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Thread: Gnome

  1. #1
    Community Member aarona's Avatar
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    Question Gnome

    Just recently started reading the d&d guide hand book and discovered the Gnome. I think it would be awesome to have Gnomes, since they are good ingineers people it would be a realy good race for the arty what do you guys think. Maybe we cant convince them to throw this race in. I mean after all the game is based off the pen and paper style.

    Let me know what you guys think.
    THANKS

  2. #2
    Community Member Tres_Tacos's Avatar
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    Wink

    Gnomes you say? As a new race? Why what a brilliant and original idea!

  3. #3
    Community Member aarona's Avatar
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    Haha yeah i think that should be the newest race to complete the ddo races maybe lol

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    Default gnomes

    Unfortunately I don't think we will see any new races or classes until after the enhancement pass. They have way to much code to re-write as it is. They are working on it. I'm sure they have several races and classes "in the works".

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    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    This has been brought up repeatedly since the game was in closed beta. Personally, since this game STARTED in Eberron, I'd rather see the more Eberron-specific races like Kalashtar and Shifter introduced first. I don't believe that will happen, but it'd be my preference.

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    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Wow! great new idea. Let's add some details to it....

    INT +2
    STR -2
    A +1 DC to all Illusion Spells
    An enhancement line to boost crafting ability - 3 Tiers, Each adding 5 levels

    BRING HOME THE GNOMES!
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    It would be nice. Eberron Gnomes have a lot of flavour.

    But just stop a moment and thing of what they actually bring in terms of game terms:

    Small like halflings - but would need to be distinguishable from them.

    +2 Con, -2 Str. Not bad for a caster. I think that you may be getting confused with "Tinker" Gnomes from Dagonlance setting with the +2 Int. There is good justification for giving them Cha bonus instead though.

    +DC to illusion spells? There are a only a couple of illusion spells in the game that actually have saving throws.

    Speak with burrowing mammals? Irrelevant in an MMO.
    Innate spell abilities? None of those spells exist in DDO.

    Bonus to Alchemy? Doesn't exist in DDO. In Eberron, its the Humans of House Cannith who are the crafters: The Gnomes hold the secrets of elemental binding due to their knowledge of information, not crafting.

    Bonuses against kobolds? Rather niche.
    Defensive bonuses against Giants? Same as Dwarves.
    Favoured class: Bard - Well, we could do with more of them.

    In all, nothing much there really distinguishes them and makes them stand out as unique from the other races in the non-roleplaying context that DDO is. When rendered down to pure game mechanics, the race just doesn't have a niche like the others.
    If you want to roleplay a Gnome, play a halfling, and just call yourself a gnome.

  8. #8
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    It would be nice. Eberron Gnomes have a lot of flavour.

    But just stop a moment and thing of what they actually bring in terms of game terms:

    Small like halflings - but would need to be distinguishable from them.

    +2 Con, -2 Str. Not bad for a caster. I think that you may be getting confused with "Tinker" Gnomes from Dagonlance setting with the +2 Int. There is good justification for giving them Cha bonus instead though.

    +DC to illusion spells? There are a only a couple of illusion spells in the game that actually have saving throws.

    Speak with burrowing mammals? Irrelevant in an MMO.
    Innate spell abilities? None of those spells exist in DDO.

    Bonus to Alchemy? Doesn't exist in DDO. In Eberron, its the Humans of House Cannith who are the crafters: The Gnomes hold the secrets of elemental binding due to their knowledge of information, not crafting.

    Bonuses against kobolds? Rather niche.
    Defensive bonuses against Giants? Same as Dwarves.
    Favoured class: Bard - Well, we could do with more of them.

    In all, nothing much there really distinguishes them and makes them stand out as unique from the other races in the non-roleplaying context that DDO is. When rendered down to pure game mechanics, the race just doesn't have a niche like the others.
    If you want to roleplay a Gnome, play a halfling, and just call yourself a gnome.
    Stats are part of the game. But, aside for the small part of the player population dedicated to min/max above all else, players generally just don't care about +2 this versus +2 that.

