Archer's focus / IPS? Unbridled Fury? Damage boost from LD? There are a lot of damage sources missing. Each source of damage is potentially 4x compared to tempest at 1-2x with doublestrike. The gap is actually wider with all things considered. This is a good starting point though.
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It is worth noting, however. And, if the actual rate is lower then it changes the results significantly.
However, I think it is a meaningful discussion and worth investigating more fully.
I'm assuming you are an AA build of some type so that the comparison is valid.
What destiny were you using?
How much str did your tempest have?
Was the enemy you tested against a favored one?
40k looks very low for a character with access to adrenaline+manyshot.
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Exactly what I was thinking. With unbridled fury + damage boost (30%) + manyshot + archers focus (it will last most of the duration of manyshot) and supplemental adrenalines, I am getting over 100k, not 40k, for the duration of the manyshot. But all of this was ignored in the other post he is referring to as well. You have to remember that any extra damage while running manyshot is 4x, not just x. Tempest can potentially give 2x, but only on a doublestrike.
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As I mentioned several times, I did not include any ED or additional factors such as IPS, PBS, past lives, etc.
That is beyond the scope of what I was trying to analyze. How those factors affect results is not known to me. How it skews the results is not known to me.
Nor am I really trying to evaluate those things. To do so would involve additional calculations that are, possibly, beyond my limited math abilities.
What I did was a simple, direct comparison of a 50 STR 40 WIS character. The value of the information is limited to that. What can be extrapolated from that depends a great deal on how you set the other parameters. I set them all to zero, meaning they had no impact in my estimations.
It is pretty easy to replicate what I did and then to add in any additional information that you think is relevant. As before, I invite you to post your maths for us.
AA's have an easy time breaking DR, slot 'good' in the bow for instance, and use metallic type needed to break DR in your arrows: DR broken
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I am far more interested in the number of arrows that can be fired over a 2 min period. Attack rate for twf, thf, and handwraps have all been worked out fairly well. Archery has not.
It is important to keep in mind that I only raise potential issues with the estimate. I know that there are ways around the objections.
Clearly Pinion can slot either a metal or an alignment in its red augment. This reduces damage by 5.5 per shot due to loss of the 1d10 fire augment that I used.
Slayer can be placed on any arrow and it is not necessary to even use +n ammunition since the ammo + does not stack on the bow and the bow is calculated at +8. Thus, any ammunition can be used and this could well be the other part of a DR breaker.
Similarly, an in-party artificer can cast a metal or alignment on Pinion to assist with DR issues.
These things are known but not included in the calculations. Instead they are mentioned as potential problems because Celestia does not face this issue being a light damaging weapon. Instead, Celestia automatically bypasses all DR except for a very limited number of mobs that have resistance to light damage.
In particular I had in mind the Stormreaver who the Wiki reports as having DR/mithral. In this case nothing can be done to bypass the DR as none of the metals available in the red augment and none of the metals available to artificers include mithral.
As mentioned previously, this might be moot since the preferred method of dealing with the Stormreaver -- at least in Fall of Truth -- is to range him. OTOH, it might be significant presuming a character has the ability to melee w/o worrying too much over the Boom attack.
The OP used some unrealistic attack speed numbers in his calculation, so I did it again with the same assumptions (except for attack speed). I assumed 75 shots per minute. First is to note that GTWF DPS is better than single-shooting, and the OP went wrong here.
For Pinion 2 minutes, 1 manyshot, 2 10k stars, and single-shooting: 37668 damage.
For dual Celestia, Tempest GTWF: 28510 damage.
Where were you all when Shaatan was telling me that the right attack speed for bows was 100/min?
Note that I originally worked from the assumption that the bow attack rate was less (see questions on this by others higher in this thread).
I appreciate your recalculating this. It still appears that Pinion by itself is better than dual Celestia -- which was the surprise take-away for me in this.
How much additional STR is needed for TWF to outpace Pinion and what happens if Balizarde is used instead?
What happens if Shaatan's 100 shooting animations per minute is the correct number?
It's nice that you actually checked your beliefs for truth objectively. Impressive.
Each animation simply represents an attack during the attack sequence. This was standardized quite some time ago now so that each movement equated to an attack in the attack chain.
But, each animation can involve multiple actual events. For example, the single animation on a melee attack procs two different attacks for a Tempest Ranger with GTWF (both the main-hand and the off-hand are calculated even though we only see one attack animation).
The same thing with manyshot and 10K stars, although you may actually see multiple arrows leaving the bow and moving towards the target. In reality the display is irrelevant (or so I understand it) and instead each animation produces 4x to hit operations (assuming character level is high enough for 4x on manyshot).
The real question is, how many animations does a character get with full alacrity boost from all sources at L25. If it is 100 animations with all alacrity boosts running then we have one set of results. If it is 72 (or 78 or some other number) we have a different set of results.
My question about 100 animations isn't to ask about pew-pew-pew but to run the calculations again assuming that I am correct in taking Shaatan's 100 animations/minute.
