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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Which I think is aptly captured in the fascinate/enthrall/suggestion song abilities.
    1st Edition PHB, page 118. Bard, optional character IF the DM determines that it is desirable.
    As described above, stats MUST be 15, 15, 15, 15, 12 and 10.
    THIS Bard has a truck load of HP at level 1 because he retains all HP from Fighter and Thief progressions.
    ie, at least 5d10 from Fighter, plus a d6 for each Thief level reached above 5th.
    This would equate to 5d10 plus a max of 3d6.
    Then at Bard Level one (and thereafter), would add a d6 per Level.

    Experience starts at 0 when he becomes a Bard.

    Fascinate--Yes, they can do it, but it IS an Easy Button in DDO.
    I have not tried it yet, but from what I understand, it hardly fails.

    In 1st Edition, at Level 1, you have just a 15% chance to succeed, and Saving Throws are rolled to "shake it off".
    As level rises, so does the chance to succeed. 1st Edition loved to detail each and every level.
    Roughly every 3 levels, a Bard's success rate increases by 10%.
    Around 11th Level, a Bard still succeeds only 50% of the time.

    How does that compare with DDO's Fascination Success rate?
    Last edited by intruder1; 07-09-2013 at 08:29 PM.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDM View Post
    http://www.2shared.com/document/Zq_V...ition_-_C.html

    Click on the lower download button. Sorry its in pdf i can't copy and paste the relevant bit. suffice to say Bard is nothing like ddo version
    Requires a loader. Can't do that.

  3. #263
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    Default Bards

    HISTORY, AND CURRENT FORM OF THE BARD
    1st Edition to Edition 3.5 (basis for DDO)

    Bards in First Edition AD&D were a special class unavailable for character creation, but optional at the DM's discression. A character could become a bard only after meeting specific and difficult requirements, achieving levels in multiple character classes, becoming a bard only later. The process of becoming a bard in the First Edition was very similar to what would later be standardized in D&D......

    The bard, as part of the "rogue" group, became one of the standard character classes available in the second edition.

    According to the second edition Player's Handbook, the bard class is a more generalized character than the more precise historical term...

    In Second Edition AD&D, bards were of the rogue group, which meant that a character could not multiclass between the bard and thief classes. They also became a more integral part of the game, being moved from an appendix in the back of the Players Handbook to the normal listing of classes. This iteration of the bard class was based on the version that appeared in the Dragon magazine article "Singing a new tune: A Different Bard, Not Quite So Hard" (issue #56).

    The 2nd edition bard was explicitly a jack-of-all-trade class, with a limited selection of thief skills (pick pockets, detect noise, climb walls, and read languages) a limited wizard spell progression, access to proficiency in any weapon, and some special bardic music abilities and bardic lore. Beginning at 2nd level, a bard began to gain spells as if a wizard, and like wizards, they had to keep a spellbook and could not cast spells while in armor. They could learn any spell they had access to (as a mage would).

    In Third Edition Dungeons and Dragons, the bard class continued its change from a druidic loremaster in first edition into a jack-of-all-trades........

    Bardic magic also changed once again. Now, like the sorcerer, the bard casts arcane magic but without a need for spellbooks or preparing specific spells; unlike Second Edition AD&D, bards are now limited to a list of specific bardic spells. Unlike wizards and other arcane spellcasters, they can cast a small number of healing spells like Cure Light Wounds (a relic of the druidic origins of the class).

    And finally.........

    In 2003, the Revised "3.5" edition of Dungeons and Dragons (Read DDO) was released, including several minor but significant changes to the Bard class. Bards gained increased access to skills and the ability to cast bard spells while in light armor. The bard is the only Core class able to freely cast arcane spells in armor, as well as the only Core class with Speak Language as a class skill........

    Perhaps more significantly, one of the bard's trademark abilities—that of bardic music—was both strengthened and tied more closely to the bard class. In the previous 3.0 edition, the bardic music abilities available to a character depended only on the amount of Perform skill that character possessed, not advancement in the bard class. These abilities largely did not improve, once acquired, and no new abilities became available at high levels; only the number of daily uses of the music increased with bard class level. In the 3.5 version, not only was the availability of bardic music abilities tied to bard class level as well as Perform skill, but also most of these abilities now significantly improved in potency with progression in the bard class. New high-level bardic music effects were introduced as well as progressive improvements of existing ones.

