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  1. #61
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    It would take a serious rework of client code. Maybe if they did like Lam and you download a seperate client.

    Because in ddo, the following changes, I think, would have to be made to address the pnp -> mmo differences:
    Monsters: reworked completely
    How so:
    How it seems

    Code:
    They have basic stats, modified by various elements/attributes.
    These modifications are in direct response to the overpowered nature of players.
    How it could become
    Code:
    Move them back to basic stat blocks.
    Offer pen and paper progression with the abilities gained from gear and class selections/templates.
    Quests: reworked completely
    How so:
    How it seems

    Code:
    Tailored to be difficult for a variety of current powered characters.
    Rewards commensurate to the ability to repeat.
    How it could become
    Code:
    Linear difficulty scaling, based on quest difficulty selection and makeup of group.
    Rewards increased drop rate due to quest only being playable 3/4 times per life.
    Loot: reworked completely
    How so:
    How it seems

    Code:
    Massive table system to simulate randomness while giving offerings of 'decent' gear.
    How it could become
    Code:
    Smaller, more linear table where most of the 'junk' rewards are turn-in capable for named loot or crafting better gear.
    Larger chance to get special loot due to limited run cycles/life.

    Stats and player abilities: reworked completely
    How so:
    How it seems

    Code:
    SP is an unlimited source of power for casters.
    AC is useless for most builds.
    Spellpower amps the damage too greatly; Spell crits punt it over the edge.
    Stacks devestate most focused builds (abilities, enhancements, effects).
    How it could become
    Code:
    Make spells take rest/daily slots.  Limiting their use to be more in line with Pnp.
    Remove spellpower and leave feats like Pnp.  Allow effects to work as written.
    Reduce stacks; this will cut down the need for increased basics in all areas.
    Combat: reworked completely
    How so:
    How it seems

    Code:
    You don't need to see an enemy to hit it.
    Enemies react too quickly or too slowly to being hit.
    Enemies response to players is erratic.
    Combat capabilities do not instill fear or panic.
    Enemies don't need to see you to hit you.
    Stacks affect combat severly.
    How it could become
    Code:
    Draw distance of enemies based on stats would creat a way to manage initiation rolls.
    Client side AI could help mitigate lag in combat.
    Removal of stacks would smooth combat speed as well.
    Add spell like effects based on combat triggers (damage in one blow, etc).
    Overall, ddo and pnp are too divergent in direction to even bring in any semblence of alignment.

    If you wanted pnp dnd on the computer, with real time and 3d like ddo; you would lose out on enhancements, epic destinies, and most of the loot. You would potentially gain more prestiege classes, deeper epic levels, and maybe exclusive loot.

  2. #62
    The Hatchery Tiseria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunst View Post
    no worried
    neverwinter comes out soon.
    Neverwinter is pathetic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Roses are red; violets are blue.
    You grinded a tome, and I bought two!

  3. #63
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    The d20 system will always fall apart at higher lvls they did the best they could and the new combat system at least gives ac some use.

    I have played dnd since the mid 70's and this is the closest I have ever seen for myself electroncily and I count NWN as second I didnt enjoy it as much myself and this game is the most fun I have had in a MMO since they broke SWG with the CU and then killed it with NGE.

    You can't expect a MMO to truly fall pnp rules but at least they follow the spirit the best they can. Unlike CO which threw the pnp book in the furnace.
    Well the closest is still The Temple of Elemental Evil, which is turned based and even include the crafting to need gold and XP. After that probably Baldurs Gate, however both aren't an MMO and would probably never fit into one...

    I do however understand and agree to the point that with the flood of random generated items with +8 stat, double dice and what not property in combination with easy to obtain eveningstar epic items we got a massive inflation, while the overall quality of quests and story dropped down. However with all the new kids from steam you probably can make more money in the short run then with some old grumpy boys and girls missing their good old loved table top.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  4. #64
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    Well the closest is still The Temple of Elemental Evil, which is turned based and even include the crafting to need gold and XP. After that probably Baldurs Gate, however both aren't an MMO and would probably never fit into one...

    I do however understand and agree to the point that with the flood of random generated items with +8 stat, double dice and what not property in combination with easy to obtain eveningstar epic items we got a massive inflation, while the overall quality of quests and story dropped down. However with all the new kids from steam you probably can make more money in the short run then with some old grumpy boys and girls missing their good old loved table top.
    So the ability exists. Developers don't see any profit. I think that sums it up quite nicely.

