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  1. #401
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Yep, and fort is available on more than belts/rings. I know I've seen it on bracers, maybe other stuff too. And the percentages are no longer 25/75/100. I've seen everything from 20% to 105%.
    gloves, boots, necklaces... seen it on everything you can equip now.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHero5 View Post
    Spent some time with the enhancement tree pdf and Ron's char planner for feats and sketched this out. 50/50 split; feats by level would be Toughness(1); Favored Enemy(2); Point Blank Shot(3); Precision(6); Manyshot(9); Favored Enemy(10); Mental Toughness(12) Gtr 2 Wep Fighting(15);???. I have 8 skill points on Ranger, enough to keep Heal, Hide; Move Silent, Spot, Search, and Disable up to full. Bluff, Balance, Unlock, Jump will fall back a bit. UMD is something I always dither over, I don't think it will make a huge difference in this group so its out. (Standard rogues SHOULD take UMD) Ranger gives me a wider weapon selection and free Two Weapon Fighting. There are attractive enhancements in Deepwood Stalker; some sneak attack and improved healing. Halfling will give me Luck, Stealth and Cunning/Guile. This gets me to around level 12-15. Coments, questions, advice all welcome.

    I agree with Fedora that dodge will probably help you out much more than toughness now. You can just skip toughness and take point blank shot first and crank up your sneak attack dice. You don't have to be a traditional twf rogue, you can put everything into bow enhancements and things like dodge, mobility, etc. Assassinate still works just fine with one weapon in your hand instead of two.


    Now that dragonmarks only require one feat instead of three for the full line, you might actually consider taking the dragonmark of healing instead (instead of something like mental toughness) and stay a pure rogue.


    UMD is probably won't be useful to you outside of one or two items you might find (although do they even make race restricted items any more?) since we can't stock up on scrolls and wands and such. Another reason to possibly consider the dragonmark since, without going rogue/ranger, you won't really have any means to appreciably heal yourself if things get nasty.

  3. #403
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Revised feats...

    Point Blank Shot(1), Favored Enemy(2), Precise Shot(3), Precision(6), Manyshot(9) Favored Enemy(10), Dodge or Mental Toughness(12). Mental adds 65 sp vs avoiding damage, it's a long way away. Dragonmark is interesting, but no shrine limits it utility. Does the heal skill add anything to your heal spells?


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHero5 View Post
    Point Blank Shot(1), Favored Enemy(2), Precise Shot(3), Precision(6), Manyshot(9) Favored Enemy(10), Dodge or Mental Toughness(12). Mental adds 65 sp vs avoiding damage, it's a long way away. Dragonmark is interesting, but no shrine limits it utility. Does the heal skill add anything to your heal spells?
    Yes, each rank in heal skill will add 1 SP in positive energy.


    Even with our no shrine rule, you could conceivably get 8 CLW, 6 CSW, and 4 heals per adventure if you put three APs into it. That's some pretty sweet backup healing right there. 4 heals are almost like 4 lay on hands. Not too shabby.

  5. #405
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    Default Thanks for all the good times!

    Well guys, looks like I'm following Fedora out the door as well.

    Thanks for letting me be part of your group for the last few months! It's been a fun group, and I've had a great time playing with all of you!

    Take care.

    Cadrod/Mansoor

  6. #406
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    (although do they even make race restricted items any more?

    No its changed to masterful craftmanship same as really, lets you use 2 levels lower
    OR
    you could consider using a cursed item lol
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  7. #407
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Restart of Storm...

    I'm posting this to see if there is interest in a restricted gear, low pressure, quest oriented group. The goal is to create a non Monty Haul D&D campaign. There are 3 of the original Storm players with interest and one new possibility. The mechanics of the group have not been decided but there will start with no AH buying, crafting, twinking, outside grouping, ship buffs or merchant use except for consumable items.

    I'm going to layout a number of restrictions and rules with choices and observations that I've been party too for the past year while participating in 2 different restricted gear campaigns. I am presenting them with little or no preference for one type over another unless I advocate one by putting it in ().
    Gear can be limited either by a formula of gear value per level or limiting the access to chests. The first method is complex and needs a scaling mechanism because the quest difficulty increases faster than character level. People also 'bank' an item till they can equip it. The second method lets you keep and use everything you see, except you won't see very much.

    Shrine use. THACO doesn’t and Storm didn’t use shrines. Casters had to horde their blue bar and save it for the end or emergency. Conversely, the rest shrine could be used to represent ‘holing up’ or getting out and coming back in the next day. In return, (Echos of Power shouldn’t be allowed). Can’t be enforced, but you should stop casting once it starts. (I would advocate not using the resurrection shrine)

    Rogues are a problem because if you play that you will succeed against a trap less than 100% of the time, quite often, your questing will end at a trap the party can't get by and a dead rogue. The rogue suffers if the gear limits are consumed by spot/search/disable/unlock gear and feat/enhancements to make up for low skill values. Or the rogue could be granted 'bonus gear rules' to get the success rate close to 100%.

