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  1. #1
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Default Arcane Archer damage estimation

    I made a serious miscalculation that affects the results in my original post (found below). In evaluating other weapon suggestions I discovered that I had forgotten to include STR damage on normal hits for all weapons. This changes the results, which now look like this:

    Pinion: Shooting only with Manyshot & 10K -- 44674.
    Pinion: Manyshot & 10K, GTWF when both on timer -- 43190.
    Pinion: Manyshot only, GTWF when on timer -- 36815.
    Celestia: GTWF w Tempest PrE -- 36224.


    The original post continues below.


    In a previous thread I posted somewhat disparagingly about the Arcane Archer prestige class. After considerable debate I determined to work through some numbers to discover whether my point of view was correct or not.

    The results of my numbers were revealing to me.

    To analyze the effectiveness of the AA PrE I first looked at how to get the maximum damage from ranged combat. This is adequately covered in many posts and involves combining Manyshot with Ten Thousand Stars.

    Manyshot has a 120s cool down and 10K has a 60s cool down. This effectively allows the use of 1 Manyshot and 2 10K with 40s/120s of normal rates of fire. At a standard of 100 shooting animations/60s this produces 402 attacks/120s.

    I compared this to the rate of GTWF at 133 animations/60s or 266 attacks/120s.

    Using the guide of 19 hits/20 attacks this produced 382 hits/120s for the AA and 253 hits/120s for the TWF.

    From this information I calculated the number of critical hits assuming Improved Critical for the weapons I compared. This allowed me to calculate the damage of all attacks combined over the 120s interval.

    The weapons I compared were Pinion, Cloud Piercer and duel-wielded Celestia, Brightest Star of Day.

    Assuming NO damage resistance these are the results:

    Pinion: Manyshot & 10K, GTWF when both on timer -- 38901.
    Pinion: Shooting only with Manyshot & 10K -- 38661.
    Pinion: Manyshot only, GTWF when on timer -- 30986.
    Celestia: GTWF w Tempest PrE -- 30206.

    So, I was wrong. A fully outfitted and equipped Arcane Archer will produce more damage over 120s than a Ranger with the Tempest PrE that melees the opponent.

    But, this comes with an important caveat. It is only true if the opponent has no DR.

    This is problematic for the AA because most raid bosses do have significant DR and Pinion has difficulty breaking DR.

    In the estimation of damage I slotted 1d10 fire damage in the red augment slot on Pinion. That could instead be slotted with some metal or alignment bypass. That is still a problem as far as I can tell.

    I'd be interested to hear from others on how they bypass DR as I don't see an easy way.

    Celestia, on the other hand, bypasses all DR except for mobs with light immunities. As far as I know, that is no quest or raid end boss.

    At DR 25 things look like this:

    Pinion: Manyshot & 10K, GTWF when both on timer -- 30403.
    Celestia: GTWF w Tempest PrE -- 30206.
    Pinion: Manyshot only, GTWF when on timer -- 26435.
    Pinion: Shooting only with Manyshot & 10K -- 25123.

    Things also change significantly if Slayer arrows are not used. Without Slayer arrows the results (assuming no DR) look like this:

    Pinion: Manyshot & 10K, GTWF when both on timer -- 30270.
    Celestia: GTWF w Tempest PrE -- 30206.
    Pinion: Shooting only with Manyshot & 10K -- 28611.
    Pinion: Manyshot only, GTWF when on timer -- 27618.

    At this point it is important to look at time lost in recognizing and switching to the proper attack form during the 120s span. When combining Manyshot with 10K and GTWF the player has to activate 3 shooting stances and also make 3 weapon set changes.

    The numbers given are total damage per 120s. Divide by 120 and it gives damage per second (DPS). DPS for Pinion with Manyshot & 10K using GTWF when those are on timer is 252.25. DPS for Celestia is 251.71.

    If the player uses even 1 second for all the switches among attacks and weapon sets that are needed then Tempest Ranger jumps ahead. And, even under ideal circumstances the two are so close that they are effectively the same DPS.

    All in all, it was very revealing information for me. I thought it interesting enough that it deserved a thread of its own.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-25-2013 at 11:45 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    A word about methodology.