  4. #264
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    How does that compare with DDO's Fascination Success rate?
    At lower levels, it rarely fails, although you do have to pike while playing or you end up getting hit several times due to the long "casting time" of the music.

    I don't have experience with higher level bards.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    At lower levels, it rarely fails, although you do have to pike while playing or you end up getting hit several times due to the long "casting time" of the music.

    I don't have experience with higher level bards.
    The fact that it rarely fails is my main problem with it (and everything else that "rarely fails")
    I see that it can fail if interupted, but I just feel it's too strong an ability, that's all.

    I also hate "one shot kills", "never fail Disable"....you get the point.
    Dice rolls are the heart of D&D. (IMO)
    Is that hard core? <grin>

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    The fact that it rarely fails is my main problem with it (and everything else that "rarely fails")
    I see that it can fail if interupted, but I just feel it's too strong an ability, that's all.
    Saving Throw: Will negates, DC = Perform skill + 1d20.
    Does not affect undead or constructs.
    Song takes about 5 seconds to play (cast).
    Fascinate is considered a mind-affecting ability, thus mindless enemies or those immune to mind effecting abilities are immune, like vermin (scorpion and spider). Orange, Red and purple named enemies are also immune.
    Damaging the enemy breaks the enchantment as well.

    All-in-all a very nice CC for your standard mobs that are vulnerable to mind-affecting abilities. Useless against a good subset of enemies including the more powerful orange/red/purple named ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    I also hate "one shot kills", "never fail Disable"....you get the point.
    Dice rolls are the heart of D&D. (IMO)
    Is that hard core? <grin>
    To me, dice rolls were both the structure and randomness of the game. The "module" or "dungeon", along with the DM and his/her ability to referee and provide an entertaining and exciting immersion into the game world were the heart. Otherwise you might as well play backgammon or blackjack.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    . Otherwise you might as well play backgammon or blackjack.
    Well said!
    Hopefully it won't come to that.

    The fact that Fascinate mostly just affects Lower Level WANDERING MONSTERS () , I will give Manatarms some "Perform" and try it out.

  8. #268
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Well said!
    Hopefully it won't come to that.

    The fact that Fascinate mostly just affects Lower Level WANDERING MONSTERS () , I will give Manatarms some "Perform" and try it out.
    If you limit the perform skill (like no magic enhancements, only skill points) then the DC of 1d20+perform skill modifier won't be nearly as effective. This would more closely simulate the 1st ed rules. If at level 5 you had a CHA of 14 (+2) and 7 level ups in perform (say 3 at L1 and 1 per level after) your DC would be 1d20+9, or 10-29. If you assume an average roll of 10ish, the DC is 19 at L5. That's tough for an average mob to resist, less so for say a cleric or shamen that may have a will based bonus to saves. It will probably work between 85-95% of the time at normal level 5 quests. However, without using rest shrines it's one of those "use it when you need it most" weapons, not something to spam every fight.

    Higher level mobs and hard/elite difficulties will reduce it's effectiveness further w/o using magic items to enhance the perform skill.

    You could even limit it to 1 skill point per level, or every other level, if you find it makes things too easy for your play style.
    Last edited by Fedora1; 07-10-2013 at 07:45 AM.

  9. #269
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    In addition to Fedoras above suggestion, the other limiting factor for Bardic music is there is a certain number of times it can be used between Rests, like Turn Undead. Although taking Virtuoso will allow you to regenerate those like a Paladin does Smite Evil.

  10. #270
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Dice rolls are the heart of D&D. (IMO)

    Monsters get a saving throw vs fascinate just like they do against any other spell effect. Actually it is not uncommon Cadrod's songs are resisted by enemies and he's been interrupted more than once while trying to play a song. With our restrictions to gear and stats it is hardly a no fail ability.


    It's not nearly the easy button you seem to think it is.

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    Although taking Virtuoso will allow you to regenerate those like a Paladin does Smite Evil.

    Not until level 12 and then only once every five minutes.

    Currently Cadrod has 11 songs per quest he must split between party buffs and CC. Usually the lion's share goes to party buffs or individual buffs to boost the rogue skills for navigating traps.

  12. #272
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Does not affect undead or constructs.

    Cad will have access to Music of the Makers and Music of the Dead which will allow him to affect both.

