids and Rangers.

    When Motu and ED's came out Rangers got a couple of new spells (They're completely useless but they got them), and one spell in particular got a buff (it's barely noticeable, but it was technically a buff), that spell was Spike Growth.

    Spike Growth is, on the whole a completely useless spell. It basically amounts to a baby Blade barrier, with less damage, half the Duration and generally lower DC's than one is likely to see for Blade Barrier. I think that their intention was for Shiradi to work in tandem with spells like Spike Growth to grant Shiradi procs and also to help make up for the lower damage that Druids for example generally do via spells when compared to say a Sorc or Wizzy.


    Where I agree:

    I honestly don't believe that Turbine thought it through when it comes to Arcanes. In particular spells like Magic Missiles and Chain Missiles etc. Basically spells that cannot miss (Shield/Nightshield notwithstanding ofc) and are cheap to cast.

    I think they intended for Shiradi procs to simply add a small boost to every offensive spell that got cast. But the problem is, Magic Missiles for example has 5 chances to proc per cast. If even half of them proc we're looking at some very nice DPS for very few SP.

    Are we really surprised that Shiradi is favoured in such a situation?



    Oh and I in general agree with the OP. I laughed when I saw the Druid class. The devs obviously intended it as a generalist class (Mix of Spell and Melee and Summons), but they have designed the game around specialists.

    Using the Druid as an example, if you try to build a generalist Druid then you'll simply find that most of your spells won't land (Due to the DC's being balanced against pure Arcanes) and your melee capability is lacking.

    That to me speaks volumes about the disconnect between players and developers.

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