    P.S. There are a few old Gold Box D&D games that were RTS so the concept isn't new.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    How it could become
    Code:
    Draw distance of enemies based on stats would creat a way to manage initiation rolls.
    Client side AI could help mitigate lag in combat.
    Removal of stacks would smooth combat speed as well.
    Add spell like effects based on combat triggers (damage in one blow, etc).
    Client side will work if the game is only one player.. Imagine sending those AI commands/calculations to all the players in the party and checking if the computations are correct over and over again. Multiply that with the number of monster in the screen

  6. #66
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vhortex View Post
    Client side will work if the game is only one player.. Imagine sending those AI commands/calculations to all the players in the party and checking if the computations are correct over and over again. Multiply that with the number of monster in the screen
    Well, if the groups of players formed a small peer to peer, where the leader handled main instruction handling for the group to keep them all on the same heartbeat/page, then per instance of players, it would be manageable.

    However, imagine what it is like currently.

  7. #67
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    I play the original trilogy from Candlekeep to the Throne at least once a year.

    And I play that one permadeath. No save/reload cheese.
    bondari reloads

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    So the ability exists. Developers don't see any profit. I think that sums it up quite nicely.

    P.S. There are a few old Gold Box D&D games that were RTS so the concept isn't new.
    Actually, no. The rule is also slightly bent on ToEE which is the closest you can get with PnP and as far as i remember, there are only about 10 level in ToEE. IMO, i think the d20 system is a kinda flawed once it get to Epic level AND abundant of powerful magical items which you can get your stat to unexpected level. like untouchable AC. In PnP, you have a DM that can offset the 'imbalance' of such system but for computer games, its simply not financially probable.

    Anyway, does TWF works with Quarterstaves as double weapon?
    Last edited by chanw4; 04-03-2013 at 12:33 AM.

  9. #69
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default First thing that would need changed....

    Throw out Spell Points (with the baby and the bath water)

    ALL spell casting classes BACK to Spells/Day JUST like PNP.

    THAT....SINGLE....CHANGE....would make DDO much much o ever so much more like the D&D of its roots.

    Kick Monty Haul in the jewels! NO player should have even a +1 sword before level 6ish.

    RAISE Minimum Levels for ALL gear on a progressive scale.

    Level 1-4 Loot +4 to Min level
    Level 5-8 Loot +6 Min Level
    9-12 +8
    etc etc.

    This would be a closer approximation to D&D implemented in an MMO.
    I am often cynical and say mean things. It's a WAI "Feature".

  10. #70
    Community Member jwdaniels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feralthyrtiaq View Post
    Throw out Spell Points (with the baby and the bath water)

    ALL spell casting classes BACK to Spells/Day JUST like PNP.

    THAT....SINGLE....CHANGE....would make DDO much much o ever so much more like the D&D of its roots.

    Kick Monty Haul in the jewels! NO player should have even a +1 sword before level 6ish.

    RAISE Minimum Levels for ALL gear on a progressive scale.

    Level 1-4 Loot +4 to Min level
    Level 5-8 Loot +6 Min Level
    9-12 +8
    etc etc.

    This would be a closer approximation to D&D implemented in an MMO.
    Is that spells per day as in one single game day, or a 24 hour real life period? I think the first would just lead to people sitting around for however long a day is in game to recharge their spells (and really bog down game play) and the second would completely neuter spell casters to the point of unplayability. Spells per day isn't really a mechanic that works in an MMO, which is why they use the spell point system. Variations on the spell point system have appeared for all editions of the D&D game in somewhat official supplements, so this isn't a huge departure from that either.

    Second, you do realize that the minimum level for those items is already based on the power level of the item in question, right? If you don't, then perhaps you should look into the crafting system a little bit. Understanding how prefixes, suffixes and plusses work together to generate an item's minimum level might help you to understand how they're generated in the first place. As far as your comment that no player should see a +1 item before sixth level, you seem to be stuck in a very first edition mindset rather than a 3.0/3.5 mindset that DDO was initially based on. 3.0/3.5 assumes the party will have magic enhancements that escalate fairly quickly, the ability to raise the dead at 9th level (if not before), and very potent magic. The game sort of assumed that everyone would have magic weapons and items appropriate to their class - it was also assumed that you could just walk into a town and buy them if you needed them.

    I get that you seem to favor a low magic, more "realistic" tabletop approach to gaming, but that just doesn't translate well into an MMO and it's not really indicative of the 3.0/3.5 system either.


