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  1. #21
    Community Member die's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perceval View Post
    Two Words... Perma Death.... ok so its 1 1/2 words....

    You want DnD feel, play perma death. The second you hit the raise button, you stopped playing dnd.
    Really? as far back as I can remember DnD has always had raisedead
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  2. #22
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    I suppose the d20 system worked when level cap was 10.

  3. #23

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    Are you suggesting that physical paper and ink have some metaphysical quality that cannot be reproduced using computers?
    Physical paper and ink can easily be reproduced by using computers.

    The grey matter between your ears cannot. That's where D&D is really played, and computers are at minimum 7-10 generations (for reference sake, from the inception of computers in the 1950s to today, we're in about generation 4) from being able to even approximate us.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by elg582 View Post
    As for repeating quests, are you telling me that you only ever ran any given module once?! What madness is this?
    With the same characters? Yes. Otherwise you're doing it wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Perceval View Post
    The second you hit the raise button, you stopped playing dnd.
    What a profound lack of knowledge about Dungeons & Dragons. You know, the game where on countless forums you have people asking "How can I keep x character dead?"
    Quote Originally Posted by exvanguard View Post
    Pump the AC to raise your survivability but there should never be a point at which the mobs can't hit you. Diminishing returns (IMO) made the game better - mid values are more beneficial helping the "average" player and higher values still have purpose.
    I still game all the time too, and it sounds like you have **** DMs. Diminishing returns made things worse, and you're never un-hittable. It's called a natural 20.

    Jeez, if you people are going to talk about it being like D&D, maybe you should learn about D&D, the actual rules, not whatever bogus house rules you're used to.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by elg582 View Post
    Just throwing this out there, because the new combat "system" that came out with MotU has killed my gaming experience. I took 6 months off to see if it got better, but it didn't.

    I don't have any motivation to get better gear; why should I? I can spend a week farming the absolute latest gear.... which will make ~1% difference in my character's usefulness.

    I can start a new character, but I'll be back in the same boat in a week or two.

    I can start on a new server, but that only delays things until I sell one or two nice pieces of loot, then I can twink myself out so that 2 weeks later, I'm in the same situation. Also, I am running out of servers to start anew on.

    So, assuming that Turbine is so proud of this pile of feces they call an expansion that they will not revert it, is there a possibility of getting a separate server that uses the Dungeons & Dragons system again?

    Honestly, the only reason I played this game for so long is that it was D&D; it is no longer D&D, but a WoW clone with multiclassing, and if I wanted to play WoW, I would never have left to play D&D.

    I want D&D back!

    Well then, there is always the new Baldurs Gate!
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  6. #26
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elg582 View Post
    Since they ditched D20 and went with this abortion of a cobmbat system.




    But those affected everything; what's the point in a high AC build now? What's the point in maxing your to-hit? Everything is set up for diminishing returns, and by end game, a complete upgrade of your equipment yields almost no improvement at all.
    The d20 system will always fall apart at higher lvls they did the best they could and the new combat system at least gives ac some use.

    I have played dnd since the mid 70's and this is the closest I have ever seen for myself electroncily and I count NWN as second I didnt enjoy it as much myself and this game is the most fun I have had in a MMO since they broke SWG with the CU and then killed it with NGE.

    You can't expect a MMO to truly fall pnp rules but at least they follow the spirit the best they can. Unlike CO which threw the pnp book in the furnace.

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  7. #27
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    Love the idea. Do not see it as being feasible. To put it simply you would have to have dedicated GM's to handle all of the outlandish things players can come up with.

    Friendly fire would have to be implemented (at least in my world). How many of us have had the mage toss a fireball into a broom closet because he just learned the spell and wanted to see what it did. Or the fighter trying to swing a 2-handed weapon in a hallway that is only 3 feet wide by 8 feet tall.

    Also what do you do with the rogue that runs into every room throwing flour around to see if anything is invisible or not. Or wants to try and set traps every 15 feet behind the party in case something is following.

    How about the halfling or gnome that wants to try a climb up the back of the giant so that they can get a shot at hitting the thing in the head. Or they try and talk the fighter into throwing them up on the dragons back so the don't get stepped on during the fight.

    Not to mention trying to find safe places to rest during a dungeon. You have to consider that real D&D does not have the bad guys conveniently put shrines in their dungeons so that you can regain power.

    This does not even address the fact that the mobs act a lot smarter in PnP. They tend to use the same if not better tactics than the players. This is simply a fact that they are not scripted and actually have a living/thinking(in some cases) being controlling them.

    As far as I am concerned DDO has come the closest to D&D of any MMO right now. Maybe in the future with improved technology things could be different. Sad to say I probably won't be around to see it happen.
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  8. #28
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    Perma-Death is not the only attempt at playing Classic D&D.
    If you can voluntarily follow some limits, you can have a good time.
    The "Static Group" category has our thread in it. Not Perma-Death.
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  9. #29
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    Yeah, it was more DnDish before the changes, but we have to deal with the changes and accept that we now have to go with unnecessary mapping calculations every time we attack. Not to mention the now useless bonuses like the halflings' +1 size AC and even the dwarves' +4 dodge AC against giants. Oh, and that dexterity is now pretty much a dump status in most builds (no TWF, not ranged) if they can afford to spend a feat to grab insightful reflexes.

