Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: rogue advice

  1. #1
    Community Member rabrams99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    391

    Default rogue advice

    Considering tring my old rogue into a new rogue.

    It seems upon review that an INT based assassin isn't viable for EE GH. (~65-67 DC for decent)
    I have a couple of questions: (not using khopeshes)

    1. Precision: Should it be taken on a damage specced rogue?

    2. Overwhelming critical vs Improved sneak attack which one, or BOTH?

    3. Is shadowdancer still what a rogue like this shoudl be in?
    Thando, Aarag, Keallen, Kuthroat, Sureshott, Skullcrusher

  2. #2
    Community Member domandi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    132

    Default

    1. Precision is a great feat for rogues. I would have that and power attack and switch according to the enemy.

    2. OC isn't really worth it on a rog due to needing cleave and great cleave. You are better off with ISA. Sadly rogues are pretty feat starved on normal feats. You need twf/itwf/gtwf/pa/precision/toughness(maybe not need but nice for low lvl rogues). so that is 6 of your 7 regular feats. Throw in PL:rog(which is really nice) you are pretty much done.

    3. Shadowdancer is really nice, but many of the ED's are usable depending on what you want to do. fotw or even LD are nice.
    Bhask the Unseen 21 Rog(tr 3), Tangoh 15 Barb(tr life 3),Domand d'Jorasco 18/2(tr4 )sorc/paly BF, Nilock 20(tr life 3), Domandi 20/8 1st life shuriken thrower.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Assassinate is very useable in EE GH. With a DC of around 60 you can consistently Assassinate casters and archers, and occasionally kill melees. With +8, +1 exc, +2 insight, and +3 insight INT items, as well as Shadowdancer +6, Epic Midnight's Greetings and some more INT from destiny, an INT-based Rogue is able to reach this.

    1. Precision is great. A must-have. Power Attack is very meh for rogues, in my opinion. You are already doing a lot of damage, and with a low crit-profile you don't get as much out of PA than other classes. You can take power attack, but these days I personally take Combat Expertise and twist in Improved Combat Expertise from Dreadnought. Do not neglect your defenses. With +11 from Light armor, +20 from Dreadnought, +15 from planar conflux, +14 from blue slot, and +10 from shield bug (equip shield, unequip shield, keep PRR bonus), you get 70 PRR (60 once they fix the shield thing) which shaves off a third of all damage you take. And when things in Epic Elite hit for >200, that's a lot.

    2. Overwhelming Critical is too expensive. Improved Sneak Attack is a must-have.

    3. Shadowdancer is best. 6d6 sneak attack, 25% incorporeal miss chance in Shadow Form, Shadow Manipulation (REALLY powerful), DDoor clickie, insta-kill ability with separate cooldown from Assassinte, a (non-functioning) implosion-like effect (that will never be fixed), more INT for Assassinate... However, I go into Unyielding Sentinel if I need more defense (+100 HP, +30 PRR (100 PRR total with the rest of the stuff, fro 40% damage reduction), and some more defense depending on what you spent points on (I have +4 CON from it)). Dreadnought and FotW are also solid destinies, but inferior to Shadowdancer in my opinion.

  4. #4
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    4,710

    Default

    "Viable" does not require success against every target every time.

    With (10 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 6) = 26d6 sneak attack damage (at least!!) on every hit, you definitely want Precision. It is also the best ROI for to-hit of any feat outside of proficiency, you really can't go wrong with it.

  5. #5
    Community Member rabrams99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    391

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    "Viable" does not require success against every target every time.

    With (10 + 3 + 4 + 3 + 6) = 26d6 sneak attack damage (at least!!) on every hit, you definitely want Precision. It is also the best ROI for to-hit of any feat outside of proficiency, you really can't go wrong with it.
    So do I have this correct then?

    1. Sneak attacks work on mobs that you do not have aggro.

    2. Sneak attacks however do not work on bosses due to fortification?

    3. With precision a rouge can get upwards 50% "de-fortification" so his crits will work 1/2 the time, and sneak attacks work 1/2 the time?

    4. Bluff allows sneak attacks to work on bosses for 4 seconds and if you ahve aggro on a regular mob it allows sneak attack damage for 4 seconds?

    5. Improved deception procs on one item and one weapon only, and this allows sneak attack damage like bluff?
    Thando, Aarag, Keallen, Kuthroat, Sureshott, Skullcrusher

  6. #6
    Community Member Mercureal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Centre of the Universe-ish, winterland version
    Posts
    1,205

    Default

    On the ED issue, I've build up levels in Shadowdancer, Legendary Dreadnought and GMOF so far on my rogue. I splashed pretty heavily for feats, so LD is decent for me but it might not be that great on a pure rogue. The core damage powers depend on Cleave and Great Cleave, and tactics are a big feature of it.

    Shadowdancer is very good for the extra SA dice and some nice defensive abilities.

