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  1. #41
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Also you are correct about off hand strength as well as power attack.

    The attack speed with wraps is faster than attack speed with swords. By around... 10-15% (is that right?)
    .

    The Power Attack comment was a question - I wasn't certain but I'll take this as PA does half damage in an off-hand with weapons. That + str does start to add up. I don't see it being overwhelming though.

    I know nothing about wraps being that much faster. With 2 Monk you could use Wind stance for 7.5% attack speed but this will apply to Longswords too as a Ki weapon. On mine I originally wanted to use the 7.5% + melee alacrity but thought alacrity was enchantment but it's enhancement so does not stack with wind stance. I'm on ocean now for the defense since I'm stuck in PJ's. (PSM there, read the type of bonus first)

    Ok, I'm straying off subject now but I don't see anywhere the wraps getting such a high attack speed bonus. I'm not saying they don't but while I was building my character I never saw any such thing in any rule.

  2. #42

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    The fundamental problem with longsword focused melee: Lack of good weapon itemization.
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  3. #43
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    I don't know what I'm missing but the Longswords look awfully close and I don't see an 18/2 Clonk completely out-damaging an 18/2 Fvs Mo. What is the big boost to wraps?
    Maybe if you could provide your stats, feats, weapons and other dmg mods you using, someone could do *rough* math to compare these two examples .

    But stun fist ( best melee tactics feat) - high wis ( some spellcasting possibility indirectly ) -sense weakness - faster attack speed ( 7 -8 % ? ) synergy is huge.

    As Carpone said, no good longswords, no way to mitigate melee ( group ) damage.

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  4. #44
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Ok, I'm straying off subject now but I don't see anywhere the wraps getting such a high attack speed bonus.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Handwraps
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144

    tl;dr version: unarmed atk speed for centered monk is ~8% faster than atk speed w/weapons. That plus full STR bonus to offhand atks more than offsets the higher base & crit dmg from longswords; particularly against high-fortification targets (like most bosses) where crits are less important. Things get more complicated once you factor in EDs or specific named weapons (e.g., Oathblade); but as a general rule, handwraps beat WSS builds when all else being equal. And the value of Stunning Fist (which is handwrap-only) shouldn't be underestimated, esp. on WIS builds.

    The bottom line is WSS builds sacrifice two feats and a decent chunk of their potential melee DPS for almost nothing in return apart from flavor. If someone really wants a monk w/blades, I'd recommend a monk 6 (Ninja I) build w/shortswords instead; you don't have to give up two feats and dual Celestias is a pretty decent alternative to wraps.

    As for the OP's build: it has subpar melee DPS, subpar caster DPS (no lvl 9 spells, DCs suffer w/out max WIS, Heighten, and Spell Focuses), and subpar healing (by design / intent). Yes, he's able to spam Align the Heavens for -25% SP cost; but lower-cost casting on a subpar caster is of questionable value.

    That said, the vast majority of DDO's content isn't so difficult as to require minmaxed builds; and most inherent deficiencies can be overcome by player skill, gear, and EDs.

    Thinking about the OP's build & stated goals, I'm wondering if FvS 15 / monk 3 / <splash> 2 wouldn't work better. He gives up lvl 8 spells & wings; but I don't really see any must-have lvl 8 spells and wings can be acquired from Exalted Angel ED. Then he could either splash pally for much better saves (Divine Grace); or rgr / ftr for extra feats. Could even work in Manyshot w/rgr splash, though AA+WSS is probably too much to ask. At that point I'd probably dump WIS entirely and focus on the light spells; that lets him beef up STR and/or CON.
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  5. #45
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    15/3/2 is an excellent and the best platform for a wss build.

    However the 15 levels belong to cleric, whom is really the only class i see that its even worthwhile to have wss on.

    I personally ran 15clr,3monk,2fighter human started it back around update 7-8.
    i recently wanted to lr the ftr lvls to paladin, but due to my leveling order i was unable to using a single heart. So now im currentlh 17/2/1 meh waiting on a few things before i tr it.

    Restarted another toon with a greater tome of learning
    in hopes to get 1 monk and 3 paladin past lives then finish out as 15clr 3 monk 2 pal wis based unarmed however. After much personal debate, stunning blow + monk past life added more utility than the dps increase with wss oathblades did. Planning on posting that build shortly. (radiant goddess)

    Twf + ow crit line + meta feat cost was just too high for me.