    The worst thing is, devs pretty much diagnosed the problem correctly but decided to fix it by the wrong means. If the matter was to make AC useful, I guess it would be for the best to make the monsters roll multiple attacks for every strike with decreasing hit bonuses like in PnP, maybe lowering their damage per strike a bit. This could assure you that, even if your AC was bad enough for them to hit you 95% of the time with their full base attack bonus, they could still miss you on their 3rd or 4th attack, making it so players wouldn't completely dump AC to prevent getting obliterated in a single swing.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    Yeah, it was more DnDish before the changes,...
    No, it wasn't. MotU actually brought a lot of D&D back into DDO - which it had lost, completely. D&D has had different rules with each edition - there is nothing wrong with rule changes (the rulebooks themselves say you can revise them), and DDO's combat system today is much more akin to D&D than it was pre-MotU.

    The OP has no interest in D&D. He simply wants to make high-AC builds that are completely impervious to damage, which would have been laughable in D&D. D&D was all about the vulnerability of individuals and the power of the group. It was also mostly about roleplaying, taking a particular character type from fantasy fiction, making it your own, and then playing it out in a game of literary collaboration.

    DDO is NOT D&D, but it has nothing to do with the OP's criticism or requests. And for anyone that thinks that a TRUE D&D MMO is impossible given it needs to be computerized (no, it doesn't, that's the entire point of a massively MULTIPLAYER system), I would suggest studying MMO history a bit. Such an enterprise would be HIGHLY successful, and far, far more successful than this lame duck of a combat game.
    Last edited by Raithe; 03-19-2013 at 08:44 AM.

  11. #31
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The number one balancing factor in PnP is the DM. Since you dont have a live DM in an MMO, any absolute system can and will be exploited to make the most invulnerable toon possible. Once the d20 system begins to go outside 20 units on either side it falls apart as a method of chance.

    I like the parabolic system because you can approach invulnerability without actually arriving there. It works well in layers rather than having one absolute stat determine vulnerability of the toon to specific attacks.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The number one balancing factor in PnP is the DM. Since you dont have a live DM in an MMO, any absolute system can and will be exploited to make the most invulnerable toon possible. Once the d20 system begins to go outside 20 units on either side it falls apart as a method of chance.

    I like the parabolic system because you can approach invulnerability without actually arriving there. It works well in layers rather than having one absolute stat determine vulnerability of the toon to specific attacks.
    You never had what you're describing because of grazing hits. You were never invulnerable getting grazed on a 13.

    What do we get now leveling up melee? You spend half the quest chugging CSW pots. it's completely sucked the fun out of it.

    The new combat system sucks, it has no business being in a game with the name "Dungeons and Dragons" in the title.
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  13. #33
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    The new combat system sucks, it has no business being in a game with the name "Dungeons and Dragons" in the title.
    Many people said the same thing of 3.x.
    Many people said the same thing of 4.0.
    Go figure. *shrugs* The more things stay the same I guess.

  14. #34

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    Well then, there is always the new Baldurs Gate!
    I play the original trilogy from Candlekeep to the Throne at least once a year.

    And I play that one permadeath. No save/reload cheese.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Many people said the same thing of 3.x.
    Many people said the same thing of 4.0.
    Go figure. *shrugs* The more things stay the same I guess.
    And we were right those times as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
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  16. #36
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    I am against the new combat system, too. It's not even close to d20.

    But what's even more fun, it doesn't work. I get misses on 2-5 fairly often (with proficient weapons), despite what I read about the system. But maybe I read wrong, who knows.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    No, it wasn't. MotU actually brought a lot of D&D back into DDO - which it had lost, completely. D&D has had different rules with each edition - there is nothing wrong with rule changes (the rulebooks themselves say you can revise them), and DDO's combat system today is much more akin to D&D than it was pre-MotU.

    The OP has no interest in D&D. He simply wants to make high-AC builds that are completely impervious to damage, which would have been laughable in D&D. D&D was all about the vulnerability of individuals and the power of the group. It was also mostly about roleplaying, taking a particular character type from fantasy fiction, making it your own, and then playing it out in a game of literary collaboration.

    DDO is NOT D&D, but it has nothing to do with the OP's criticism or requests. And for anyone that thinks that a TRUE D&D MMO is impossible given it needs to be computerized (no, it doesn't, that's the entire point of a massively MULTIPLAYER system), I would suggest studying MMO history a bit. Such an enterprise would be HIGHLY successful, and far, far more successful than this lame duck of a combat game.
    You know, first you said it the rule change made it more DnDish... and then you contradicted yourself by saying the rules were never the same, which is somewhat correct for most things - except the attack rolls themselves, which have always been a trademark in PnP. Simply rolling a dice, adding a value (THAC0, hit modifier, whatever you decide to call it throughout the editions) and comparing to a number (AC) - how much more easy could it get?