    Breakables, potions, wands, scrolls, and collectibles. They have a small chance to add gear and are difficult to share equally. They do add a bit of self healing and buffs. Eternal wands give casters a continuous attack and will not run dry at a reasonable pace; and contribute a great deal to SP conservation. Will become underpowered rather quickly.

    You won’t have to belong to THACO. Vip or premium, you should have access to quest packs. 32+ builds are accepted; TR sorry, no. Questing will be somewhere between 7-11 pm EST on weeknights or some time on weekend. Day and exact time to be determined. My main server is Thelanis but, I’m not ruling out another server.

    Optimum race vs all the same. There has been some lighthearted discussion about being all the same race and look. Dwarf, drow and Halfling lead the race request. Starting stats will be rolled; you get to allocate the results to the abilities you want so no 18’s and 8’s. Any enhancement that you can take will be allowed. Original rules for multi class dictated even splits which made them less then optimal; splashes lead to established builds. Any class vs only free. (I favor only free) The premium classes are powerful at low level and each character should have a near equal contribution.

    I see the group doing at level quests at elite at low level and gradually moving back to hard; letting the gear level be the controlling factor. The goal is a challenge with a reasonable chance at success. This is not a group to get favor or advance; doing the quest and having fun is the most important thing. It’s taken me 18 months to get to level 10 in THACO and about 5 months in Storm to get to level 7.

    This is not my group; I’d like to get a consensus on rules that are simple and concentrate on the dungeon without worrying about hitting a max numbers or having a weapon for every different foe.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  8. #408
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Some thoughts

    Limited magic - but not as severe as THACO.

    Of the several different methods of restricting magic items that I have encountered, I thought the most satisfying for everyone was Minimum Level [ML] x#.
    It became apparent that a scale was needed to keep up with the innate difficulty scaling in the quests as they moved from lowbie to mid to high levels. This difficulty scaling is separate from the Normal-Hard-Elite choices you get, but it is very apparent as one progresses to higher level quests. So aprapos, I suggest:

    Level 1-5 = ML x2
    Level 6-10 = ML x3
    Level 11-15 = ML x4
    Level 16-20 = ML x5

    Although these may SEEM to be overly generous - especially at higher levels [for the purist], once you begin to really look at ML levels on items - especially class "effective" items - you begin to see that there are still choices that you must make. Do you pick "effective" weapons at the expense of "effective" wearables that boost stats or magic, do you pick defense vs offense, do you specialize at the cost of overall "effectiveness"?

    This method does two important things:
    - it limits magic items, which is a good thing - because it makes choices and choices are always interesting for game play
    - it does not limit choices, which is a good thing - because limited choices cause frustration or boredom

    Wands and scrolls fall into these catagories. Wands could be purchasable but their ML levels count towards total ML. Scrolls should be limited to just what is found in quest and transcribed into a spell book.

    In conjunction with limited magic - shrine use - or the non use.
    Healing at shrines is not even necessary. No it's not. There will be at least 1 character in the party that will have some kind of healing, and most well thought out parties will have more. This group will not be zerg power playing. There will not be a real need for that much healing, with SMART - i.e careful - game play.
    While casters may say that shrine use is a good thing to replenish the blue bar, it too is something that can totally suck the challenge - the game play - out of a quest, especially at low levels. I personally have found it more interesting to run through a quest with nothing but Echoes of Power and spells that require less than 12 spell points. However not everyone would. Plus any spell over 5th tier costs more than Echoes will fuel. And higher level quests will necessarily require casters to keep up their blue bar, or become useless as casters. Some may say that the caster should then pull out a weapon and melee/range. Really? They are not dedicated melee-ers/range-ers. They are cast-ers. They cast magic. A dedicated wizard or sorcerer should pull out a weapon for last ditch self defense only. However if you "build" a character to be melee capable then good for you, don't complain about running out of magic. So all that apropos, I suggest:

    Level 1-5 = no shrine use - Echoes of Power will keep you running
    Level 6-10 = 1 shrine use per quest for mana restoration only - caster needs to be nearly fully healed before use
    Level 11-15 = 2 shrine use per quest for mana restoration only - caster needs to be nearly fully healed before use
    Level 16-20 = no shrine use - by this time a dedicated caster should have SLA's and/or the ability to restore some magic

    This method does the same two important things as above
    - it limits magic
    - it doesn't limit choices

    The third big thing is Death consequence. To BE or NOT to BE. If one desires to play permadeath, there are plenty of guilds out there. This play style advocates LESS MAGIC, LESS GEAR - MORE CHARACTER.

