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  1. #301
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHeros View Post
    Level 6 with the +5 hood, +1 spot enhancement, +2 Skill Boost, and Narc can't spot or search for traps in elite Tangleroot end quests. I'll check and edit in actual values but I think I'm at 19. A stat boost (+1) and a hero click(+2) probably (hopefully) would have made the difference. After dying twice in traps, (also got killed by rock elementals) had the xp to level. So got 1 more rank and spot/search enhancement instead of the hoped for Sneak Attack Training. And since +7 gear is min level 7, I' won't be able to afford it.

    Solutions; concentrate on search only and rely on memory. Kind of metagaming and I don't know where all the traps are. Use either me or Vinnie as a trap detector; it would kill me(as it has) or waste healing. Free bonus for trap gear would violate the spirit of Storm. A ranger could concentrate on spot but we don't have one. (The original Narcene was a ranger and that had been the plan) The combat feels right at this level, tough fights we can both win or loose depending on luck and skill. Cove spyglass?
    Well the last three Tangleroot quests are level 6, 7, and 7. We did them on elite, and you were L6. So of course withut the top gear (and maybe even with top gear) we aren't going to find/disable traps. You are correct though, the COMBAT feels about right. Challenging but not impossible. If we use tactics and caution, we can win. If we get over confident, we can lose.

    We need to come up with a way to give us a CHANCE to spot/disable without making it a SURE thing. Is that even possible? Is the spot a static number? I know disable is a d20 roll. Likewise, I think now that we are doing L6+ quests, fortification is going to be an issue. Jedial is using 5 of his ML magic allowance for a moderate fort belt. That is 28% of his 18 allowed points. Before equipping the belt, Jed was dying once per quest in the boss (or orange named) fight when he would be criticaly hit. Same thing seems to be happening with the halflings now. You go from 90-100% health to zero in 1-2 hits.

    Ideas:
    Making spot/search/disable items count as HALF their ML for classes who have these as primary skills.
    Access to and use of owl/fox potions.
    Fortification items count as half the ML.
    Raise the ML allowed from x2.5 to 3.
    Keep on as we have been and suck it up.

    My preference would be either all or nothing - go with x3 or just suck it up. I was shocked at how long the "rule" post got. I want to keep it as simple as possible, easy for everyone to understand and abide by.

  2. #302
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Default By the way...

    I feel for you. I would not have fun playing a rogue that was little more than a lightly armored fighter with less health. If you are going to be a rogue it should be for more than just sneak attack, right?

    You know, I am almost thinking we should not have rolled our stats. In DDO the gear and monty haul is what we all tried to get away from. I think rolling stats may also be a stumbling block for others to join.

    Is it time to rethink and redesign our framework based on our experiences? Thoughts? I'm not trying to turn our group into the standard hack and slash your way through with uber gearz group. I would like to simplify the rules and address the limitations we have found.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    We need to come up with a way to give us a CHANCE to spot/disable without making it a SURE thing. Is that even possible?
    Guys, I have some of your answers, but solutions will have to be up to you.

    Trap DC's on Elite start at 10 at 1st level and increase by 2 per level.
    Hard is 2 points lower than Elite and Normal is a wopping 4 less than Hard. (This is a change that happened somewhere in the last 4-6 months!)
    Level 6 Quests (generally) have a Trap DC of 20 at Elite.
    SOME traps at the same level vary a point or three.

    Natural progression of a Class Skill is 4 at 1st Level, then 1 per level.
    A Rogue at 6th level would have a natural skill of 9 plus whatever Feats and Enhancements he thought neccessary, but without gear, would eventually fall short at higher levels.

    Spot and Search are Static, Disable is Dice Roll.

    We discovered this just about 6-7th level, just like you are now.
    Sorry to say your decision is increase your Magic Limitation or start reducing the difficulty.
    If you insist on doing Elite, you must take more Gear.

    Repeating what I read last year from the design team...."Quests are designed to be played at Normal Difficulty...."
    Last edited by intruder1; 07-30-2013 at 04:59 PM.

  4. #304
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    It just occured to me there might be a solution.
    You NEED gear, but DDO is Monty Haul.
    Reduce the available Magic Items.
    Adopt a Dice roll to open chests and opt away from End Rewards, or a combination of both.
    This is VERY hard to do from a willpower standpoint! Ask the others.