  13. #273
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Default Come Out and Slay

    This quest is difficult without shrines. It is even more difficult without a cleric. Percy was a no-show last night, and Vinnie the Greaser had problems with his mic and so was a silent partner with the occasional text in party chat.

    We had two lingering quest chains to complete, with Shan-to-Kor being the other one. As Percy was missing, we decided to finish the shorter one to complete the Sharn series (on elite). Breaking a house rule, we ended up running this 3 times before succssfully completing it. The first two times we experienced total party wipes at the end fight in the alley with Mad Hand Mulvaney watching. On the first try, our bard was last man standing, and tried valiantly to kill the last 7-8 mobs on his own with charm person, until he ran out of mana and had to go hand-to-hand. The second try it was Vinnie as the last halfling standing who went out in a blaze of glory after going through what seemed to be a quiver of arrows, finally jumping into the fray at close quarters.

    They say the third time is a charm, and it was true this night. Again, we made it to the end battle where we paused to take a slower approach. Vinnie tried sneaking ahead and was rewarded with a bell sounding his death, too far for Jedial to raise back up. The remaining three (Jedial, Narcene, and Cadrod) started sniping bad guys one at a time from the roof tops with slow but steady success. then we heard another *ding* and Narcene's ghost joined Vinnie's ghost in the alley. Fortunately Narcene was close enough to get back in range of Jedial's Undying Call and after a moderate time spent hidden and recovering our strength, we proceded onward to victory.

    It was fortunate we completed the quest on the third run, by now it was quitting time. It may not have been the most productive night of questing, but the epic close-calls at the end battle were dramatic and fun.

  14. #274
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    On the first try, our bard was last man standing, and tried valiantly to kill the last 7-8 mobs on his own with charm person, until he ran out of mana and had to go hand-to-hand.

    Technically I think we should have been awarded a completion on the first try since Cadrod was able to charm the arcanus into killing all the remaining guards, but Madhand Mulvaney refused to acknowledge completion until the arcanus was dead also. After the charm wore off, Cadrod tried a song to fascinate the arcanus and get a few free swings on him, but the arcanus shrugged it off and melted Cad's face with acid blasts instead.


    So much for the alleged 'easy buttons' of bard song.

  15. #275
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    So much for the alleged 'easy buttons' of bard song.
    Go easy on intruder.

    He is being a very careful and cautious DM. I think a P&P campaign under his care would be incredible.

    I understand his philosophy. It's easier to "not allow" something in the first place than it is to take it away later.

    Anyhow, our Sunday nights, though not always successful or productive, have been quite fun nonetheless. I want to say "thanks" to you and the others for the good times thus far (and intruder for inspiring me to join in the fun).

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    So much for the alleged 'easy buttons' of bard song.
    ;(

  17. #277
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    Default Percy Insurance

    Storm rules being what they are concerning shrines, wands, pots, and scrolls, there really is no way for Cadrod to keep the group healed reliably in anything but the shortest quests. So I rolled up a L7 cleric to have a back up waiting on the bench in case Percy is not able to attend a session.


    Hopefully Percy can make it tomorrow, but if he can't, now we won't be limited in our choice of quests.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    ;(
    Last edited by Postumus; 07-21-2013 at 01:00 AM.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    (video)
    Priceless!!

  20. #280
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Tonight we began Halls of Shan-to-Kor on elite but ultimately ran it on hard when Narcene was unable to find the first trap boxes. We discussed how the opponents weren't particularly challenging on hard, but the traps in that particular quest really do require very good gear or very good stats and enhancements and mediocre gear.


    Our group rules make this very difficult to achieve. I think heroism and an intelligence item would have tipped the scales in our favor (my PD arti got them at level 5 with just the Korthos set, but he had more magic items overall), but I also think that the Shan-to-Kor traps have some of the toughest DCs for the low level quests so I'm confident that this won't be too much of a concern going forward.


    I really don't mind dropping to hard for certain quests if we feel undermanned or undergeared (like we did for Irestone also), but since we are used to the increased challenge of elite opponents, running quests on hard almost feels too easy. It definitely isn't the same sense of accomplishment, but it is still fun nonetheless.


    Unfortunately Percy wasn't able to make it again (or Vinnie), but I thought we fared well with a trio of Narcene (rogue), Jedial (paladin), and Mansoor (cleric). And once Mansoor gets a bow or some kind of ranged weapon he'll able to do more than just stand there and block while arrows whiz back and forth over his head.

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