    There have been countless debates and ideas suggested in the THACO post about death consequence. What some liked others didn't and there was never a consensus. We finally settled on the dead character - unable to be raised - exiting the quest and the loss of XP. AND the point becomes moot once a Cleric or Paladin can raise dead. So apropos I suggest:

    choice 1) in low levels, a dead character unable to be raised - exits the quest and loses XP
    choice 2) in low levels, a dead character unable to be raised - rides in the pack of another and at end of quest destroys everything equipped

    This methods gives two choices [choices are good things]
    1) keep your stuff but lose XP
    2) lose your stuff but keep XP

    Once a character can be raised in quest, then a "sacrifice" of 1 equipped item could be the cost of the divine granting power to be raised.

    As for Races and Classes - we all know that the premium Races and Classes are overpowered, that's what they were designed to be. However - instead of eliminating them I suggest that they be "limited". They must be multiclassed with at least 6 levels if dual and 4 levels if triple.

    And as for multiclassing in general - no "splashes" - at least 5 levels deep for a multiclass.

    I know that the above suggestions are not in accord with the current THACO guidelines, and will be altered or discarded by debate. However I think that as a game play style it offers choices that most regular DDO players might be able to conform to that hesitate to attempt the style of THACO.

    I suggest that - so as not to be compared to or compete with THACO as an adjunct to THACO - it should be a separate group from the THACO guild entirely. Whether this means it's own guild or just a static group that meets weekly is up to the players.

    Those three of us remaining in STORM have agreed to roll up new characters starting in Korthos [using the same old school method of 3d6 dice rolls with allocation into stats].

    Those interested in joining a new static group that uses limited magic and NON ZERGING gameplay are invited to post their intentions.

  9. #409
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Some more thoughts

    Alot of this is culled from prior posts in this thread. We may wish to re-evaluate some of these things knowing what we know now, and understand that this group IS NOT intended to follow THACO guidelines.

    OR IS IT? It's important that we decide [those that remain of STORM and those that might wish to join] whether we follow THACO guidelines or adopt our own. The original intent was {IMO} to form an alternate group using gear and character restriction rules to introduce more challenge to the usual DDO Monty Haul game - similar to what THACO was doing on Wed night but more "accommodating" for players not looking for such severe restrictions or changing rule sets.

    Keep in mind that both THACO and STORM confronted the inevitable necessity to alter the rules as we advanced in levels.

    Because the inherent game mechanics make it necessary. This game SCALES.
    It scales quests by difficulty.
    It scales quests by level.
    It scales quests by number in party.
    It scales quests by gear and buffage.

    UNLESS PLAYING DDO STYLE - NO SIMPLE RULE SET, or FLAT COMPENSATION WILL WORK THROUGH OUT THE ENTIRE GAME.

    But there has been enough experimentation to implement a rule set that allows for scaling, that's also simple to remember and should satisfy everyone.

    So here are some thoughts to re-mull:

    Can our characters purchase any of the following from in game vendors:
    A- Potions? Any or specific kinds?
    B- Wands? Any or specific kinds?
    C- Scrolls?
    D- Gear from pawn vendors?
    E- Gear from in game vendors?
    F- Bags?
    G- Spell components?

    Can any potions, scrolls, and wands we find be allowed to be used and kept from session to session?
    Can our characters turn in collectibles for the rewards?
    Can our characters use the augment gems?
    Can we use found pots, wands, and/or scrolls? Is there any restriction to this?
    Can we sell loot in game? Barkeeps only? Vendors? Auction house?
    Can we use crafted items?
    At Quest completion, do you find your way out or Recall?
    Are all players in the group VIP/Premium and have access to all the content, or are we restricted to running F2P quests?
    Should there be a "No re-entry" guideline?


    Should -
    Weapon sets equipped and carried in pack be at most:

    - 2 main weapons
    - 2 secondary weapons [light at most]
    - 1 shield
    - 1 bow [xbow]
    - 1 quiver

    Should -
    each player only gets ONE article of gear for each armor/wearable equip slot. So ONE piece of armor, ONE pair of gloves, ONE cloak, ONE set of boots, etc.

    Should -
    fortification items (which almost becomes mandatory by level 7+) get reduced ML; we could say Light Fort item = 1, Moderate = 2, and Heavy = 3.

    Should -
    wands count as "1" regardless of the ML, since most wands are underpowered for the level, and mostly used to stretch the blue bar or increase cast rate.

    Should -
    we only allow "found" healing potions (any kind), and they do not count towards the magic item limitations. We can trade found potions of healing amongst members, but we cannot purchase from vendors or AH.

    or

    Healing/cure items can be obtained from collectors provided you got the collectables from questing. No collectables (or rewards from collectables) allowed from

    outside sources such as AH or alts.

    or

    Cure LIGHT wounds potions can be purchased as a "first aid" kit from potion vendors, and this is limited to 5 per character level, up to a maximum of 20 at level 4. Begining at level 5 you can purchase cure MODERATE potions in addition, maximum 1 per character level up to level 10. After maxing out at 20 cure lights and 10 cure moderates (by L10).