  6. #46
    Community Member lethargos's Avatar
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    Default in defence of wss

    With wss you can get a good base damage and better crit profile than with handwraps on a splash.
    Twisting dance of flowers oatblade gets 4(w)d10.
    And if you go dreadnaught it makes it work way better than with handwraps.
    Oathblade would be 5.5(w)d10 and even a regular epic longsword would be 5(w)d8.
    And you can even use all the dreadnaught abilities.
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  7. #47
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lethargos View Post
    With wss you can get a good base damage and better crit profile than with handwraps on a splash.
    Twisting dance of flowers oatblade gets 4(w)d10.
    And if you go dreadnaught it makes it work way better than with handwraps.
    Oathblade would be 5.5(w)d10 and even a regular epic longsword would be 5(w)d8.
    And you can even use all the dreadnaught abilities.
    Everything you list can be applied to handwraps as well (baring one.. two? dreadnaught ablitities)
    Rate of attack is still faster, and the fact off hand is fully str damage instead of half means that wraps are still the better damaging weapon.

    But as the op stated, this is a flavor build.

    Given the fact I have a 12 fvs/6 paladin/ 2 monk WSS build for some time now, I know what the benefits and drawbacks are. Sure it isn't min/maxed, but the build is also fun.

  8. #48
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    Except on a no past life monk, monk 2-3 lvl splash wss(oathblades) is more dps than fists.
    5.5d10x417-20 > 4.75d6x4 19-20

    You also have the ability to generate ki faster.

    All the theorycraft, fuzzy math and forum hearsay in the world doesnt equate to reality.

    The real problem with wss is the feat cost, and the fact that 95% of builds don't take advantage of centered benefits enough to make it worthwhile. In fact, the only class i would ever take wss on is cleric with fire stance with jidz.

    2 reasons; divine might isn't effected by offand str and
    Secondly, 144pt heal aura is GODLY in a maxxed out blitz you never have to stop or shrine.
    Last edited by Steveohio; 03-30-2013 at 10:12 AM.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveohio View Post
    144pt heal aura is GODLY in a maxxed out blitz you never have to stop or shrine.
    How high is your healamp to get 144 heal aura with only 15 cleric?
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  10. #50
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    Maybe my math is wrong:
    5 (17/3) x 4 (80 enh, 120 item, 100 emp heal) = 20 base
    144 / 20 = 7.20 heal amp?
    1.3 human x 1.1 monk x 1.1 ship x 1.3 x 1.25 x 1.2 x 1.1 = 3.374 amp

  11. #51
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveohio View Post
    Except on a no past life monk, monk 2-3 lvl splash wss(oathblades) is more dps than fists.
    5.5d10x417-20 > 4.75d6x4 19-20

    You also have the ability to generate ki faster.

    All the theorycraft, fuzzy math and forum hearsay in the world doesnt equate to reality.
    4 things.

    1. Oathblades are 15-20 crit range naturally (not 17-20). No improved feat required.
    2. Rate of attack really determines which can generate Ki faster. In this case, it may break even due to the crit range of Oathblades.
    3. You utterly ignored rate of attack which is not theory craft at all.
    4. You have crit mulitplier at x4. How were you thinking?
    I assume one is T5 dreadnaught, however that is only on a 19-20, not 15-20. (You may not want to be in Dreadnaught. I'm in GMoF myself.)
    The only other I can think of is Epic: Overwhemling critical. It too is also only on a 19-20.
    The ability point cost makes that character highly gear intensive as you need a 23 base str to take OC. While possible, I have to wonder just which point you will be hurting the character's abilities. Spells or HP?
    By going OC, chances are you'll never quality for any PrE for an FvS. This choice may further hurt the character. It is an unknown at this time as the game does not have them done yet.
    I can't see this build feasable on a halfling due to the -2 str. (unless you are counting on tomes of +4 variety. They are much more common now.) While a human could allow for a PrE selection (I think).

  12. #52

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    I've got a whirling steel character and depending on the monster, Oathblade, or really good level 25 long swords can match the DPS output of unarmed (ignoring stunning fist for the moment).

