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  1. #1
    Community Member elg582's Avatar
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    Default Could we get a server that runs Dungeons & Dragons?

    Just throwing this out there, because the new combat "system" that came out with MotU has killed my gaming experience. I took 6 months off to see if it got better, but it didn't.

    I don't have any motivation to get better gear; why should I? I can spend a week farming the absolute latest gear.... which will make ~1% difference in my character's usefulness.

    I can start a new character, but I'll be back in the same boat in a week or two.

    I can start on a new server, but that only delays things until I sell one or two nice pieces of loot, then I can twink myself out so that 2 weeks later, I'm in the same situation. Also, I am running out of servers to start anew on.

    So, assuming that Turbine is so proud of this pile of feces they call an expansion that they will not revert it, is there a possibility of getting a separate server that uses the Dungeons & Dragons system again?

    Honestly, the only reason I played this game for so long is that it was D&D; it is no longer D&D, but a WoW clone with multiclassing, and if I wanted to play WoW, I would never have left to play D&D.

    I want D&D back!
    "You lie down with rats, and the rats run away."

  2. #2
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Since when is DDO a WoW clone?

    Not much combat system was changed by the expansion beside the AC system and spellpower.

    It's also hard to make an action mmo more like dnd because ddo can't be turn-based.

  3. #3
    Community Member elg582's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viconiax View Post
    Since when is DDO a WoW clone?
    Since they ditched D20 and went with this abortion of a cobmbat system.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viconiax View Post
    Not much combat system was changed by the expansion beside the AC system and spellpower.
    But those affected everything; what's the point in a high AC build now? What's the point in maxing your to-hit? Everything is set up for diminishing returns, and by end game, a complete upgrade of your equipment yields almost no improvement at all.
    "You lie down with rats, and the rats run away."

  4. #4
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elg582 View Post
    is there a possibility of getting a separate server that uses the Dungeons & Dragons system again?
    Nope. It was never possible in the first place. The Dungeons and Dragons system allows players to succeed or fail by the power of their ideas and imagination. All computer games are inherently limited by their programming to only allow choices that are within the possibilities that were written into the code.

    DDO has never used the Dungeons and Dragons system - the closest that it has ever come was using an approximation of the rules set as applied to an MMO's physics engine. The fact that we can run quests more than once and the fact that our success or failure in those quests and the time we take to complete (or fail) them has no impact on the world around us breaks the genre immediately. And if we could only run quests once ever, then the DDO game would never have been possible because it would have been unable to sustain a customer base.

    TL;DR version - no.

  5. #5
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Nope. It was never possible in the first place. The Dungeons and Dragons system allows players to succeed or fail by the power of their ideas and imagination. All computer games are inherently limited by their programming to only allow choices that are within the possibilities that were written into the code.

    DDO has never used the Dungeons and Dragons system - the closest that it has ever come was using an approximation of the rules set as applied to an MMO's physics engine. The fact that we can run quests more than once and the fact that our success or failure in those quests and the time we take to complete (or fail) them has no impact on the world around us breaks the genre immediately. And if we could only run quests once ever, then the DDO game would never have been possible because it would have been unable to sustain a customer base.

    TL;DR version - no.
    Exactly

  6. #6
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Wish Granted!
    However, it will be like most D&D games out there and have house rules.

    oh wait, wrong thread.

  7. #7
    Community Member elg582's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Nope. It was never possible in the first place. The Dungeons and Dragons system allows players to succeed or fail by the power of their ideas and imagination. All computer games are inherently limited by their programming to only allow choices that are within the possibilities that were written into the code.
    Are you suggesting that physical paper and ink have some metaphysical quality that cannot be reproduced using computers?