    Rolling a 1 on a d10 (as we do) is about bare minimum. You will not gain many items.
    You have to agree on a roll that gives you enough, but not too much.
    If you decide to take end rewards, knock the chest roll down a point.

    Doing this, you abandon the ML restriction.
    You equip whatever you find.

    Good luck to you.
    Oh, btw, if you take random away (ie, Stats) you're one step closer to "Building" and the DDO "Way".
    (These are merely my oppinions and not to be regarded as critisizm)

  5. #305
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    Another solution - just eliminate the traps. Give your rogue an admin item so he *always* spots/searches/disarms them automatically. That is essentially what happened to the Wed. group. Traps became a complete non factor.

    I have to say, though, that Cogs absence has made trap finding very interesting. We can spot them, then we have to figure out how to beat them without a rogue. And given that traps on normal aren't always lethal, its become a fun element. This is actually the first time I've ever thought traps added fun to the game. But its only possible on normal, so your only solution is to eliminate them.

  6. #306
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Guys, I have some of your answers, but solutions will have to be up to you.

    Trap DC's on Elite start at 10 at 1st level and increase by 2 per level.
    Hard is 2 points lower than Elite and Normal is a wopping 4 less than Hard. (This is a change that happened somewhere in the last 4-6 months!)
    Level 6 Quests (generally) have a Trap DC of 20 at Elite.
    SOME traps at the same level vary a point or three.

    I'm not sure where you got this information, but it is not even close to what has been recorded on ddowiki, let alone what I have personally experienced as a player who has played many trapping focused characters over the last three years including PD campaigns. For example Stopping the Sahaugin, a level 1 quest, has trap DCs of 18 and 19 on elite. Kobold's New Ringleader, a level 2 quest, has trap DCs over 20 on elite. Halls of Shan-to-Kor, a level 5 quest, has some trap DCs that are in the 40s on elite.

    Within a single quest trap DCs may vary as much as 20 points (Cabal for One for example).


    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Sorry to say your decision is increase your Magic Limitation or start reducing the difficulty.
    If you insist on doing Elite, you must take more Gear.

    There are a myriad of buffs including skill boost, owl's wisdom, fox's cunning, heroism, prayer, and inspire competence that can boost a trappers skills by +6 not including individual skill enhancements. It is not that difficult for trappers (rogues, wizards, artis, rangers, etc) to be able to find and have a chance to disable most elite traps. One only needs maxed gear if one expects to 'no fail' every elite trap at level.


    Also, most, if not all, traps in DDO can be avoided or bypassed without disarming them. Many can even be used to the party's advantage as STORM did in the last part of Tangleroot. Even though our rogue was unable to disarm the boxes, we were able to navigate past nearly every trap just by watching it, timing it, and getting a little lucky.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    And given that traps on normal aren't always lethal, its become a fun element. This is actually the first time I've ever thought traps added fun to the game. But its only possible on normal, so your only solution is to eliminate them.

    Actually it is quite possible on elite as well as Storm demonstrated on Sunday when we ran Yarkuch's Last Stand, a level 9 quest on elite, with a party made up of level 6 & 7 characters. We couldn't disarm the traps, but most of us managed to bypass them to reach the end fight and some optional chests as well as use them to our advantage against the Hobgoblins.


    Traps on elite HURT and usually kill, but that's part of the thrill of playing elite. If the rogue can't find a trap box on elite, the pucker factor increases and everyone starts thinking outside the box. If a rogue can't find the trap box on normal, everyone just runs through it.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Give your rogue an admin item so he *always* spots/searches/disarms them automatically. That is essentially what happened to the Wed. group. Traps became a complete non factor.

    .
    Maybe before you make a statement like that, you should find out just what the facts were.
    Spot always has to be viable. It's the disarm that requires luck along with suffiecient skill.
    Disarming traps was never automatic. Cogs sunk so much effort into disable because he felt to fail made his character useless.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    If a rogue can't find the trap box on normal, everyone just runs through it.
    I was going to talk about both of your posts, but it really doesn't matter.
    I don't post anything without testing carefully, or I declare it is only my oppinion.
    Your playstyle is different that mine and the wiki is out of date.

