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  1. #141
    Community Member LeadHeros's Avatar
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    Default Not in the least...

    It will be interesting because you can't see, they hit hard, and there's a lot of them. I tried to solo this on my sorc and ran out of time. Gaaaahh, Thaco has turned me into a kreepi-kraulli.
    No Char left behind; original join date, Oct 2010

  2. #142
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHeros View Post
    It will be interesting because you can't see, they hit hard, and there's a lot of them. I tried to solo this on my sorc and ran out of time. Gaaaahh, Thaco has turned me into a kreepi-kraulli.
    One tactic that I found worked okay was to stay just in the entrance of the big room and destroy as many big crates as possible from a distance. That way once you clear the mobs close by and the ones shooting at you from above you don't take damage while chopping at the crates. Then you move left or right from the entrance just enough to target more big crates, also drawing in a few more ground stationed mobs, but not all at once. As long as you have enough firepower to take out the big crates without taking too long, this tactic saves you from a lot of damage.

  3. #143
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    Hmmm...using "pre-knowledge" tactics for a quest you haven't run yet is a no-no...
    And its kinda a spoiler too for some people.

  4. #144
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Hmmm...using "pre-knowledge" tactics for a quest you haven't run yet is a no-no...
    And its kinda a spoiler too for some people.
    Also skipping portions of quests (like not investigating side passages and secret doors) because "We don't need to go there to finish the quest" would be a no-no, but it conflicts with a rule made that you don't do "optionals" or areas not directly related to a quest. How does one know you don't need to check behind that secret door as part of the quest? Pre-knowledge. lol

  5. #145
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Hmmm...using "pre-knowledge" tactics for a quest you haven't run yet is a no-no...
    And its kinda a spoiler too for some people.
    Two words: "Bardic knowledge."

    We bards do more than just stand around looking fabulous.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Also skipping portions of quests (like not investigating side passages and secret doors) because "We don't need to go there to finish the quest" would be a no-no, but it conflicts with a rule made that you don't do "optionals" or areas not directly related to a quest. How does one know you don't need to check behind that secret door as part of the quest? Pre-knowledge. lol
    Not really. If its clearly not the main path, we usually don't proceed with it as a primary goal. Sometimes we come back to it if we feel we're strong enough and the main mission is complete.

  7. #147
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Not really. If its clearly not the main path, we usually don't proceed with it as a primary goal. Sometimes we come back to it if we feel we're strong enough and the main mission is complete.
    I can think of a lot of quests that are not linear. So without the "pre knowlwdge" you would not know that you don't need to investigate a side passage. By the way, how does one know it's a "side" passage" ? Do all quests go south-to-north or left-to-right? Would you want to risk back-tracking to pull a lever that might be behind that secret door by passing it since it does not "appear" to be in the main path? Pre-knowledge works both ways. You would only skip something if you "knew" it was not needed to complete the quest.

  8. #148
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Not really. If its clearly not the main path, we usually don't proceed with it as a primary goal. Sometimes we come back to it if we feel we're strong enough and the main mission is complete.
    I can think of a lot of quests that are not linear. So without the "pre knowledge" you would not know that you don't need to investigate a side passage. By the way, how does one know it's a "side" passage" ? Do all quests go south-to-north or left-to-right? Would you want to risk back-tracking to pull a lever that might be behind that secret door by passing it since it does not "appear" to be in the main path? Pre-knowledge works both ways. You would only skip something if you "knew" it was not needed to complete the quest.

    I know for a fact that when I do a quest for the first time (not using the wiki) I explore EVERYTHING just in case. My highest level character is 15, so there is a lot I have not done yet. I can speak from current experience - if you don't know, you check everything. You only skip stuff if you have pre-knowledge it is fluff.

  9. #149
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Sorry about the double post with the add. I HATE the new forums. Tried to edit but couldn't. :/

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I can think of a lot of quests that are not linear. So without the "pre knowledge" you would not know that you don't need to investigate a side passage. By the way, how does one know it's a "side" passage" ? Do all quests go south-to-north or left-to-right? Would you want to risk back-tracking to pull a lever that might be behind that secret door by passing it since it does not "appear" to be in the main path? Pre-knowledge works both ways. You would only skip something if you "knew" it was not needed to complete the quest.