    Should -
    you happen to accumulate 400 favor for the Silver Flame, you may buy the potions they offer (200-400pp each). This should help offset a party that is melee heavy without divines, by the time you get the favor you will be running higher level quests. The 30 second duration of the penalties involved with using these potions (-10 all ability scores and effective -9 to all saves, also 50% slow with the more potent version) is balance against over-use, especially during a fight.


    Should -
    Quest Difficulty choice - be Normal, Hard or Elite:

    Normal difficulty - lessons learned - at level, makes trap damage minor, but also makes many enemies too easy to deal with. Low gear characters can manage with smart gameplay, barring undead or elementals which present real challenge. Consensus of many is that Normal is unchallenging in lowbie levels. However at higher levels with gear restriction Normal can become challenging.

    Hard difficulty - lessons learned - at 1 level below character traps hit harder, but require more emphasis from the trapper to achieve solutions, often to the detriment of the trapper being able to do anything else. Consensus of many is that Hard is not very challenging in lowbie levels but becomes challenging for mid levels, and in high levels would be challenging with gear restrictions.

    Elite difficulty - lessons learned - even on lowbie quests the dev's have stacked the deck as far as trap damage - one shot kills for those without serious BUFFS and or gear mitigation. Consensus of many is that Elite is challenging at level for most of lowbie levels, very challenging for mid levels and 1 or 2 levels below in high levels.

    The choice of Normal, Hard, Elite can be decided as the players advance in xp. The real factor in deciding will be the gear possessed and the abilities of the group as a whole. Trying to stick with a flat Normal only or Elite only will only cause more problems than they solve in the long run.

    Should -
    Character stats be "rolled" before character creation by another member of the group. 3d6 rolled 9 times, the highest and lowest thrown out, the remaining 7 are picked from to allocate to stats.

    Should -
    Allowed races include everything f2p [not those puchasable - with the exception of unlockables Drow and FvS].

    or

    All allowed but purchasable races must be multiclassed to limit power.

    Should -
    Allowed classes include everything f2p [not those purchasable].

    Should -
    Multiclassing be allowed but with restrictions -

    Old school
    Non-humans can have up to 3 classes and must level up alternately between classes, with no more than 2 levels difference between classes. Not ideal power-wise, but stays within the spirit of PnP D&D. Humans [and thus human hybrids] can only dual class and must reach a minimum of 6 levels before changing classes, and that in reverse means if you are going to change classes you would have to do it by level 15 (for a 14/6 split). Once you change, you cannot change back. Maximum of 2 classes.

    or

    Generic to all races
    at least 6 levels deep for a 20 level build and classes must be within 2 levels of each other until that point.

    Should -
    Ammunition such as arrows and bolts do not count towards magic, but you can only use what you find (but buying normal ammunition from vendors is fine).

    be allowed to save items you acquire in your bank for later use when you are higher level.

    No shrines!

    No zerging, party stays together and works together. Strategy encouraged over racing to completion.

    No re-entries. Finish the quest or exit the way you came in if the party becomes too weak to complete.

    ?Recalls only allowed upon quest completion.


    Question to the remaining STORM members. Do we need to start another thread advertising the restart or hope people will stop to look in here?

  10. #410
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Limited magic - but not as severe as THACO.

    Actually for the first 7 months Storm was using much more severe magic limitations than THACO.


    Also, except for trappers, gear really isn't an issue until mid-high levels when enemy DR really becomes noticeable. Even then you can feasibly complete this game on normal difficulty with nothing more than a +1 weapon and a few spells.


    No rest shrines is the largest hurdle, especially if you choose not to use echoes of power (and I agree EoP is pretty cheesy). No resting really restricts the party's ability to heal itself. Which is exactly why DMs allowed you to rest in PnP. If I were to do something like STORM again, I'd suggest to allow one rest shrine per quest in longer quests and allow X potions/hams/lasagnas per quest (maybe 5 per character).


    I've played in enough static and PD groups now that I really believe the rules for low magic groups can be simple and consistent without a lot of tweaking or weird 'if this, then that' rules which change every few levels. I think it's easier (and more fun) just to set the rules at the start and go as far as you possibly can with that rule set. Everything in the game changes so frequently (loot, spells, animations, DCs, etc) that if you try to find some perfect balance, you end up focusing more on chasing rainbows than having fun playing the game.

  11. #411
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Default Even more thoughts

    Actually for the first 7 months Storm was using much more severe magic limitations than THACO.

    Agreed, we were. I kind of liked it. I thought it was more interesting to have to choose what kind of items I was going to equip.

    Also, except for trappers, gear really isn't an issue until mid-high levels when enemy DR really becomes noticeable. Even then you can feasibly complete this game on normal difficulty with nothing more than a +1 weapon and a few spells.