    I am not a math genius. So, I had to break things down into component parts and then add them back together again to get my numbers.

    For Pinion I assumed 1d10 fire slotted in the red augment and the Quiver of Poison. This added 11 points of damage to every shot.

    In all cases I assumed a 50 STR giving 20 damage on bow and main-hand attacks, 10 damage on off-hand attacks. I also assumed seeker 10 on all critical hits.

    I did not average the effects of on vorpal events (such as Slayer arrow's 500 damage) but instead calculated that separately for each 20 in the critical range. Because both weapons have the same critical range of 17-20 with IC this means 25% of all criticals are considered vorpal events.

    Pinion damage was calculated using 25.5 base damage (to be part of multiplied damage on criticals), 10.5 added sonic damage per hit, 11 added damage from fire and poison per hit, 500 added damage on vorpal events.

    Celestia damage was calculated using 21.75 base damage (to be part of multiplied damage on criticals), 10.5 added good damage per hit, 14 added light damage on criticals, 22.75 added fire damage on vorpal events (assumed target always saved), and 2% of all hits produced 255 average random damage.

    Instead of breaking attacks per minute into fractional amounts I instead used whole numbers in 10s increments. For Pinion the sequence was 17,17,16 producing 100 attacks/60s. For Celestia the sequence was 23,22,22,22,22,22 producing 133 attacks/60s.

    Pinion's attacks/10s were multiplied by 4 during the 20s Manyshot period and by 2 during each of the two 10K periods.

    All numbers were rounded to nearest whole number at each step in the calculations. Each 10s period's attacks were reduced to 19/20 of the original to account for miss on 1. Total attacks were then accumulated and assigned 15/19 to normal hits, 3/19 to critical hits, and 1/19 to vorpal events. Vorpal events were both critical hits and triggered any on 20 damage that was appropriate (such as Slayer arrow's 500 damage).

    I then calculated all damage -- normal, critical, vorpal event -- and added them together.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-24-2013 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Added explanation of methodology

  3. #3
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    very nice, very well thought out, very well said...

    +1 to you

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    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, could you do math for aa with many shot and NOT gtwf or 10k when it's on cooldown ?

    Also why the assumption that tempest is NOT going to manyshot when it's available ? The best rangers play that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I'd be interested to hear from others on how they bypass DR as I don't see an easy way.
    Good augment in Pinion or when stay good is ever get fixed.
    Last edited by Encair; 03-22-2013 at 08:25 AM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Out of curiosity, could you do math for aa with many shot and NOT gtwf or 10k when it's on cooldown ?

    Also why the assumption that tempest is NOT going to manyshot when it's available ? The best rangers play that way.


    Good augment in Pinion or when stay good is ever get fixed.
    I can and will when I get a few minutes.

    The assumption with Tempest was simply because of the discussion in the other thread.

    Edit: Alright, assuming Tempest PrE so no Slayer arrows the combination of Manyshot plus GTWF during cooldown is 29928. Because of the loss of the vorpal event's 500 damage from the Slayer arrows you lose DPS by combining Manyshot with TWF if you have the Tempest PrE.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-22-2013 at 08:44 AM. Reason: calculated Manyshot w Tempest

  6. #6
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    This is very interesting. The main point taken from all this for me is the following: I obviously suck at playing and/or building an AA. Oh, well.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  7. #7
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    This is very interesting. The main point taken from all this for me is the following: I obviously suck at playing and/or building an AA. Oh, well.
    Well, the assumptions are best gear on L25 character.

    Also, it does not attempt to consider the effects of epic destinies.

    Because my math is the result of a D in Calculus in 1971 I did not even try to estimate the impact that EDs would have. I only went for the easy to measure effects.

    My assumption is that with ED effects and optimal twists the results will skew significantly. I just don't have the math chops to figure out which way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Well, the assumptions are best gear on L25 character.
    True, and my own pathetic attempt at an AA did not have even close to the best gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Also, it does not attempt to consider the effects of epic destinies.

    Because my math is the result of a D in Calculus in 1971 I did not even try to estimate the impact that EDs would have. I only went for the easy to measure effects.