    The microscopic fraction of players who might view halfling-roleplayed-as-gnome as a good choice are free to make that choice for themselves. For the rest of us, it's about roleplaying gnomes as gnomes -- and nothing else will do -- all the way to Eberron and beyond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Wow! great new idea. Let's add some details to it....

    INT +2
    STR -2
    A +1 DC to all Illusion Spells
    An enhancement line to boost crafting ability - 3 Tiers, Each adding 5 levels

    BRING HOME THE GNOMES!
    Sorry gnomes by 3.x are a con plus race not a int bonus race

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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    Stats are part of the game. But, aside for the small part of the player population dedicated to min/max above all else, players generally just don't care about +2 this versus +2 that.
    Are you really sure that the proportion of the playerbase who emphasise roleplay over "gaming" are the majority?
    They might not be all min/maxers, but most people seem to generate characters with races that either synergise well, or that have an interesting character concept. Actual roleplay seems to be a very small proportion.

    The microscopic fraction of players who might view halfling-roleplayed-as-gnome as a good choice are free to make that choice for themselves. For the rest of us, it's about roleplaying gnomes as gnomes -- and nothing else will do -- all the way to Eberron and beyond.
    If Roleplaying is the main aim, it won't matter that your "Gnome" had a Dex bonus rather than a Con bonus when you created her. It will be how you roleplay her that will give her her identity. The only issue will be the looks, which are broadly similar.

    To start a more constructive discussion: How would you translate Eberron Gnomes into DDO game mechanics as a distinct and unique race in terms of stats and enhancements?

  11. #11
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    Are you really sure that the proportion of the playerbase who emphasise roleplay over "gaming" are the majority? ...

    They might not be all min/maxers, but most people seem to generate characters with races that either synergise well, or that have an interesting character concept. Actual roleplay seems to be a very small proportion.
    For most players, both roleplaying and min/max probably take too much work to be worth the bother. Most players are likely to "satisfice" for their race / class choices, just as we tend to do in our daily lives.

    On a related note, a "race + class" character concept will often line up with racial bonuses for stats. But, that is as likely as not driven by stat bonuses and penalties lining up with our general expectations about what particular races are likely to do well, which have been reflected in how DDO has been made; popularity and stat configurations are driven by a common cause, in other words, rather than one driving the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    If Roleplaying is the main aim, it won't matter that your "Gnome" had a Dex bonus rather than a Con bonus when you created her. It will be how you roleplay her that will give her her identity. The only issue will be the looks, which are broadly similar.

    To start a more constructive discussion: How would you translate Eberron Gnomes into DDO game mechanics as a distinct and unique race in terms of stats and enhancements?
    Here are a couple of options for gnomes ...

    -2 STR, +2 CON (gnomes are hardy and hardworking)
    -2 STR, +2 CHA (gnomes often have gifts as bards)

    They might have bonuses for traps / search / spot, if they're often tinkerers, and they might get some "flavor" bonuses when playing an artificer. Dragonmark feats could focus on illusions, even if that overlaps with elves.

    Various profiles can make sense, providing distinctive advantages and disadvantages, when compared to other races.

    PS: It would make sense to have a variety of gnomes, just as we have variety in elves (ie: regular + drow).

  12. #12
    Community Member evilgardengnome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aarona View Post
    Just recently started reading the d&d guide hand book and discovered the Gnome. I think it would be awesome to have Gnomes, since they are good ingineers people it would be a realy good race for the arty what do you guys think. Maybe we cant convince them to throw this race in. I mean after all the game is based off the pen and paper style.

    Let me know what you guys think.
    THANKS
    Yes, I should be added to the game.

    My stats would have to be-
    +2 Str
    +2 Dex
    +2 Con
    +2 Int
    +2 Wis
    +2 Cha

    That makes +12 to AWESOME!

    ...and add evil alignment. Just because.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    For most players, both roleplaying and min/max probably take too much work to be worth the bother. Most players are likely to "satisfice" for their race / class choices, just as we tend to do in our daily lives.