    Again, I agree - on NORMAL. The only problems I have with playing on ELITE is the traps. It creates a cascade of problems from necessary gear for the trapper, to high buffs of resistance, to issues of dying needlessly for those of us with severe lag isssues.
    I know that MOST traps can be timed and got through, but overlapping traps or stacked traps plus stuttering lag will ding me every time. I'd rather traps HURT than KILL. Which is why I prefer HARD or NORMAL.

    No rest shrines is the largest hurdle, especially if you choose not to use echoes of power (and I agree EoP is pretty cheesy). No resting really restricts the party's ability to heal itself. Which is exactly why DMs allowed you to rest in PnP. If I were to do something like STORM again, I'd suggest to allow one rest shrine per quest in longer quests and allow X potions/hams/lasagnas per quest (maybe 5 per character).

    I think EoP is perfect for limited magic use. It lets casters be casters for the duration of a quest without being a spamming god. The only problem with it is that higher tier spells won't be fueled by it.

    I would love to see the DEV's put in an enhancement line in all casters that did the following: 1st selection of enh. reduces characters base spell points by 25% but raises EoP by 25% [instead of 12 sp it's now 15] 2nd selection reduces base spell points by 50% but raises EoP by 50% [instead of 12 sp it's now 18] etc. etc. until EoP is 24%. This would allow all except top tier spells from being cast. It will reduce spamming spells because there is still the refill issue that could be lengthened to reduce the ability to spam. Casters become more like old school, they can cast but at a limited rate but aren't hobbled by a finite bar.

    A far as healing, any party should have enough healing via characters to keep others going, but some form of BYOH as a "first aid kit" would work.

    I've played in enough static and PD groups now that I really believe the rules for low magic groups can be simple and consistent without a lot of tweaking or weird 'if this, then that' rules which change every few levels. I think it's easier (and more fun) just to set the rules at the start and go as far as you possibly can with that rule set. Everything in the game changes so frequently (loot, spells, animations, DCs, etc) that if you try to find some perfect balance, you end up focusing more on chasing rainbows than having fun playing the game.

    Agreed. That's what I'm trying to achieve now. More input from vets who have capped and TR'd would be great. I want to set up a set of fairly simple rules that will remain STATIC for the duration, but will SCALE with the game and have that OLD SCHOOL FEEL. Something that will reduce the Monty Haul syndrome and the powerplay ZERG effect. Something that will allow a player to create a character, invest alot of time in that character and play that character to cap, without the dire consequence of PD.

  12. #412
    Community Member DrowsworD's Avatar
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    Default

    I have read most of the Storm and THAC0 threads and am intrigued by the concept of PNP DND in DDO. I looked at most of my characters with backpaks full of potions, weapons for every encounter and thought this is not right. When I was DM I scoffed at the monty-haulers we encountered at convention games and took quite a bit of flack from others when my game didn't allow them to carry dragon hoards of treasure in their backpacks.I missed out on THAC0 and Storm due to scheduling but would like to get involved with this re-boot. As a first suggestion you migth want to make a new forum topic as anyone looking to get into a newly forming group may pass this one by due ot its "age" and number of posts.I believe my Thelanis and Khyber slots are full but I have few characters on Sarlona and the others (I am not VIP but have a number of packs). As for scheduling. I mostly play Monday nights (~7-8pm EST) and late on Thursday/ Friday/Saturday nights.

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    Default My two cents

    I agree that the biggest problem with DDO is the monty-haul aspect. Limiting by a magic level algorithm fails the simplicity test. Limiting chests creates some drama, but you end up with characters that are loaded with magic (the wrong magic for their build, but still loaded). I don't like either option. I'm starting to think that the only solution is to eliminate the two major sources of loot - end rewards and treasure chests. Don't use 'em. Instead, the party leader could mail an amount of gold to each party member if they successfully complete their mission. Players could then use the money at any vendor (but not AH). That gives the leader the opportunity to adjust the power level by raising or lowering the amount of gold per mission. And also lets players actually get what they want. The smashables in the mission then represent the loot found onsite.

    Shrines are just a bad idea, from a to z.

    Zefjoe, I like your idea about enhancements for SP and Echoes.

    I think that Hard is the ideal difficulty setting. Elite traps are killer, Normal mobs are just too easy.
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-01-2013 at 07:08 PM.

  14. #414
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Alot of this is culled from prior posts in this thread. We may wish to re-evaluate some of these things knowing what we know now, and understand that this group IS NOT intended to follow THACO guidelines.

    OR IS IT? It's important that we decide [those that remain of STORM and those that might wish to join] whether we follow THACO guidelines or adopt our own. The original intent was {IMO} to form an alternate group using gear and character restriction rules to introduce more challenge to the usual DDO Monty Haul game - similar to what THACO was doing on Wed night but more "accommodating" for players not looking for such severe restrictions or changing rule sets.

    Keep in mind that both THACO and STORM confronted the inevitable necessity to alter the rules as we advanced in levels.