  10. #310
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Actually it is quite possible on elite as well as Storm demonstrated on Sunday when we ran Yarkuch's Last Stand, a level 9 quest on elite, with a party made up of level 6 & 7 characters. We couldn't disarm the traps, but most of us managed to bypass them to reach the end fight and some optional chests as well as use them to our advantage against the Hobgoblins.
    True, BUT, we (as players) knew the traps were there. In quests I am not as familiar with (say quests like the Carnival chain, Necro, Delera, and anything over L11) my knowledge is spotty at best. The likelihood of doing what we did in Tangleroot is less likely. I've run Tangleroot with at least 20 characters in the past year.

    There's got to be a middle ground. I don't think anyone enjoys playing a rogue spec'ed for trapping that can't find and disable at least a couple traps per quest. Might as well put your skill points elsewhere and spend AP on combat oriented enhancements.

  11. #311
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Magiker, I see your point and appreciate the input. I would like to think there is a middle ground though.

    Intruder, the ML system may not be the best, but I think it's maybe a slight improvement over the potential system. Personally, I don't want to do the rolling for chests and ignoring end rewards. Not sure just what will work. I'm not even sure what we are doing ISN'T working, because as far as combat goes we seem to be in that sweet spot right now. It's traps on elite and (forgot to mention) overcoming some forms of DR. Narcene was doing zero damage to the elementals the other night. I didn't check the combat log, so not sure how much damage I was doing either.

    We'll work it out. Keep the ideas coming, it's appreciated.

  12. #312
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Maybe before you make a statement like that, you should find out just what the facts were.
    Spot always has to be viable.
    Spot was not firing, Searching where we KNEW there were traps was not working. We never got a control box to appear so never had opportunity to attempt disable.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Maybe before you make a statement like that, you should find out just what the facts were.
    Spot always has to be viable. It's the disarm that requires luck along with suffiecient skill.
    Disarming traps was never automatic. Cogs sunk so much effort into disable because he felt to fail made his character useless.
    I'm not sure what point you're making, because you sound like you're criticizing but then you agree. Its a fact that the Wednesday group never suffered from a single trap once we went to normal difficulty with a rogue along. And it does get automatic even for disarm (on normal), barring a roll of "1". (and even then, the box blowup damage is hardly critical on normal).

    Anyway, its become apparent that a careful party with a good spot score doesn't need a dedicated trapper on normal difficulty. Which is a good thing, because running a trap spec rogue isn't the most fun thing in the world (as compared to, say, an assassin rogue build).

    P.S. I am well aware of my facts.

  14. #314
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    P.S. I am well aware of my facts.
    I took it as he meant the facts regarding STORM's issues. So I clarified about spot/search.

    Also, I noticed on my alts on Ghallanda, that only my toons with rogue splashes ever spot any traps after about L10-11. Not even my L13 Ranger/L2 Fighter with max spot, max spot item, and Wild Instincs running can spot traps that my L11 Ranger/L2 Fighter/L2 Rogue sees.

    I need to compare their spot scores side by side though.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Magiker, I see your point and appreciate the input. I would like to think there is a middle ground though.

    Intruder, the ML system may not be the best, but I think it's maybe a slight improvement over the potential system. Personally, I don't want to do the rolling for chests and ignoring end rewards. Not sure just what will work. I'm not even sure what we are doing ISN'T working, because as far as combat goes we seem to be in that sweet spot right now. It's traps on elite and (forgot to mention) overcoming some forms of DR. Narcene was doing zero damage to the elementals the other night. I didn't check the combat log, so not sure how much damage I was doing either.

    We'll work it out. Keep the ideas coming, it's appreciated.
    If you do find that middle ground in regards to traps on elite, please let us know. IMO, Trap DC is the main culprit that dropped the Wed group to Hard, and then to Normal. Only on normal do you stand a chance against unspotted traps. DRs were indeed another issue, but my sorc got around them by moving to DPS/buffing.

    Perhaps an administrative uber-Spot only item would solve your issue? It would keep the traps in play, and not affect the combat balance you've managed to find. And nobody would have to play the boring trapper role...
    Last edited by Magiker; 07-30-2013 at 11:08 PM.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I took it as he meant the facts regarding STORM's issues. So I clarified about spot/search.

    Also, I noticed on my alts on Ghallanda, that only my toons with rogue splashes ever spot any traps after about L10-11. Not even my L13 Ranger/L2 Fighter with max spot, max spot item, and Wild Instincs running can spot traps that my L11 Ranger/L2 Fighter/L2 Rogue sees.