    On a related note, a "race + class" character concept will often line up with racial bonuses for stats. But, that is as likely as not driven by stat bonuses and penalties lining up with our general expectations about what particular races are likely to do well, which have been reflected in how DDO has been made; popularity and stat configurations are driven by a common cause, in other words, rather than one driving the other.
    Yep. There needs to be a reason for people to decide to play a Gnome rather than a different race, but to keep them balanced within the game.
    The issue is that most of the things that makes Gnomes distinct and interesting don't translate well to an MMO focused purely on running through dungeons killing everything using the DDO system rules.

    This gives either something that doesn't really stand out as a distinct race, or the temptation to throw out the actual background and flavour of the race to create something called gnome with distinct traits but not recognisable as the actual race depicted.

    Here are a couple of options for gnomes ...

    -2 STR, +2 CON (gnomes are hardy and hardworking)
    -2 STR, +2 CHA (gnomes often have gifts as bards)

    They might have bonuses for traps / search / spot, if they're often tinkerers, and they might get some "flavor" bonuses when playing an artificer. Dragonmark feats could focus on illusions, even if that overlaps with elves.
    The Zil aren't really tinkerers, they are information-gatherers. Bonuses to Bluff, Haggle, Diplomacy, possibly Listen would probably fit better. (Kinda steps on the half-elf's toes then.)
    Bonuses to some Bardic abilities sound good, but there needs to be good reasons to play a non-bard gnome as well.
    Bonuses to faction favour would fit, but would be hard to balance.

    Gnomes have the Dragonmark of Scribing: - it focuses on communication and writing. With DDO's emphasis on the offensive and buff spells, I can't think of any that would really fit for the Least and Lesser. Greater could get away with one of the Symbol spells perhaps.

    Various profiles can make sense, providing distinctive advantages and disadvantages, when compared to other races.
    Such as what?

    PS: It would make sense to have a variety of gnomes, just as we have variety in elves (ie: regular + drow).
    Not really. The three cultures of elves for example all have the same base stats. Drow are a distinct offshoot. Gnomes are more homogeneous than the elves are in general.

  14. #14

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    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a

    "The Zil use the standard gnome statistics presented in the Player's Handbook. Their unusual culture is reflected by the fact that many gnomes who would be commoners in other nations instead possess a single level of expert, with training in Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy, and a number of languages in addition to the Craft or Profession skills they use to earn a living.

    A surprising number of gnomes rise above the level of expert to become bards. While gnomish entertainers are celebrated across Khorvaire, not all bards are entertainers, and many Zil bards do not have any ranks of Perform. But even without the powers of bardic music, the class reflects many things common to Zil culture. The skill selection is highly appropriate for the Zil, who focus on social, knowledge, and language skills. Bardic knowledge represents the gnomish fascination with knowledge in all forms. And the magic of the bard is an extension of the innate racial gifts of the gnome -- magic that lies latent in the blood of the race. Thus Zil chroniclers, politicians, mediators, and barristers are just as likely to have bard levels as actual entertainers."

    Of course, that's all subject to Turbine's implementation.

    I think the key points are: +2 CON, -2 STR; magical race, predisposed to bards and sorcs; famous for skills with elemental binding in artifice; thirst for knowledge and drawn to intrigue.

    "Artifice, Alchemy, and the Arcane

    Magic runs through the blood of the gnomes -- a faint gift of illusion that some attribute to the distant touch of Thelanis. Many gnomes develop this talent without formal training. Levels of bard or sorcerer reflect this, and the gnomes typically focus their studying on enchantment, illusion, and conjuration spells. The insatiable curiosity of the gnomes has led to the pursuit of artifice and arcane magic. Zil artificers are justly famed, but House Cannith possesses the most gifted artificers in Khorvaire, and Arcanix is still the greatest seat of wizardry. But Zil gnomes are unsurpassed in two fields: alchemy and elemental binding. Some say that the Zil wrested the secrets of elemental binding from the ruins of Xen'drik, and they jealously guard this secret. No rule in the Eberron Campaign Setting book stops a PC of any race from taking the Bind Elemental feat. However, a DM may require a PC to acquire this feat in Zilargo or Xen'drik. In addition, the Zil gnomes consider this knowledge to be a national resource. An adventurer producing an occasional suit of elemental-bound armor is left alone, but if a PC starts producing airships and thus threatening the Zil monopoly on the art, he may be targeted by agents of the Trust."