    GMOF can be surprisingly good too. The handwrap attack mode does good overall damage and the increased attack rate has good synergy with Rogue SA. It gives you nice boosts to saves (including Will, the big Rogue weakness), some fortification bypass, and nice DPS additions with the various Ki blast powers. It's best if you have at least 1 level of Monk to get the added bonuses from stances and decent wisdom for the DCs on the Ki attacks. But it's not terrible without those, if you're running it to get access to divine EDs for twists.
    ---------------------------------------
    * Thelanis - Mercure *
    C.L.A.W. (Council of Law and War)
    ---------------------------------------

  7. #7
    The Hatchery
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,961

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rabrams99 View Post
    1. Sneak attacks work on mobs that you do not have aggro.
    Sneak attack applies in the following situations:
    Mob is not focused on you
    Mob is helpless (held, stunned, or has a stat that has been reduced to 0, among other effects)
    Mob is blind (a reason why radiance is so highly valued for rogues)
    Mob has been bluffed recently
    Mob has been struck with a Deception proc recently

    2. Sneak attacks however do not work on bosses due to fortification?
    Most bosses and trash mobs have 0% fortification. Sneak attack works fine on them. What you want fort penetration for is raid bosses, who can have up to 80% fortification. It is also useful for undead and elementals: these mobs are immune to sneak attack even with fort penetration, but can be debuffed by the Shadowdancer capstone such that they are no longer immune to sneak attack. This debuff, however, does not remove their fortification, thus the fort pen.

    3. With precision a rouge can get upwards 50% "de-fortification" so his crits will work 1/2 the time, and sneak attacks work 1/2 the time?
    There are more than a few sources of fort penetration:
    25% from Precision (an easy source of a lot of penetration, which is why it's recommended)
    10% from Opportunist (a rogue special feat)
    15% from Shadowdancer enhancements
    10% from Grandmaster of Flower enhancements (requires a level 4 twist)
    10% from armor piercing items (15% from Flawless Black Dragonscale Armor, 20% for upgraded armor)

    There might be a couple more that I'm missing, but this is about it. This does not include debuffs like Improved Sunder and FvS Shield of Condemnation.

    All of these stack additively, e.g. Precision + Opportunist + Flawless Black Armor = 50% penetration.

    4. Bluff allows sneak attacks to work on bosses for 4 seconds and if you ahve aggro on a regular mob it allows sneak attack damage for 4 seconds?
    Yes. However, this duration is so short that it's not very useful for getting damage (unless the mobs you're attacking have little HP). It's still a good skill to have though: bluff pulling mobs is very handy if you don't want to get swarmed, and if your deception items or radiance items just aren't procing then you can use it to get some damage.

    5. Improved deception procs on one item and one weapon only, and this allows sneak attack damage like bluff?
    Improved Deception is a must have. Both weapons can proc, and you can wear an item for even more procs. I'm not sure if multiple items can stack. At TWF speed, Improved Deception procs a LOT, enough to keep a mob vulnerable to sneak attack until you kill it. Deception works on every single mob.

    An added bonus is that deceived mobs will turn around. If you're procing fast enough, they might be rendered unable to attack. This is especially useful for bosses. With haste boost, you're attacking so fast that it's easy to lock the boss down, not letting it attack or cast spells. This does not work on raid bosses and some types of mobs (dragons, for one).

    Epic Midnight's Greetings are a good weapon for Improved Deception (there's only three). Golden Guile is the easiest Improved Deception item to get, and could also be the best, depending on your gear slots.

    Agony from CitW is the best Improved Deception weapon, but does not give +2 to Assassinate DC. What I do is have Agony in my main hand and eMG in my offhand. It's the hardest of the three weapons to get.

    Epic Philarian Spy Dagger is an alright weapon, but inferior to the other two. If you have to use it for Improved Deception, use it. ID is just that good. I'm not sure if this would necessarily be easier to get than eMG: it depends on your luck with seals and shards.
    Last edited by Qezuzu; 03-22-2013 at 12:37 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member rabrams99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    391

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Sneak attack applies in the following situations:
    Mob is not focused on you
    Mob is helpless (held, stunned, or has a stat that has been reduced to 0, among other effects)
    Mob is blind (a reason why radiance is so highly valued for rogues)
    Mob has been bluffed recently
    Mob has been struck with a Deception proc recently

    Most bosses and trash mobs have 0% fortification. Sneak attack works fine on them. What you want fort penetration for is raid bosses, who can have up to 80% fortification. It is also useful for undead and elementals: these mobs are immune to sneak attack even with fort penetration, but can be debuffed by the Shadowdancer capstone such that they are no longer immune to sneak attack. This debuff, however, does not remove their fortification, thus the fort pen.