    My assumption is that with ED effects and optimal twists the results will skew significantly. I just don't have the math chops to figure out which way.
    Hehe

    Well, I don't think I'll try to help you out here, I'm not sure my own math is up to this, either - sorry!
    It's definitely an N-word.

  9. #9
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    The numbers are more skewed than your analysis indicates.

    i. Point blank shot is left out entirely from your analysis as far as I can see, when in reality it will be in effect most of the time. Thats an extra 7 per shot, or 2650 damage over your 120s timeframe (I think it also gets multiplied by crits, so my number is actually on the low side).

    ii. Past lives - you can add up to 3 damage per melee strike from past lives, but up to 9 from ranged past lives. Whilst this doesn't affect all arcane archers, for fully max'd out characters, this is another 6 damage per shot.

    I.e. you're missing about 5000 damage difference over the 120s.

    Whilst pinion doesn't break dr natively, you can slot it with good which will resolve a lot of situations. On top of this, you can purchase silver and cold iron ammo (house D favor is the best bet for a dedicated archer). Whilst this is a lot more micromanagement than the melee option with 2x celestia, you can keep up the damage output on most mobs in the game if you're willing to use the right arrows for the situation.

  10. #10
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    Whilst pinion doesn't break dr natively, you can slot it with good which will resolve a lot of situations. On top of this, you can purchase silver and cold iron ammo (house D favor is the best bet for a dedicated archer). Whilst this is a lot more micromanagement than the melee option with 2x celestia, you can keep up the damage output on most mobs in the game if you're willing to use the right arrows for the situation.
    I considered this but dismissed it. For example, in the Fall of Truth the Wiki states that the Truthful One has DR 25/bludgeoning. Nothing about Pinion can be changed to overcome that.

    Similarly, Stormreaver is stated in the Wiki to be DR 25/mithral. Again, nothing Pinion can do about that.

    Of course, melee in Fall of Truth can be its own problem and ranged is probably still preferred.

    I only address the problem with DR because it will change results depending on players and resources.

    Another thing I did not address was fortification. This will also affect things by changing the number of critical hits. It might favor Tempest because they have more overall hits when both main-hand and off-hand are considered.

    I did not do all of that work because it seems to me that the situations where it applies are relatively small. Still, both DR and fortification might come into play -- especially when talking about quest and raid bosses.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Another thing I did not address was fortification. This will also affect things by changing the number of critical hits. It might favor Tempest because they have more overall hits when both main-hand and off-hand are considered.
    Power Attack does not work for ranged. So most archers will be run in Precision all the time.

    Whether this as an impact to the calculations because of i) -25% fort is better that +5 dmg or ii) +5% to hit is better than -5 to hit, is very dependant on the situation. Precision is pretty important for fury many shot.
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  12. #12
    Community Member kinggartk's Avatar
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    I know Many Shot is 20 secs every 120. I know little about 10K stars. Is that 30 with a 30 sec cool down?
    Last edited by kinggartk; 03-22-2013 at 09:15 AM.

  13. #13
    Community Member Demaril's Avatar
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    You mentioned using 2X hits for 10k stars, my personal experience has seemed to be higher i very frequently get triple attacks and currently only 21 so with little gear investment to wisdom so plenty of room for improvement

  14. #14
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Good critiques. I'll attempt to answer them.

    I did not take into account point-blank-shot as I assumed that most archers prefer to be out of melee range. Part of the appeal of ranged combat is the survivability and most of that relies on not being in immediate danger -- IE, melee range.

    I did not include past lives. It didn't really occur to me to do that. I suppose that in a comparison assuming best available gear (and even that may be debatable, I'm just assuming that Pinion and Celestia are best choices) that provision should have been made.

    The advantage to the AA is smaller than this suggests, though, because the number of melee hits is either 200% for Tempest or 180% for GTWF calculations to allow for both main-hand and off-hand attacks. It is still an advantage for AA but not as large as we might have thought.

    Ten thousand stars is a 30s burst with a 60s cooldown. Since the timer starts cooling down when the stance is activated this means 30s on and 30s off. The rate of fire looks like this in 10s intervals (MS=Manyshot, 10K=10K Stars, Sh=single shot):

    MS MS 10K 10K 10K Sh Sh Sh 10K 10K 10K Sh

    At the end of this sequence Manyshot is off cool down and the whole cycle repeats.