    Proud officer of Crate and Barrel Smashing, LLC

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    Well, if the groups of players formed a small peer to peer, where the leader handled main instruction handling for the group to keep them all on the same heartbeat/page, then per instance of players, it would be manageable.

    However, imagine what it is like currently.
    That arises a new issue, what if the leader is lagging? How will the server calculate other things? Just let everything freeze? It may sound easy but it is not that simple. This thing will work better in LAN play but not on online environment. And just LAN base games, when the leader lags, the whole game freezes or lag terribly while motions are being calculated by each client independently.

  12. #72
    Community Member gerardIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elg582 View Post
    Are you suggesting that physical paper and ink have some metaphysical quality that cannot be reproduced using computers?
    You can use the Fly spell almost anywhere you want in PnP.

    You can setup a fight between a group of heroes and a demonic dracolich boss in the Abyss. In PnP it will take 5 mins from the moment you have the idea to the moment you start playing. In DDO it will take months to implement and you'll have to pay an extra $20 for it and there will be bugs.

  13. #73
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    I like those threads. It reveals how far from the original dnd some people feel.

    Since MotU, I throw my dices away DnD is a marketing wall for now, none of the U14 system mechanics are making this game a DnD thing.

    My wiz, second life, hits 95% of the time on epics (H) xD, no to hit gear on him oups.
    PRR, Dodge, .... lol : programmer idea to extend the 1-20 dice range which doesn't mean anything actually, except for saves (even for skills, the range has become too high to mean something on a d20 dice).

    It is for me a certitude that i am not playing dnd online game but a game that uses its own rules in some dnd worlds.
    Most of current feats mechanics are out of 3.5 edition spirit.

    I am really waiting for a dnd game, none around rdy to satisfy me atm, so i'll stay ddo....

    As a subjective and personal opinion, the game was 15/20 before MotU. It is 11/20 after. A note of my feeling
    regarding ddo, nothing else.

    I have noted that dnd and ddo have two different ways to give fun. The first one has got established rules which give common sense to dm and players who talk the same language around the table; the second one changes its rules according to its will, even destroying pillars like BA or CA because of its inaptitude to stay close to basic rules.

    I am just saying all those very friendly, nothing to say more.

    I just hope that the future expansion won't give more distance between DnD and DDO; hope is all i can do

    Have fun guys, enjoy the game.

  14. #74
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default Umm...OK

    Quote Originally Posted by jwdaniels View Post
    Is that spells per day as in one single game day, or a 24 hour real life period? I think the first would just lead to people sitting around for however long a day is in game to recharge their spells (and really bog down game play) and the second would completely neuter spell casters to the point of unplayability. Spells per day isn't really a mechanic that works in an MMO, which is why they use the spell point system. Variations on the spell point system have appeared for all editions of the D&D game in somewhat official supplements, so this isn't a huge departure from that either.

    Second, you do realize that the minimum level for those items is already based on the power level of the item in question, right? If you don't, then perhaps you should look into the crafting system a little bit. Understanding how prefixes, suffixes and plusses work together to generate an item's minimum level might help you to understand how they're generated in the first place. As far as your comment that no player should see a +1 item before sixth level, you seem to be stuck in a very first edition mindset rather than a 3.0/3.5 mindset that DDO was initially based on. 3.0/3.5 assumes the party will have magic enhancements that escalate fairly quickly, the ability to raise the dead at 9th level (if not before), and very potent magic. The game sort of assumed that everyone would have magic weapons and items appropriate to their class - it was also assumed that you could just walk into a town and buy them if you needed them.

    I get that you seem to favor a low magic, more "realistic" tabletop approach to gaming, but that just doesn't translate well into an MMO and it's not really indicative of the 3.0/3.5 system either.
    Spell per Rest Shrine = Spells per day...

    I DMd many many campaigns through college and after college with a group of Engineers I worked with. I know almost everybody says they started playing D&D in '79, '76, '73, '62 or whatever. I got the 1st Red Box Basic ed in 81, all the 1st ed AD&D books in '83 but never got a good group to game with till I got to Purdue in '89 and the 3.0 Edition came out....by the time 3.5 came out I was producing minimal techno and playing NWN in my spare time.

    DDO is GROSSLY MONTY HAUL at ALL levels when compared to ANY PNP game I have played in or designed and ran.

    YOUR pnp experience may differ as do DM styles. POWER CREEP with GEAR in DDO is an issue that affects the Devs ability to maintain balance. It's a symptom of the MMO and AI.