    There are more than a few sources of fort penetration:
    25% from Precision (an easy source of a lot of penetration, which is why it's recommended)
    10% from Opportunist (a rogue special feat)
    15% from Shadowdancer enhancements
    10% from Grandmaster of Flower enhancements (requires a level 4 twist)
    10% from armor piercing items (15% from Flawless Black Dragonscale Armor, 20% for upgraded armor)

    There might be a couple more that I'm missing, but this is about it. This does not include debuffs like Improved Sunder and FvS Shield of Condemnation.

    All of these stack additively, e.g. Precision + Opportunist + Flawless Black Armor = 50% penetration.

    Yes. However, this duration is so short that it's not very useful for getting damage (unless the mobs you're attacking have little HP). It's still a good skill to have though: bluff pulling mobs is very handy if you don't want to get swarmed, and if your deception items or radiance items just aren't procing then you can use it to get some damage.

    Improved Deception is a must have. Both weapons can proc, and you can wear an item for even more procs. I'm not sure if multiple items can stack. At TWF speed, Improved Deception procs a LOT, enough to keep a mob vulnerable to sneak attack until you kill it. Deception works on every single mob.

    An added bonus is that deceived mobs will turn around. If you're procing fast enough, they might be rendered unable to attack. This is especially useful for bosses. With haste boost, you're attacking so fast that it's easy to lock the boss down, not letting it attack or cast spells. This does not work on raid bosses and some types of mobs (dragons, for one).

    Epic Midnight's Greetings are a good weapon for Improved Deception (there's only three). Golden Guile is the easiest Improved Deception item to get, and could also be the best, depending on your gear slots.

    Agony from CitW is the best Improved Deception weapon, but does not give +2 to Assassinate DC. What I do is have Agony in my main hand and eMG in my offhand. It's the hardest of the three weapons to get.

    Epic Philarian Spy Dagger is an alright weapon, but inferior to the other two. If you have to use it for Improved Deception, use it. ID is just that good. I'm not sure if this would necessarily be easier to get than eMG: it depends on your luck with seals and shards.
    Wow great info, thanks for taking the time.

    So sneak attack damage is added on at the end of the weapon string damage. So it is not affected by crits and such?
    Thando, Aarag, Keallen, Kuthroat, Sureshott, Skullcrusher

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    1,039

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Improved Deception is a must have. Both weapons can proc, and you can wear an item for even more procs. I'm not sure if multiple items can stack. At TWF speed, Improved Deception procs a LOT, enough to keep a mob vulnerable to sneak attack until you kill it. Deception works on every single mob.

    An added bonus is that deceived mobs will turn around. If you're procing fast enough, they might be rendered unable to attack. This is especially useful for bosses. With haste boost, you're attacking so fast that it's easy to lock the boss down, not letting it attack or cast spells. This does not work on raid bosses and some types of mobs (dragons, for one).

    Epic Midnight's Greetings are a good weapon for Improved Deception (there's only three). Golden Guile is the easiest Improved Deception item to get, and could also be the best, depending on your gear slots.

    Agony from CitW is the best Improved Deception weapon, but does not give +2 to Assassinate DC. What I do is have Agony in my main hand and eMG in my offhand. It's the hardest of the three weapons to get.

    Epic Philarian Spy Dagger is an alright weapon, but inferior to the other two. If you have to use it for Improved Deception, use it. ID is just that good. I'm not sure if this would necessarily be easier to get than eMG: it depends on your luck with seals and shards.
    Just to add, Improved Deception is also on Backstabber Gloves(epic, in GH) and Seal of House Avithoul. I'll also say that Golden Guile, due to the bugged drops of the Spinner chain, can be VERY hard to complete. The former two items are much easier to attain, though Seal will be expensive to trade for and Backstabber gloves on EH and EE can be too. Very useful for weapon versatility.
    ME BARB, ME SMA-ok I stand here with pretty blue lines around me. ok I take damage. ok bye.

  10. #10
    Community Member benneburg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    215

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rabrams99 View Post
    Wow great info, thanks for taking the time.

    So sneak attack damage is added on at the end of the weapon string damage. So it is not affected by crits and such?
    Yup, no multiplier for SA on crits. DR can dig into your SA if you don't bypass it or deal enough weapon damage, so just bypass it when possible.


    benne^
    We're not here on a quest to rescue a man named Arlos, we're here to punish some Kobolds.

  11. #11
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    4,710

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator View Post
    Just to add, Improved Deception is also on Backstabber Gloves(epic, in GH) and Seal of House Avithoul. I'll also say that Golden Guile, due to the bugged drops of the Spinner chain, can be VERY hard to complete. The former two items are much easier to attain, though Seal will be expensive to trade for and Backstabber gloves on EH and EE can be too. Very useful for weapon versatility.
    I have not made the Epic Golden Guile, but the base Golden Guile has Improved Deception as well and I have found that quite easy to pull.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload