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  1. #1
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    Default Wail of Banshee - more data, repeatable test cases

    Home Sweet Sewer seems to be an optimal test case for anyone, player or Turbine employee, who wants to try and duplicate what players reporting issues are experiencing. It has exactly six (6) mobs, in a relatively small contained area. The mobs are not "dancers" like kobolds - they wont jump in and out of close range. They swarm and stay as close to you as possible. There are ample spaces that are flat, and there are boxes/steps available for testing whether different height/z levels are affecting the outcome.


    Test scenario 1: remove all guard items; don't aura. run in and gather the six dogs around you on a flat floor space (easy to find, e.g. on the west corridor). Stand still. Wail.

    Expected outcome: 3 ticks where we see two of the dogs either (1) die, or (2) save and enervate/drain; we expect to see zero spell penetration failures.

    Actual outcome: about 2 out of 10 tries, I saw all six dogs die. On every other attempt there were at least 1 or 2 dogs left alive; however in only one or two cases were they level drained. I think I saw a blue hexagon once in all tests; what I did not see were the expected enervation/drain indicators that should have occurred *every time* the dogs saved (which I assume, could only happen on a roll on 20 and should have been very rare anyway).


    Test scenario 2: remove all guard items; don't aura. run in and gather the six dogs around you while standing on the top steps of one of the "holes" in the corridor walls. The idea it to elevate your character above the dogs. Stand still. Wail.

    Expected outcome: 3 ticks where we see two of the dogs either (1) die, or (2) save and enervate/drain; we expect to see zero spell penetration failures.

    Actual outcome: pretty much the same results as scenario 1. Frequently leaving one or two dogs alive, almost always with no observable indication that they had saved or that the drain-on-save effect had occurred.


    Test scenario 3: remove all guard items; don't aura. run in and gather the six dogs around you but run back and forth on flat floor space in a corridor. Turn around, run back to the dogs, then wail on the run. The idea is to duplicate your (presumably) usual behavior in active combat which is movement and jumping over/around mobs.

    Expected outcome: 3 ticks where we see two of the dogs either (1) die, or (2) save and enervate/drain; we expect to see zero spell penetration failures.

    Actual outcome: This time, never saw all six dogs die. Saw a couple drain indicators, no blue hexagons, and generally left either 3 or 4 dogs alive, but sometimes 2 or 5. Now I was careful to stay in the usual range even while moving and jumping - certainly it's easy to stay in almost touch range of at least 2-3 of the dogs but keep moving.


    Conclusion: I realize these tests aren't perfect but they're about as good as anything players can do. Wail is still not working like pre U17. Negative correlation to different relative z levels. Positive correlation to movement while the spell effect is ticking. Positive for save indications not appearing consistently and drain-on-save not applying consistently. Speculating that maybe the random mob picker is sometimes assigning the same mob twice - so that when it dies, it's checked a second time anyway resulting in apparently less mobs being affected?

    If anyone else would like to run into Home Sweet Sewer and give it a shot, please post results here.

  2. #2
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    Very nice testing, and it seems like a good environment/quest to test in. +1

    I think I'll take my cleric in there this afternoon and test implosion.

    Nice work.

    ...J
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  3. #3
    Community Member Mercureal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamnJD View Post
    I think I'll take my cleric in there this afternoon and test implosion.

    Nice work.

    ...J
    I'm thinking the same thing, and to test Consume on my Shadowdancer. The bugs seem very similar for each of them and i wouldn't be suprised if there is some coding shared between them.
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  4. #4
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    I don't even play my Arcanes so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I wanted to say well done for taking the time and putting in the effort to try to explain this issue to Turbine. Hope it gets fixed for you guys soon.

    Oh and +1 naturally OP.

  5. #5
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    I've got a free slot, I'll swap for Wail and see what there is to be seen from it.

    Right-o, made several runs. Gather all 6 dogs, stood in an open area, wailed.

    Reliably killed 5/6 of the dogs. The 6th dog was unaffected.
    Last edited by Bzzzt; 03-19-2013 at 12:24 PM.
    Nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feather_of_Sun View Post
    It was causing server-crippling lag due to an issue with how much kobolds hate boxes.

  6. #6
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    The dogs appear to be level 3 so they should be killed by wail 50% of the time even on a save.

    Korthos mobs on casual are level 1 so should be dying 100% of the time if you test there regardless of their save.

    You can test their level easily with symbol of death as it is a 1 level drain each time you run them through it.

  7. #7
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercureal View Post
    I'm thinking the same thing, and to test Consume on my Shadowdancer. The bugs seem very similar for each of them and i wouldn't be suprised if there is some coding shared between them.
    Consume's DC is currently bugged, at least the last time I tried it (pre u17). I reliably assassinated mobs 32x in a row with a DC 53. Those same mobs, on average only 1 or 2 mobs were killed with a DC of 52. The effect visually procced 6 times though.

    As for the OP, here are my results.

    Flat terrain, standing still (dead____neg)
    5 0
    4 0
    5 1
    4 1
    5 0
    5 0
    6 0
    4 0
    5 0
    4 0
    4 0
    4 0
    5 1
    5 0
    5 0
    5 0

    17 test total. 2-2-1 was the general trend though sometimes it was 1-2-2. The one 6 0 I got I started the wail a little before the dogs all got to me but I was not able to repeat its success (wail targeting same mob more than once, unable to reproduce). I started noticing the one dog left standing at the end of the wail was on a grate on the ground so I did a few tests where they were all on the grate but the results were no different (different textures blocking wail, negative). I noticed a few times the dog left standing was on top of a dead dog but subsequent tests showed that wasn't always the case (dead mob puppets blocking wail, negative).


    Moving, flat terrain
    4 0
    6 0
    4 0
    5 0

    Another 6 0. It is possible that wail is targeting the same mob more than once. The only times I've been able to kill all the dogs is when they weren't all in the wail at the same time. Will have to test this further. Unsure of how I can do that reliably though...
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  8. #8
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    From my testing when the bugs first started, the problem seemed related to the mob's target box. What I mean is that your test, while being a good thing, should be tested further with more type of targets. Small/Medium/Large box while moving and standing. I also noted that you would end up with more kills (most of the time) when you would be moving as some also seem to have experienced.

    That's why my conclusion is it isn't in the spell itself (you can clearly see it's effect on the buff bar + animation) but more likely the mobs that are bugged in some ways. I could be wrong though since I don't have any experience with scripts/codes. Would be nice if they could fix it soon really, people being pushed off the class they like isn't so much fun.

  9. #9
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    Takes a guy with a name like the OP to post a thread about killing the dogs in Home Sweet Sewer!

    Nice job...+1 (though, hopefully they are already testing with similar scenarios)
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhgiant View Post
    Consume's DC is currently bugged, at least the last time I tried it (pre u17). I reliably assassinated mobs 32x in a row with a DC 53. Those same mobs, on average only 1 or 2 mobs were killed with a DC of 52. The effect visually procced 6 times though.
    I'm starting to think so too, I tried it out in EH madstone and on top of the fact that it wasn't going off as much as it should, I was getting quite a few saves with damage numbers despite the fact that the DC should have been about 5 higher than my FoD which was almost never saved against.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhgiant View Post
    As for the OP, here are my results.
    Thanks for this - similar results although your movement test seemed more effective - were you only moving, or also jumping? I tended to herd the mobs, then wail on the move and then jumping or circling from one side of the herd to the other which roughly approximates how I was playing before U17. But always staying close to the pack.

    Like me, you saw far fewer drains than we should expect - because any mob that saved and isn't dead should have been drained, right? Did you see any/many blue hexagon save indicators pop up?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    From my testing when the bugs first started, the problem seemed related to the mob's target box. What I mean is that your test, while being a good thing, should be tested further with more type of targets. Small/Medium/Large box while moving and standing.
    Good point, I should also try again later in some places with fewer mobs swarmed, because come to think of it one of the places I noticed the defect the most was when wailing a pack of just 2-3 mobs where pre U17 it was quite reliable that they'd all die, and post U17 sometimes it would only kill one out of the three!

  13. #13
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Good testing effort OP!

    +1 when I can.

    Can you please take note of ANY breakables in the area of Wail?

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    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Nickademus42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    *snip*
    Very nice testing procedure. Well thought out and well communicated. Not perfect, but far better than excepted from a player.

    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    The dogs appear to be level 3 so they should be killed by wail 50% of the time even on a save.

    Korthos mobs on casual are level 1 so should be dying 100% of the time if you test there regardless of their save.

    You can test their level easily with symbol of death as it is a 1 level drain each time you run them through it.
    The Storehouse's Secret strikes me as a good spot to test. A lot of breakables, different elevations, a ring of open ground in the first room, even a room full of non-breakable targetable objects in the puzzle room.
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  15. #15
    Community Member bhgiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Thanks for this - similar results although your movement test seemed more effective - were you only moving, or also jumping? I tended to herd the mobs, then wail on the move and then jumping or circling from one side of the herd to the other which roughly approximates how I was playing before U17. But always staying close to the pack.

    Like me, you saw far fewer drains than we should expect - because any mob that saved and isn't dead should have been drained, right? Did you see any/many blue hexagon save indicators pop up?
    For the movement test, I gathered the dogs and then slowly moved backwards at about 1/2 speed (I play with a gamepad) making sure that the dogs were still in range.

    For saves, I saw no blue hexagons at all, ever.
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  16. #16
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    New test case.

    Black Loch, epic elite - there is always one mob on "patrol" in the opening hallway that can be pulled, stunned/danced, and then wailed. The quest giver is right next to the quest so it's very easy to quickly test this multiple times. I assume the mob's saves are quite high.

    Repeatable scenario: walk in, wait briefly to see the skirmisher mob, pull, and incapacitate with pws or dance. Move directly in front, facing the mob, and actually touching (that is to say, move forward until you bump the mob). Wail.

    Expected outcome: 3 ticks where we see either (1) skirmisher dies, or (2) skirmisher saves and enervates/drains; we expect to see zero spell penetration failures.

    Actual outcome: Over the course of several tests we observe that the single mob in wail range is not being chosen for effects on each tick. The following from the combat log illustrates this nicely:

    (Combat): You are affected by your wail of the banshee
    (Combat): Nearby foes will spontaneously die
    (Combat): you hit Blood Tide Skirmisher with Enervation
    (Combat): Your wail of the banshee effect has been removed from you

    In other words - one mob, three ticks, but only one time was this mob actually affected by wail. In ten tries, I had four (4) casts hit all three times, five (5) casts hit only once, and one (1) cast hit twice. Again, this is with an immobile mob (ahem) and at bump range, casting while stationary and remaining stationary until the wail ends. There was no observable pattern to whether the first, second or third ticks were omitted. Also, and this is unlike the previous test on low level harbor dogs, I never saw a single blue hexagon save indicator, whether the enervate effect occurred or not.

    This can't possibly be working as intended. Power word kill eliminates the mob every single time, so I don't see how there's some special death ward on this mob that prevents wail from functioning properly.

    I realize epic mobs did and/or still do regain drained levels faster but there's nothing I've read that indicates they have a special chance to avoid a drain entirely. The mob has no spell resistance. To rule this possibility out I also tried dancing the mob, and then alternating casts of energy drain and necrotic ray. About 6-7 casts of each with refreshed dances in between yielded expected results: an observable enervation effect on every single cast.

    Community: repeats of this test case are most welcome to rule out user error on my behalf.

    Turbine/Eladrin: please update us on this issue; do you need more data, more bug reports, or something else in order for this to be acknowledged and fixed?

  17. #17
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Nice work, OP.

    You may want to repost that data (if you haven't) over in the thread Eladrin is reading.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...27#post4938127

    Also if you can include /loc spots in the quest for him, I know he'd love that also.

  18. #18
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    Has anyone heard any new Dev comments on this subject?

    I recently hit level 18 on my TR whizzard and Wail is basically useless!
    Jump into the middle of a pile of bad guys, Wail.... Nothing! Quickly taget one bad guy, hit Circle of death and pile of bad guys die!

    Yup, Wail still FUBAR.

    yuda
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoopid_cowboy View Post
    Has anyone heard any new Dev comments on this subject?
    Thanks for the bump but there have been no further Turbine input beyond "can't reproduce" that I am aware of. I'd suggest submitting bug reports in hopes that there are enough quantity logged that it lifts this issue into some priority pool that actually gets it assigned to someone for followup and resolution. Feel free to copy/paste my test cases or reference the two threads, this one and the other one where a Turbine rep posted at least once and may or may not still be listening.

  20. #20
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    Ya shame on turbine for this one. One of the best spslls in wizards arsenal complety useless and turbine has given any indication they are gonna fix it. Havent played my pm in almost 3 months now and sucks cuz i miss playing him.

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