I also think it worth hearing from Shaatan on this, assuming he is reading the thread or is made aware of it by someone else, as well as having more input from arcane archers on what the best animation rate actually is.
Hmm, seems we're all using different methodologies in this calculation. I did a back of the envelope calculation in excel, with the following assumptions:
Pinion - 3.5w (i.e. including PBS), +8 and wailing, with 50 str assumed, seeker +14 (+10 from the bow, +4 exceptional), 500 on vorpals, and 72 shots / min normal single arrow fire rate, AA, 3xranger PL, 3xmonk PL, +4 artifact bonus, +5 dream visor bonus
Celestia - 2.5w, +8 and supreme good, with 60 str assumed, seeker +12 (+8 from nether grasps, +4 exceptional), power attack 5, 14 on crit from radiance, 50 on vorpals from suburst and fiery detonation (mobs assumed to make all saves vs. these effects as the DCs are very low for EE content), Tempest III (including 5% double strike), 3xMonk PL, +4 artifact bonus, +5 dream visor bonus
Balizarde - 2.5w, +8 and phelbotomizing, 60 str, seeker +12, power attack 5, Tempest III, 3xMonk PL, +4 artifact bonus, +5 dream visor bonus
Pinion - 39,900 over 120s (adjusted to 51,900 over 120s as noted below)
Balizarde x2 - 56,750 over 120s
Celestia x2 - 45,000 over 120s
These numbers don't include archers focus or IPS. Assuming that archers focus is a straight multiplier of +30% (I'm not sure if it only multiplies base damage, or total damage), we get 51,900 over 120s for Pinion when in archer's focus mode, which is obviously applicable to boss fights. We can treat damage vs trash mobs as being probably a further 10-20% higher assuming that 50% of shots fired hit 2+ mobs. In the case of IPS, +30% damage adjustment is the correct lower bound, as if you feel you're hitting 2+mobs less than 30% of the time, you should simply switch to precise shot mode.
These numbers align better with my expectations than the numbers in the OP. On mobs with DR, I think the correct comparison is Pinion vs. Celestia, i.e. ranged is better than melee vs. bosses, and better vs trash (due to IPS). As has been stated by other posters in this thread, pinion should be assumed to break dr due to the ease of using metallic ammo.
On mobs without dr, balizarde looks much better than pinion on bosses on raw numbers, but factoring in archer's focus brings ranged back to within 10% of melee; meanwhile, IPS probably makes them the two styles a wash vs trash provided the AA can line up 2+ mobs 50% of the time.
In truth, str is probably being overstated here for a pure ranger tempest III, but conversely ram's might does add +2 on top, so the 60 str is really 56 str + ram's might. Similarly, I suspect that str is understated for a str based AA but about right for a wis based one (again, its really 46 str + ram's might to get to +20 mod from str).
Epic destinies are harder to calculate, but assuming FotW, my qualitative assessment is as follows: under normal trash fighting use, melee damage gets more of a boost as i. overwhelming force will render mobs helpless and vulnerable to more damage; and ii. adrenaline will regen faster for melee due to greater number of swings.
When in unbridled fury mode however, pinion damage will be much higher than that from balizarde. Assuming a fully stacked archer's focus at that point, and 25% damage boost on top, my suspicion is that on bosses melee will at best come out equal to ranged, but in all likelihood ranged will have more damage.
Edit: a further point re: dr - if a melee twf weapon doesn't break dr, the impact on overall dps is much greater than for ranged, due to the much higher rates of attack; the ratio is roughly 2 melee swings: 1 arrow fired, meaning that any given dr if not broken has twice as much impact on melee.
Roughly speaking, you'd subtract 275xDR from the 120s total damage for ranged, and 500xDR from the total for melee. In other words, if you encounter dr of 20+ per hit, you should switch from balizarde to celestia based on these numbers. At a DR of 20 which celestia breaks but pinion doesn't, the two weapons will be equal assuming archer's focus.
In other words, DR strongly favors ranged (because pinion + the right ammo will break almost all DR in the game anyway).
Similarly, fortification strongly favors ranged due to precision being a no cost stance (I think you can still be in archer's focus mode with precision up) whereas melee loses 5 damage per hit from switching off power attack.
Last edited by Loriac; 03-26-2013 at 03:55 AM.
So, what I am looking at is the number of attacks. You are calling these attack rolls.
The question is this: With all alacrity bonuses, does a L25 arcane archer get 72 animations in 60s or does it get 100 animations in 60s.
You have to count the animations. From there you calculate how many attacks occur based on other factors (manyshot, 10K, nothing). If the number of animations is 72 then in 120s there are 144 animations producing 288 actual attacks (288 attack rolls).
If 108 is the number of actual attack rolls in 90s that you are reporting then the animation rate is much slower. If it is the number of animations (not attack rolls) then you are reporting 72 animations in 60s.
FWIW, if 72 animations is correct (and not the 100 that I used) then Pinion drops below Celestia in my comparison. Meaning that Tempest Ranger is better DPS than AA given the narrow conditions I employed.
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