    Because the inherent game mechanics make it necessary. This game SCALES.
    It scales quests by difficulty.
    It scales quests by level.
    It scales quests by number in party.
    It scales quests by gear and buffage.

    UNLESS PLAYING DDO STYLE - NO SIMPLE RULE SET, or FLAT COMPENSATION WILL WORK THROUGH OUT THE ENTIRE GAME.
    I think the last sentence is most relevant. What has to be decided is how "hardcore" to a ruleset the group would be sticking. From reading through the past threads, playing in THACO and my own experience, I think flexibility is the way to go. You can come up with a KISS method of rules and bend them when and if things get too Hard/Easy. Does it seem the easy way out? Perhaps, but what this group is trying to accomplish is no easy task and I think it's may be the best compromise.

    With that said, here are my suggestions.

    Character generation should be simple but fair. The current point system offers the easiest solution. I would agree with a rolled system with choice on allocation of scores.
    Multi classing should be even split. I can't figure out a way around this without meta-gaming and I'm not firm on this point. I just hate multiclassing.
    Limit magic items to 1 per level and 1 per slot.
    Limit potions/wands/scrolls to 1 per level total.
    No AH, pawn or vendor usage. Money can be used for medium bags, spell components, repairs and bar grub.
    Collectable rewards are fair game. You earned them, you should benefit from them. They do count towards total magic item count.
    Augments can likewise be used. You earned them, slot em if ya got em. They do no count towards magic item count.
    No Cannith crafting. DDO trivializes making magic items and that should never be easy to do.

    Run every quest levels 1-10 on hard difficulty. No repeats. After that, group decides.
    Chests are found on a 1 in 10 on basic chests, 1-3 in 10 on Named or Bosses.
    No quest rewards can be taken.
    End rewards from chains may be taken, but count towards total magic item count. This seems reasonable from a RP and gameplay perspective. You have just done a old style PnP campaign, you deserve a reward. If I was playing PnP and I didn't get something for my effort, I'd be pretty ****ed at the DM.

    No rest shrine usage or 1 max per dungeon.
    No Res shrines - ever.
    Dead folks recall and sit it out.


    That's all I can think of now. I'll add more if I think of anything.

    Let me know what you think.

  15. #415
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    First off to DrowsworD. I thought the very same thing. A lot of readers might just assume its just STORM talk and not realize something new is afoot. I'll do a major new thread soon with the last few posts integrated into an opener. Old STORM picked Sunday night mainly because all had nothing else going on. Days are open for suggestion to all who show interest.

    Second, Magiker. I really tried to keep the scaling algorithm [wow, bonus points for that ] simple. Levels are just quartered to 20 and each quarter {5 levels} goes up 1 ML. Easy. The question is - is it allowing to much magic? And I mean through out the game - low levels to high levels.

    Lastly Varhann. Flexibility is definitely what I'm trying to put in. But once a consensus is reached - before any characters are rolled up - by those interested in playing, the "ruleset" should be left alone. That's why I keep asking for vets advice about these suggestions. I've never played to cap. I've never TR'd. We need something that scales, is fair for all player types and classes, has that old school feel to it, is interesting and offers a challenge.


    I'm open to any advice about higher level play. But keep in mind that this playstyle/group isn't about playing "End Game". Like PD, we will probably cap in the game level teens [or lower]. No Epic Elites or any of that.

    I've looked at threads by vets [mainly PD because it's most relevant], and looked at gear and weapons at the brokers; and quests in the teens with a possible 80 ML {level 16x5} worth of weapons and gear is not too much, considering that alot of stuff that will be lower than ML 10 will have negligible impact for a character.

    Eliminating chests and End rewards just seems so wrong. I know that the adventure is the journey and all that, but even a character in PnP went out adventuring to find loot. Chest and End Rewards are a staple of D&D. It's the carrot on the end of the stick. Plus consider this - only one item in the chest is magic. The chances of it being something that
    a) you like
    b) you need
    c) you can use

    is small. A lot of times we just sell off chest pulls because they don't fall into those catagories. I've sold off lots of stuff I considered "junk".

    With gear restriction dependent on a limitation value, a player must decide what to equip from his store of gear and weapons. Decisions, decisions. It adds interest to the game. It keeps a character fresh. If you play with the same old chainmail, sword and shield week after week, month after month - things get a little stale. This also keeps the character from being UBER MEISTER.

    I realize that all this makes for an - involved - lol - not so simple - "ruleset", but alot of it is stuff we all share the same opinion about. It will all "fall into place" once some of the particulars are hammered out.

  16. #416
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    A thought occurred to me and I wondered if anyone has more information.

    Difficulty level - the problem - normal mobs are too easy, elite traps are too deadly. Even hard mobs are a bit squishy,

    Has anyone tried running a quest 1 level higher than the characters but on hard? Or 2 levels higher on normal?