    Worth the feats... not if you just care about dps, no. But it doesn't suck if you work at it. I am set up to do unarmed I like. On mobs I can stun, that's clearly better, on ones I can't, the swords actually do a bit more damage, then again its hard to find really good DPS wraps as where longswords are pretty cheap to acquire.

    As to the build... I also think it should take power attack and drop Oversized. I'd not choose elf but human due to the limited feats. But if you just like Elf, its not that big a difference. Go average wis if you can and take stunning fist and get some grave wrappings. Works wonders in some quests. I have quick draw so I can swap them in and out as well as activating my action boosts but I don't think you have the luxury of that on this build. Still, a FVS will have gobs of mana, I have to struggle to get mine up and work at making my healing super efficient to avoid burning through it.

    BTW: Oathblade is now 2.5W due to the vorpal change, so the 4w is with the grandmaster of flowers ability for centered weapons, then you take the + .5 from power attack in Dreadnaught, That's 4.5 sustained, then you get some other goodies and its fun times. I haven't quite got it all in place yet on mine but its really not bad. Mind you mine is paladin based not FVS and I'm using healing amp rather than raw casting power.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    4 things.

    1. Oathblades are 15-20 crit range naturally (not 17-20). No improved feat required.


    Correct. 17-20 would be on normal ls or tinah + trinket for prr

    2. Rate of attack really determines which can generate Ki faster. In this case, it may break even due to the crit range of Oathblades.

    Ive found with crane + fire stance you generate ki faster than fists. More ki with less attacks also.

    3. You utterly ignored rate of attack which is not theory craft at all.
    This is true, however when your average hit is significantly higher due to crit frequency which takes more advantage of seeker effects it does more than equal out.


    4. You have crit mulitplier at x4. How were you thinking?
    I assume one is T5 dreadnaught, however that is only on a 19-20, not 15-20. (You may not want to be in Dreadnaught. I'm in GMoF myself.)
    The only other I can think of is Epic: Overwhemling critical. It too is also only on a 19-20.

    Depending on your ed at the time combined with ow crit, yes x4 on 19-20 and x2 on 15-18
    Primal avatar also has a crit multiplier, and while i havnt personally tested, you gain spirit stacks from radiant aura.

    The ability point cost makes that character highly gear intensive as you need a 23 base str to ta
    ke OC. While possible, I have to wonder just which point you will be hurting the character's abilities. Spells or HP?
    By going OC, chances are you'll never quality for any PrE for an FvS. This choice may further hurt the character. It is an unknown at this time as the game does not have them done yet.

    Any multiclass, esp tri-class builds are highly gear intensive. As a battle divine, its nearly always typical to dump casting in favor of melee.

    I can't see this build feasable on a halfling due to the -2 str. (unless you are counting on tomes of +4 variety. They are much more common now.) While a human could allow for a PrE selection (I think).
    Not all builds work with all races. A good portion only work on a single race. Human does work best for mine.
    I do feel that fists + stunning blow add more versatility on a max wis toon in gmotf however it is certainly nowhere near the dps of wss in ld or pa for that matter.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddong View Post
    Maybe my math is wrong:
    5 (17/3) x 4 (80 enh, 120 item, 100 emp heal) = 20 base
    144 / 20 = 7.20 heal amp?
    1.3 human x 1.1 monk x 1.1 ship x 1.3 x 1.25 x 1.2 x 1.1 = 3.374 amp
    Don't forget finger necklace with its weird stacking. Also x3 paladin past lives. Ed twists are also available, but highly costly and probably not worth it.

    Other alternatives are taking monk dilantee in he for tier2 amp in monk + human. Druid1 also has spell power available for positive that stacks with cleric.

    Lots of ways to exploit healing amp + radiant aura, and most people are oblivous to how good it really is.
    WSS i beleive holds the most potential, however a 17cleric/2monk/1druid with quarter staves has some potiential.

  15. #55
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveohio View Post
    Ive found with crane + fire stance you generate ki faster than fists. More ki with less attacks also.
    If in Juggernaut, why worry about Ki at all? If you have 3 lvls of monk, I can see why you would (very slightly), but 2? no real reason to worry about ki.

    Given that your focus is melee, being in fire along will generate a surplus of Ki to do any move you want to do. You'd be better off putting the AP from crane into something else. (providing there is actually something else you want. For all I know with the build, it may just be AP spending filler.)

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