    I think Gnomes should already have their presence established in Xen'drik per the campaign setting so I refute those who say shifters and kalashtar before gnomes because of the setting -- Stormreach and Xen'drik important to Eberron gnomes.

    The potential I see adding them as a race is the predisposition towards arcane classes and the potential that would come with adding more illusions to the bard and wiz/sorc spell lists. Based on setting flavor I would not rule out artifice bonuses either.

    Just a repeat of my 2cp and a /signed on gnomes.
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  15. #15
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    -2 STR, +2 CON seems kind of "meh".

    -2 STR. +2 CHA is interesting, it's thematic in terms of what gnomes seem to be good at doing in Eberron, and it would probably make gnomes quite popular because people's expectations about what Eberron gnome would be good at doing would line up with the stat bonuses chosen for them.

    I don't think we need to look much deeper than that. What stats to give gnomes doesn't rank up there with world peace or figuring out how to deal with environmental degradation and world hunger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbar View Post
    This has been brought up repeatedly since the game was in closed beta. Personally, since this game STARTED in Eberron, I'd rather see the more Eberron-specific races like Kalashtar and Shifter introduced first. I don't believe that will happen, but it'd be my preference.
    Considering that gnomes have a dragonmark of their own (Mark of Scribing) and they are linked to the destiny of the world. I would think they are more important than races that are not linked to the prophecy. They are also closely linked to Kundrak (they actually run the bank business together, where kundrak provides the vaults and sivis the required papers) and the mailing system.

    So I would rather see Gnomes implemented before purely flavor races like Kalashtar and Shifter. Especially since Kalashtar would only be logical if psionics would be implemented (them being psionic race and having some psionic racial abilities).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    Gnomes have the Dragonmark of Scribing: - it focuses on communication and writing. With DDO's emphasis on the offensive and buff spells, I can't think of any that would really fit for the Least and Lesser. Greater could get away with one of the Symbol spells perhaps.
    Bonus to caster level of scrolls/scroll UMD should be enough to make it viable for any scroll caster or UMD user. Then illusion or enhancement dc bonuses and you are set to go.

    Hell give greater dragonmark the ability to cast scrolls with caster level of character level and we might actually have the first mark worth taking :P Though it would not be that balanced after lamina, where dragonmarks are racial enhancements.

    Melee classes should be happy enough with dodge bonuses and size bonuses. Gnomes are not meant to be great warriors anyways (there is a reason why the weight/size categories exist in modern contact sports).

  18. #18

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    The +2 Con for gnomes in 3.Xe is a highly unpopular oft house ruled change whereas every other edition has gnomes which +Int which makes FAR more sense for a race know for being technologically and magically (specifically illusuion) inclined. This is Turbine's campaign and as the DM it's up to them to realize when something is hurting the game +2Con/-2Str Gnomes would be useless whereas +2Int/-2Str would be popular with alot of classes/builds (ie. Artificer, Wizard, Int-Based Mech or Assassin,etc.)

    Sidenote; Tinker Gnomes are actually +2Int/Dex, -2 Wis/Str and would make perfect additions to house Cannith...especially knowing that eberron is supposed to be a relatively open setting as far as using content from other settings

  19. #19
    Community Member ~kruemeli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khatzhas View Post
    If you want to roleplay a Gnome, play a halfling, and just call yourself a gnome.
    That would be like playing a halfling but calling yourself a GOBLIN! o.O
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  20. #20
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    In the Shadowfell Conspiracy, DDO's new expansion, one of the settings is Wheloon. According to WikiFR http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wheloon, Gnomes make up 4% of the population. Just saying.....
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