    We always did "at level" and whatever difficulty, or if things got too tough we went a level lower on elite. Did anyone try the reverse?

    Level up, but on hard (not elite not normal).

    So 4-6 L5 characters would attempt a L6 quest on hard.

    It came to me due to our iconics group last week. We are all L15 and did a L16 quest on normal. It was too easy so we did the next one on hard. It took us longer to kill the mobs but was do-able. Now combine that with a minimal-magic group and perhaps the challenge would be about right? Tough mobs, tough traps. Not impossible, but challenging.

  17. #417
    Community Member DrowsworD's Avatar
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    I'm going to jump in to this. It is apparent that several of you have given this much more thought than I have - having never played DDO this way. There is a lot of options and ideas on how set the parameters we will play under.

    Character Generation: The current DDo style char gen is okay, maybe allows more of a "buffed up" character but they are supposed to be something more than the "common man, elf, dwarf". Even when I ran DnD we used a 4d6 toss out the lowest and put them where you want generation (we played ADnD 2nd ed - 1980's). Testing 3d6 using the DDO roll command gave me several 10's, 8's and and a 13. Not exactly "go out and slay monsters" stats.

    Magic Items: I agree that DDO is a Monty Haul campaign but the quests are designed that you need that stuff to survive. At least I think unless you play very slow and very smart which is not necessarily the average MMO-player.

    I like a progressive increase in the amount a magic a character can use; call it experience with magical items due to exposure or anything else you need to justify it. How we decide what is kept from chests and end rewards is up for debate. The end reward we KNOW will be a magic item and you can chose the one that suits you. Many times I end up selling the end rewards since they are different but not necessarily better than what I have. Occasionally that one item will pop that I can use and is better.

    Chests rewards are usually vendor trash, gems, potions, etc. except for boss chests. Here, if an item pops that someone else needs/wants we should share, but you have to get rid of your similar item (get a better sword, drop existing one to ground).

    Healing: Medicinal potions (healing, cure disease, poison, etc) found in quests can be used, and kept from quest to quest. Others are only usable in quest where they are found and will be destroyed when you leave.

    Shrines: No res shrines. I am flexible on healing shrines as it reflects being able to rest and regain magic/hit points, etc in PnP. I would limit the usage in some way - once per quest maybe. Too bad there aren't random encounters when you are resting or "You cannot rest here. Enemies are near" messages in game.

    Since this is an experiment, building on what was learned from THAC0 and Storm trials, I believe we can make changes to various rules as we move up in levels if we find things are too easy/hard. I understand wanting a rule set and sticking to it, but as things change in unforeseen ways - since we have no experience in higher levels - we need to be flexible. Let's set some rules for starting levels and revisit them as we progress.

    Storage: One thing I saw recently on the THAC0 thread was a discussion of storage; quivers, arrows, packs, bags, etc. Part of this talked about encumbrance and setting a limit - more than DDO does - and possibly setting a limit on the number of packs you can use. My characters are always carrying too much, if they were real they wouldn't be able to stand up much less fight. Limiting carrying capacity also limits what "Extra" magic can be carried that is not being worn.

  18. #418
    2015 DDO Players Council Hazelnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Has anyone tried running a quest 1 level higher than the characters but on hard? Or 2 levels higher on normal?
    I did this by accident at level 2 or 3 (I forgot what the levels are). I ran one of the Marketplace quests solo on normal. It was quite a challenge. I used up every last healing potion I had (I didn't buy any beforehand, it was just what I had on-hand). Only after I finished did I check and realize the quest was 1 or 2 levels above my character.

    Even before joining the THAC0 group, my play style has always been slow and sneaky. Check everything. Try and draw the baddies out of clusters and take them out one-at-a-time.
    Zyinniah Hazelnut and Curissa Hazelnut on most servers.

  19. #419
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    Nice brainstorming guys.
    These are just some views.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DrowsworD View Post
    I'm going to jump in to this. It is apparent that several of you have given this much more thought than I have - having never played DDO this way. There is a lot of options and ideas on how set the parameters we will play under.

    Character Generation: The current DDo style char gen is okay, maybe allows more of a "buffed up" character but they are supposed to be something more than the "common man, elf, dwarf". Even when I ran DnD we used a 4d6 toss out the lowest and put them where you want generation (we played ADnD 2nd ed - 1980's). Testing 3d6 using the DDO roll command gave me several 10's, 8's and and a 13. Not exactly "go out and slay monsters" stats.
    DDO Character Creation already has a bell curve installed. Using our linear dice roll system, you can "randomize" the stats and get a somewhat "4d6drop lowest" result.
    Typical Stats include (1) opportunity (70%) at getting 17+, then the remaining stats would contain 10 thru 14's. (Average, depending on starting build points)
    Grabbing a d10 right now and rolling I get 16, 15, 10, 14, 10 and 12, using a 32 pt build. (Prior to Racial Adjustments)

    Quote Originally Posted by DrowsworD
    Magic Items: I agree that DDO is a Monty Haul campaign but the quests are designed that you need that stuff to survive. At least I think unless you play very slow and very smart which is not necessarily the average MMO-player.