    I know for a fact that when I do a quest for the first time (not using the wiki) I explore EVERYTHING just in case. My highest level character is 15, so there is a lot I have not done yet. I can speak from current experience - if you don't know, you check everything. You only skip stuff if you have pre-knowledge it is fluff.
    The graphics often make the choice easy, and if not then you just pick a path. Exploring everything before moving forward is a great way to waste resources. Turbine throws lots of things into the dungeon to do just that, and without rest shrines its important to stick to the mission at hand.

  11. #151
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    The graphics often make the choice easy, and if not then you just pick a path. Exploring everything before moving forward is a great way to waste resources. Turbine throws lots of things into the dungeon to do just that, and without rest shrines its important to stick to the mission at hand.
    We do not seem to have any difficulties completing both optionals and quest objectives so far.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    We do not seem to have any difficulties completing both optionals and quest objectives so far.
    What does that tell you? If you're running dungeons on elite and completing every optional, and you aren't encountering any difficulties, then are you really playing a THAC0 playstyle?

    I suggest that you unoptimize your builds and restrict magic a bit more.


    EDIT: scratch my comments above, and see the other thread.
    Last edited by Magiker; 05-18-2013 at 09:57 AM.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    [I]What does that tell you? If you're running dungeons on elite and completing every optional, and you aren't encountering any difficulties, then are you really playing a THAC0 playstyle?

    It tells me that the Korthos and harbor quests are very easy on elite for anyone who has much experience playing DDO.


    While these low level quests may still be challenging for you, it isn't because of your play style, gear, or your build. Ability and experience in DDO are far more valuable than gear until one reaches the highest levels of DDO. Three or four experienced players can, and do, trivialize most content on elite until the highest levels regardless of gear or build. This is exactly why players seek additional challenges like playing in PD or Gimp guilds (or THACO).


    For example: my last perma-death group skipped Korthos entirely and started in the harbor without any starter gear whatsoever. Four level one characters starting with nary a magic item between them (no hams, no 'heal kits' with CLW pots, no 'admin' items) completed all the 2nd level quests on elite (so the quests were three levels higher than the characters) and we had fewer deaths (I think one) than Storm had in Korthos.



    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I suggest that you unoptimize your builds and restrict magic a bit more.

    Tell you what, you go play with Mortal Voyage (or any PD group really) for a month and when you can get a character up above 10th level with THEIR rule set, then I'll consider your suggestion.


    The THACO low magic and no shrine rules are hardly the most restrictive rule sets out there. Some guilds choose to adopt to challenge themselves, they just don't post in the forums much. You can continue to attribute Storm's (or any player's) ability to complete the easiest quests in this game on gear or our 'optimal builds' (since when is a dragon marked bard with 16 charisma and 12 Con considered optimal btw?) for whatever reason, but it really doesn't have anything to do with that.


    I like the group of players currently in Storm, so I can adapt to whatever rule set we want to use as long as everyone is having fun... which is the entire point, no?
    Last edited by Postumus; 05-18-2013 at 12:22 PM.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    It tells me that the Korthos and harbor quests are very easy on elite for anyone who has much experience playing DDO.


    While these low level quests may still be challenging for you, it isn't because of your play style, gear, or your build. Ability and experience in DDO are far more valuable than gear until one reaches the highest levels of DDO. Three or four experienced players can, and do, trivialize most content on elite until the highest levels regardless of gear or build. This is exactly why players seek additional challenges like playing in PD or Gimp guilds (or THACO).


    For example: my last perma-death group skipped Korthos entirely and started in the harbor without any starter gear whatsoever. Four level one characters starting with nary a magic item between them (no hams, no 'heal kits' with CLW pots, no 'admin' items) completed all the 2nd level quests on elite (so the quests were three levels higher than the characters) and we had fewer deaths (I think one) than Storm had in Korthos.