    Without a Live DM to balance gear and encounters we get a multitude of balance issues in DDO.

    More restrictive gearing earlier on could have prevented some power creep but not eliminated it due to the nature of D&D character builds vs AI.

    Honestly the first chest I looted in the harbor back in 09 had a +1 Acid Longsword and I thought to myself "Oh. Typical. Monty Haul."

    I'm not saying its a bad thing. I like gearing/twinking toons.


    Spell Points vs Spells/Rest was the first mistake the developers made that took DDO farther from D&D....

    The MoNtY HaUl loot extravaganza was just poor as a DM style BUT it does keep people around because they like their shinies.
    I am often cynical and say mean things. It's a WAI "Feature".

  15. #75
    Community Member Archeron's Avatar
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    Talking DDO is not dungeonns and dragons - Correct, and it never will be.

    So, assuming that Turbine is so proud of this pile of feces they call an expansion that they will not revert it, is there a possibility of getting a separate server that uses the Dungeons & Dragons system again?
    DDO uses an action based combat system, which apparently was so far ahead of its time, that others are now emulating this style. Uncertain about this, goto google and type: new mmo 2013, or mmo in development, or.. I can go on and fill pages here. The essential mechanics of this game are as they were during headstart early 2006, and we have the tweaked more balanced version in 2013. AND, this is the only game that sticks to a model that is right out of Dungeons and dragons. Your welcome to disagree with their choice of a DND version to use, but you should never compare this game to WOW. This is an entirely different beast.

    Honestly, the only reason I played this game for so long is that it was D&D; it is no longer D&D, but a WoW clone with multiclassing, and if I wanted to play WoW, I would never have left to play D&D.

    I want D&D back!
    I love DnD, but this is a live action game. Please review this one critical feature. If this becomes exactly like the Dice rolling game of fame, it will fail. Nobody has made such a game because they know it will fail. Can 100% of game developers be wrong about this or is there a good reason why DDO and others have gone/or are going to live active combat systems.

    New games no longer emulate WoW they are emulating what DDO has mastered.

    Now if Turbine gets a serious inflow of cash rich projects to reskin and add more game features features this game will be able to compete in an extremely competitive marketplace.

    The marketplace will determine if this game continues, not the special interests of a few.



    PS: DDO has one of the more generous free2play models out there. Feel free to look around and come back to this comment.

  16. #76
    Community Member Hawkston's Avatar
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    This is an interesting topic but has been derailed by discussion of the game mechanics.

    D&D was always, for me anyway, an exercise in imagination, a game of pretend. D&D was also always about storytelling, being part of an adventure story that had an unknown ending. That experience is still there if you want it but it has to go on in your head. If you're logging on to DDO with the thinking to yourself, "I'm going to run Wizking seven times on hard to level to 16, then farm some mats from House C for an hour or two before bed", then OF COURSE you are not playing D&D. You're just grinding. And we all know how the stories end - with a quest reward list.

    Once in a while I'll just roll up a new character and start new, read all the dialogue boxes, and really get into the story lines of some of the quest chains. It brings back some of the feel of D&D, but it is SO hard to resist pulling twink gear out of the shared bank and tearing through the content. Eventually I just give up, go back to a TR character, and decide, oh, he needs a +2 exceptional whatever, and spend the next couple evenings trying to get it.

    I do enjoy the game more whenever new content comes out because I'll take my time and play through the story, imagining to be whatever character I'm currently playing and I have to save the world. I despair when new uber-gear gets introduced because I know eventually I'm going to run the quest its in a dozen or more times to get it, and that makes me bored, until I finally find it. Then like with all of us it's a nice feeling to have it. For a moment or two.

    But it's not D&D.

  17. #77

  18. #78
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vhortex View Post
    That arises a new issue, what if the leader is lagging? How will the server calculate other things? Just let everything freeze? It may sound easy but it is not that simple. This thing will work better in LAN play but not on online environment. And just LAN base games, when the leader lags, the whole game freezes or lag terribly while motions are being calculated by each client independently.
    If the lead was lagging, none of the other clients would really notice disparingly different gameplay experiences. Everyone would have the same performance.

    It is essentially closed network throttling. I think they do it in some FPS games out there to make sure everyone, regardless of latency, can be sure that their shot is hitting what they see.

    I do agree changing the spell point system to a spells per day/rest system would cut the power creep down considerably, but the whole game would have to be scrubbed over because of it.

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