    I like a progressive increase in the amount a magic a character can use; call it experience with magical items due to exposure or anything else you need to justify it. How we decide what is kept from chests and end rewards is up for debate. The end reward we KNOW will be a magic item and you can chose the one that suits you. Many times I end up selling the end rewards since they are different but not necessarily better than what I have. Occasionally that one item will pop that I can use and is better.
    This is what THAC0 uses, and the chance of finding Treasure increases with level.
    If you make the roll for each chest, you open and retain anything found. Theoretically you might (over your career) gain nothing or everything.
    Luck is a an important part of the game. IMO
    Level 1-5.....10%
    Level 6-10....~15%
    Level 11-15...~28%
    Level 16-19...~40%
    Level 20........50%


    Quote Originally Posted by DrowsworD
    Chests rewards are usually vendor trash, gems, potions, etc. except for boss chests. Here, if an item pops that someone else needs/wants we should share, but you have to get rid of your similar item (get a better sword, drop existing one to ground).

    Healing: Medicinal potions (healing, cure disease, poison, etc) found in quests can be used, and kept from quest to quest. Others are only usable in quest where they are found and will be destroyed when you leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrowsworD
    Shrines: No res shrines. I am flexible on healing shrines as it reflects being able to rest and regain magic/hit points, etc in PnP. I would limit the usage in some way - once per quest maybe. Too bad there aren't random encounters when you are resting or "You cannot rest here. Enemies are near" messages in game.

    Since this is an experiment, building on what was learned from THAC0 and Storm trials, I believe we can make changes to various rules as we move up in levels if we find things are too easy/hard. I understand wanting a rule set and sticking to it, but as things change in unforeseen ways - since we have no experience in higher levels - we need to be flexible. Let's set some rules for starting levels and revisit them as we progress.

    Storage: One thing I saw recently on the THAC0 thread was a discussion of storage; quivers, arrows, packs, bags, etc. Part of this talked about encumbrance and setting a limit - more than DDO does - and possibly setting a limit on the number of packs you can use. My characters are always carrying too much, if they were real they wouldn't be able to stand up much less fight. Limiting carrying capacity also limits what "Extra" magic can be carried that is not being worn.
    Interesting points. Looking forward to seeing the result.

  20. #420
    2015 DDO Players Council Hazelnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrowsworD View Post
    ...
    Character Generation: The current DDo style char gen is okay, maybe allows more of a "buffed up" character but they are supposed to be something more than the "common man, elf, dwarf". Even when I ran DnD we used a 4d6 toss out the lowest and put them where you want generation (we played ADnD 2nd ed - 1980's). Testing 3d6 using the DDO roll command gave me several 10's, 8's and and a 13. Not exactly "go out and slay monsters" stats.

    Magic Items: I agree that DDO is a Monty Haul campaign but the quests are designed that you need that stuff to survive. At least I think unless you play very slow and very smart which is not necessarily the average MMO-player.

    I like a progressive increase in the amount a magic a character can use; call it experience with magical items due to exposure or anything else you need to justify it. How we decide what is kept from chests and end rewards is up for debate. The end reward we KNOW will be a magic item and you can chose the one that suits you. Many times I end up selling the end rewards since they are different but not necessarily better than what I have. Occasionally that one item will pop that I can use and is better.

    ...

    Healing: Medicinal potions (healing, cure disease, poison, etc) found in quests can be used, and kept from quest to quest. Others are only usable in quest where they are found and will be destroyed when you leave.

    ...

    Storage: One thing I saw recently on the THAC0 thread was a discussion of storage; quivers, arrows, packs, bags, etc. Part of this talked about encumbrance and setting a limit - more than DDO does - and possibly setting a limit on the number of packs you can use. My characters are always carrying too much, if they were real they wouldn't be able to stand up much less fight. Limiting carrying capacity also limits what "Extra" magic can be carried that is not being worn.
    I have no clue how it works, but the THAC0 "dice rolling" generates a 32 point build. So it ends up being pretty "adventurer" quality, just not optimal.

    My view of the limit on magic items is that in general magic items are "not healthy" and you have to build up a tolerance to them as the excuse for why a level 1 character can't use the higher level stuff.

    I don't like the idea of not being allowed to keep the potions you find in-quest. I understand what you are saying but I think it might be better to have a limit along the lines of "can't carry more than 5 (or 100 different types of potions". Along the lines of potion belts.

    As to equipment. Most of what I carry into a cave would fit in a single backpack tab. Possibly with the exception of potions. I don't buy them, just use the ones I collect, but I have about 10 or 15 to choose from after a while.
    Zyinniah Hazelnut and Curissa Hazelnut on most servers.

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