    The linear increase made it so every point of AC would give you a 5% chance of evading a blow, and every point of hit chance increase would give you a 5% increased chance of doing so, making every single point valuable. The entire balance in the combat system was made based on this rule, which I'll not say it wasn't twisted by the devs when they were making various stacking bonuses to AC in new items every update so that people would buy the packs (profane bonus to natural armor, devs, really?). The result is that, just before the changes, the amount of defense an AC-oriented character could achieve forced the devs to increase the hit modifier of the monsters to a number so high that the other character builds could never get enough AC to leave the 5% evade zone.

    And instead of nerfing said items (and some enhancements), they simply decided to change the system. They could make other changes to try to keep the system while solving the problem, but I guess they thought we don't really care as long as there is a way for us to avoid being hit or mitigating damage. But I like to think the reason OP started the thread has less to do with being a walking fortress (because you STILL can be one) and more to make AC useful again.

    And to end this big wall of text, yes, I'm aware DDO is not DnD, and that MMOs need to be more dynamic in the way they are played. However, DDO clearly tries to mimic DnD's (3.5) system and that is (or used to be) its main selling point, which attracted people like me. So if you can objectively show to me (and to everyone who thinks alike) how this new system is in any way better than the older one (less server load maybe?), then I'll acknowledge you have a good point. Otherwise, let me assure you this kind of argument will never be accepted, it'll be always a "lol deal with it, shut up and accept" thing.

  18. #38
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    I still think DDO is the best MMO out there and the closest thing to D&D that you can get. I wish many things were different, but do understand that the developers have to please a broad range of people. I'm sorry that you are not enjoying it as much as you used to. I do think however that AD&D was about getting bigger and better loot. Some campaigns were different but most involve killing something to get to something. It was also about getting to the highest level for most. If DDO never expands and everyone wins, then what happens?
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  19. #39
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    You know, first you said it the rule change made it more DnDish... and then you contradicted yourself by saying the rules were never the same, which is somewhat correct for most things
    Ya, its not rocket science. The rules don't define whether it's D&Dish or not, but can definitely get in the WAY of it being D&D-ish. D&D definitely was about melee combat, and pre-MotU you were a complete fool to think that you were doing anything important at all standing next to a mob swinging a weapon. Stuns, trips, saps, etc... sure. Melee combat? No, you were being a complete drain.

    MotU made melee combat situationally effective. It could have done a bit more, but in all truth I think melee combat is about right (except for some haywire destiny abilities) currently. It's the out-of-control ranged and caster situations that have turned the game into a total bore with certain groups. They need nerfed, it's the proper way to balance at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    The linear increase made it so every point of AC would give you a 5% chance of evading a blow,
    Sure, if you kept your range of possible ACs for a given level within 20 points. DDO did not, which is how it failed. My sorc had about 28 AC normally. There were AC builds with over a 100 AC pre-MotU. You simply can't balance for both. At the time, it was balanced so my 55 AC fighter and ranger were getting hit 95% of the time in suitable content. That is no longer the case, and that is an improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    The result is that, just before the changes, the amount of defense an AC-oriented character could achieve forced the devs to increase the hit modifier of the monsters to a number so high that the other character builds could never get enough AC to leave the 5% evade zone.
    Should DDO have limited itself to small stat bonuses on a carefully managed loot system? Absolutely. These developers were metagaming kids (in a candy shop) and made a million mistakes that we can all regret. Water under the bridge.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    But I like to think the reason OP started the thread has less to do with being a walking fortress (because you STILL can be one) and more to make AC useful again.
    You don't really understand the system if you think AC is useless. I notice the difference, drastically, between my cleric (who can get about 70 AC) and my sorc who has 50% concealment constantly. They both get hit about 50% of the time in the content I run, but one also has a moderate PRR and the ability to shield block when applicable.

    DDO's combat is supposed to be active. Most of your defense comes from you actions, not your stats. Get used to it.
    Last edited by Raithe; 03-19-2013 at 02:06 PM.

  20. #40
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Ya, its not rocket science. The rules don't define whether it's D&Dish or not, but can definitely get in the WAY of it being D&D-ish. D&D definitely was about melee combat, and pre-MotU you were a complete fool to think that you were doing anything important at all standing next to a mob swinging a weapon. Stuns, trips, saps, etc... sure. Melee combat? No, you were being a complete drain.

    MotU made melee combat situationally effective. It could have done a bit more, but in all truth I think melee combat is about right (except for some haywire destiny abilities) currently. It's the out-of-control ranged and caster situations that have turned the game into a total bore with certain groups. They need nerfed, it's the proper way to balance at this point.
    Melee characters being effective at high levels is *VERY* anti-D&D.

    In *EVERY* edition.

    Sure, if you kept your range of possible ACs for a given level within 20 points. DDO did not, which is how it failed.
    And keeping your AC within 20 points of your opponents' To Hit was not viable in most circumstances in D&D for 3.0 or later, either. (AD&D was obviously different in this regard.)

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