    I used 2 per on 10K because it is based on WIS. I was told that 40 WIS would safely produce and average of 2 per shot and trusted the source. Higher WIS will produce more but the number is an average (in reality it is sometimes 1, sometimes 2, etc on each shot).

    Hopefully this explains what I did a little better.

  15. #15
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Archers looking to maximise damage will stay within point blank shot range (this is not nearly as restrictive as 'melee range' btw), so it should be counted into damage.

    I'm not very clear on what numbers you've used for ranged vs. twf melee. You mention 382 hits per 120s for ragned and 253 hits per 120s for twf, however it looks like your twf number should be scaled up by 80-100% for the offhand - is this correct? Even then (and rounding the numbers to 400shots per 120s / 500hits per 120s), ranged will get +9 on 400 shots whilst melee gets +3 on 500 hits, so PLs definitely strongly favor the AA.

    The fact that DR/bludgeon exists doesn't mean that you can or should disregard the fact that pinion can be set up to break almost every other dr in the game. To get a fair comparision for mobs resistant to piercing, considering the sheer situationality of dr/bludgeoning, you should allow the AA to switch to the bow of the silver flame when fighting such mobs.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bo...e_Silver_Flame

    (As a digression, fun fact: pulversier, the LD ability that extends blunt weapon crit-ranges, works with this bow).

    Fortification is easier to bypass when ranged than when melee, because of precision. However, melee will tend to stick with power attack. Any advantage here is again going to the AA.

    By the way, on rereading your methodology, it looks like you missed power attack on the melee side. This should be added in, very few dps melee will ever turn that feat off. This adds 5 per hit for the HElf builds being considered in your analysis.

  16. #16
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    What WIS are you using for 10k? Also you missed Precise Shot's archer's focus buff.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobmx View Post
    What WIS are you using for 10k?
    Answered in a post above, I took 40 WIS which I was told would reliably average 2 shots.

  18. #18
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Thanks for the observations.

    I did miss PA. As I said, I did not include PBS or past lives -- might be something to do after the weekend (which looks to be busy with a full slate of kids and soccer games).

    Regarding TWF, base number for main-hand is 133/60s which, after misses, is 253 hits/120s. For Tempest I took 100% of these in calculating off-hand (but have to count differently than main-hand due to 50% STR bonus). For non-Tempest GTWF I took 80% of those.

    I think I address this in a post a bit higher up.

    Bow of the Silver Flame is indeed a solution to DR/bludgeon. It has other characteristics as well that provide an answer to many of the DR issues.

    I tried to allude to this in saying that I may not have picked the best weapons for comparisons. I just took the two that seem to get a lot of attention in the forums. It may be that there are better choices in both the ranged and melee categories. I didn't look that hard trying to find them.

    I did miss the archer's focus buff. Like the other observations, if I get time I'll try to figure out how to work it in.

    I'll refer you back to the post about my D in Calculus. I'm pretty sure I can figure most of these out, but it will take me a bit of time.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-22-2013 at 12:14 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    ...I tried to allude to this in saying that I may not have picked the best weapons for comparisons. I just took the two that seem to get a lot of attention in the forums. It may be that there are better choices in both the ranged and melee categories. I didn't look that hard trying to find them....
    Yah, BUT it's still a decent measurement, since 1) not everyone will have the uberest of the uber and 2) any ranged character is going to have his/her own set of situationals... if they don't have pinion, they might have a very good DR breaking lootgen bow. It's still a good model for us to adapt to our own gearset.

    +1

  20. #20
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    Ranged and melee might come out roughly comparably in terms of base DPS, all things being equal, but I think the faster hitrate of melee means it will multiply additional effects (things like Manslayer from non-weapon gear, on-hit ED effects, etc.) more than ranged. Anything that's a flat scalar bonus (mainly, PA and bonus damage from STR) is going to have a greater effect with a faster hitrate. Melee damage has the greater potential for increase, and I think that's edge: melee (no pun intended).

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