    I need to compare their spot scores side by side though.
    Makes sense. Its the trapfinding ability that rogues have and rangers lack, I believe.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Makes sense. Its the trapfinding ability that rogues have and rangers lack, I believe.
    I know you would like to continue using Elite and I can only relate what I have found in careful testing.

    Let me explain. I have 2 Rogues that I send on recons to determine Trap DC's.
    Their Spot Skill is spec'd to stay just below the expected DC of the Quest they are testing.
    What they carry is specific gear that increases their Spot Skill in small increments.
    These, in addition to skill boosts, allow them to spot a trap, then back off, lower their Spot Skill in minute quantities until they can no longer Spot.
    Thereby, determining the DC very closely.

    If he is at full Spot and trips a trap that he didn't Spot, he activates a boost (he has 2, one for +2 and one for +3) to see how far above the "Norm" it is.
    That's how I can determine the base DC and any variance.

    Currently their levels are 3rd and 8th.
    I am guessing as to the Trap DC's on our current group quest levels (9) because I haven't been keeping the 7th Level up to date, XP wise.
    Last edited by intruder1; 07-31-2013 at 07:55 AM.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    I was going to talk about both of your posts, but it really doesn't matter.
    I don't post anything without testing carefully, or I declare it is only my oppinion.
    Your playstyle is different that mine and the wiki is out of date.

    While I have not recorded my results for each trap box, I have disabled a lot of traps over the past four years. A LOT. Basically just about every trap in every single quest in DDO (usually on elite). I've played both undergeared first life and twinked TR trappers at every level in every quest. I've played just about every flavor of trapper you can think of: rogue mechanics, rogue assassins, artificers, arti/rogues, ranger/rogues, wiz/rogues, rogue/monks, wiz/artis, and a horribly build ranger/bard/rogue.


    I appreciate you have tested some low level quest trap DCs (which would make very valuable contributions to the wiki, or even a great stand alone thread on the forum for new players), but my personal experience does not back up some of the conclusions that have been posted in this thread. I'm not trying to rile anyone up by contradicting them, I'm really just trying to reassure our group (STORM) that I don't think we need to worry about changes to gear rules because in my experience, we should be just fine without any overhaul to our current gear rules. Unless of course Narcene decides to forgo search/disable gear for a shiny new bow.

  19. #319
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    STORM, like THAC0 in general, is an experiment. You guys are blazing the trail as to what it takes to play at Elite without the Monty Haul.
    It is going to be filled with alterations. I'm glad you guys are doing it.

    Last year I tested Trap DC's up to 6th level and at that time, they were 3 by 3.
    This means 3 points difference between levels and 3 points between Difficulties.
    (This is a BASE number. Some Quests and SOME individual traps vary.)

    As of a few months ago, Trap DC's up to 6th Level seemed to go to 2 by 4 by 2.
    2 points between levels, 4 points up to Hard, and 2 points up to Elite.

    Last night we ATTEMPTED two 9th Level Quests.
    According to the projected DC, it should have been 20.
    Our Ranger's Spot was 18 and he was picking them up.
    I will be spending time this week nailing down Trap DC's to 10th Level.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    STORM, like THAC0 in general, is an experiment. You guys are blazing the trail as to what it takes to play at Elite without the Monty Haul.
    It is going to be filled with alterations. I'm glad you guys are doing it.

    Last year I tested Trap DC's up to 6th level and at that time, they were 3 by 3.
    This means 3 points difference between levels and 3 points between Difficulties.
    (This is a BASE number. Some Quests and SOME individual traps vary.)

    As of a few months ago, Trap DC's up to 6th Level seemed to go to 2 by 4 by 2.
    2 points between levels, 4 points up to Hard, and 2 points up to Elite.

    Last night we ATTEMPTED two 9th Level Quests.
    According to the projected DC, it should have been 20.
    Our Ranger's Spot was 18 and he was picking them up.
    I will be spending time this week nailing down Trap DC's to 10th Level.

    I ran Gwylan's Stand on elite last night in my PD group and I was finding the traps with a 24 Search. Almost exactly what the wiki has listed for it. That said, parts of the wiki probably do need updating. I am still not seeing the kind of steady progression of trap DCs you seem to be tracking, probably because each pack is so different and designed with different goals in mind.

    But if you are gathering solid data on specific quests, you should definitely post a stand alone article with your results. That type of info is always valuable to the player base, especially newer players.

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