    Tell you what, you go play with Mortal Voyage (or any PD group really) for a month and when you can get a character up above 10th level with THEIR rule set, then I'll consider your suggestion.


    The THACO low magic and no shrine rules are hardly the most restrictive rule sets out there. Some guilds choose to adopt to challenge themselves, they just don't post in the forums much. You can continue to attribute Storm's (or any player's) ability to complete the easiest quests in this game on gear or our 'optimal builds' (since when is a dragon marked bard with 16 charisma and 12 Con considered optimal btw?) for whatever reason, but it really doesn't have anything to do with that.


    I like the group of players currently in Storm, so I can adapt to whatever rule set we want to use as long as everyone is having fun... which is the entire point, no?
    Did you not understand my comment to disregard and look at the other thread???

  15. #155
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I suggest that you unoptimize your builds and restrict magic a bit more.[/I]
    Since when is ROLLING stats an optimized build?

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Since when is ROLLING stats an optimized build?
    Did you not understand my comment to disregard and look at the other thread???

  17. #157
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Did you not understand my comment to disregard and look at the other thread???
    I understood, but you left the original comment out there so I replied. If you wanted us to disregard then you could have removed it at the same time you said to check the other thread, correct?

  18. #158
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Did you not understand my comment to disregard and look at the other thread???
    The one about OT (Original THACO) ranged focus vs Storm melee focus? Yeah I saw that and I disagree with that conclusion as well. Nothing about your builds requires OT to be a ranged focused group, you choose to play that way and it works for you.


    If Storm had the exact same builds as THACO I don't think things would be any different in these quests. If anything we might melee even more thanks to the better crowd control a sorc and wiz would provide.


    But that just proves my point: experience almost always trumps build or gear. If OT started over at level 1 with the same builds I have no doubt you would complete the Korthos and harbor quests in half the time (or less) with far fewer deaths than you did the first time whether you focused on ranged or melee or whatever.

  19. #159
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Since when is ROLLING stats an optimized build?

    Maybe he just means pure class vs multi? Otherwise I'm not aware of any 'optimized' builds in our group.

  20. #160
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    Default This will be in both threads...

    I'm curious. This question is as much for idle readers as well as those playing in THACO and STORM. Given a choice between these two methods of death penalty which would you choose?

    1) Pema-death. Your character dies. You re-roll another character. Different STATs, class(es), skills, etc.
    In a static group this would also mean starting a character as close to the group's level as possible [1,4,7]. Most PD rules have you pass on 1 item you had as heirloom.

    Pros
    This would mean, theoretically, that you would be keenly interested in playing safe and keeping your character alive. It would impart a sense of challenge and excitement for a character getting whomped on.
    Definitely serves the purpose of a death penalty.

    Cons
    It means the player has to either play below the level of his mates, or solo to keep up within or near level parity. The character also must start out with a gear/item detriment (depending on the loaner rules).

    There are of course, more pros and cons, but these are the main two that I think affect players the most.

    2) Chimera-death. Your character dies. You now have to select another Class when you next level up. Your choice. If you die again before leveling, the choice is limited to a random roll. 1d8 for Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, Paladin, Sorcerer. If you die a third time - re-roll. You stay on the new class until you die again. Then - same as before. When you have three classes - deaths bounce from one class to the next.

    Pros
    You get to keep your original character, so you don't lose XP level parity with your mates. If you are someone who hates multi-classing, it will serve to keep you playing careful. Definitely serves the purpose of a death penalty. If you like multi-classing the random element will serve to make you play careful just as much as a pure player. Depending on your viewpoint, multi-classing also makes for a more versatile character at the expense of power, so in effect makes the game more challenging as time goes on. YMMV.

    Cons
    It can make for some truly gimped characters. Also many people do not like, at all, multi-classing. Plus there is the re-roll factor, making it much like PD - only more delayed. Last resort sort of thing.

    This is not put out there as a solution, per se, to THACO or STORM's death penalty questions. This is my own curiosity about how other players feel about alternatives to the DDO playstyle.

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