    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    DDO has never used the Dungeons and Dragons system - the closest that it has ever come was using an approximation of the rules set as applied to an MMO's physics engine. The fact that we can run quests more than once and the fact that our success or failure in those quests and the time we take to complete (or fail) them has no impact on the world around us breaks the genre immediately. And if we could only run quests once ever, then the DDO game would never have been possible because it would have been unable to sustain a customer base.
    Nonsense! D&D's rules have always been flexible, according to the situation; any alterations were necessarily balanced against the needs of the moment. This is more like a Monty Hall campaign, except that the insanely overpowered looting has gone on for so long that it no longer means anything.

    As for repeating quests, are you telling me that you only ever ran any given module once?! What madness is this?

    And what "impact" did the success or failure of a quest have in PnP? "Oh no, we were too late and the evil wizard has finished the spell that will destroy the enti- ZZZZZZZZ! AAAAHHH!
    .
    .
    .
    OK, so, what class are you going to roll up for the next campaign, or do we all want to recycle our characters from last week?"


    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    TL;DR version - no.
    TL;DR

    You didn't actually address the point.
    "You lie down with rats, and the rats run away."

  8. #8
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elg582 View Post
    Are you suggesting that physical paper and ink have some metaphysical quality that cannot be reproduced using computers?
    Yep. The fact that you can write anything on them rather than just writing what has previously been programmed.

    The game doesn't take place on your character sheet. The game takes place on the table with other living people with a living, breathing DM. You can't replace a living person with a computer (yet).

    As for repeating quests, are you telling me that you only ever ran any given module once?! What madness is this?
    I've actually only ever played a very few modules. I've been lucky enough to be in campaigns (and to run campaigns) that were created from scratch. And my players (when I was DM)/my DM (when I was a player) came up with things on the fly that were spectacularly different from what I expected.

    Nonsense! D&D's rules have always been flexible, according to the situation; any alterations were necessarily balanced against the needs of the moment. This is more like a Monty Hall campaign, except that the insanely overpowered looting has gone on for so long that it no longer means anything.
    D&D's rules have always been flexible. Computers are not as flexible. If you watch the NOVA documentary on the creation of Watson (the computer that won in Jeopardy against Ken Jennings and the other guy who won even more money than Ken Jennings), you'll get to see some of the limitations that computers still have. We can make them do some really spectacular things today, but they're still very limited.

    Maybe we can have D&D on a computer in another couple of decades. Today we can't.

    And what "impact" did the success or failure of a quest have in PnP? "Oh no, we were too late and the evil wizard has finished the spell that will destroy the enti- ZZZZZZZZ! AAAAHHH!
    .
    .
    .
    OK, so, what class are you going to roll up for the next campaign, or do we all want to recycle our characters from last week?"
    By the time your characters are 10th level or higher, they're movers and shakers in the world. If the things your characters are doing by the time they're 20th level *aren't* having a major impact on the world around them, then something is seriously wrong, IMO.

    Just think of Reaver's Fate. If you fail the raid, the Stormreaver blows up the entire continent. I've been in pugs that have failed that raid. We didn't see the server crash when that happened.

  9. #9
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elg582 View Post
    Are you suggesting that physical paper and ink have some metaphysical quality that cannot be reproduced using computers?
    Yes. That metaphysical quality is that of a GM/DM that is not bound my a set notebook script, and has complete and utter control of the "world" to do anything necessary on a whim.

    Computers are notorious about being "bound to a script" you see.

  10. #10
    Founder Perceval's Avatar
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    Two Words... Perma Death.... ok so its 1 1/2 words....

    You want DnD feel, play perma death. The second you hit the raise button, you stopped playing dnd.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phesic View Post
    I think a good term is "Nuber": A Newb who thinks he's uber.

  11. #11
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perceval View Post
    Two Words... Perma Death.... ok so its 1 1/2 words....

    You want DnD feel, play perma death. The second you hit the raise button, you stopped playing dnd.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm
    http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/s...raiseDead.html
    http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.a...d/4ll/20110510

    So.. I've not been playing DnD for all those years before DDO.

  12. #12
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    You're asking for skynet if you want a computer to be able to replace a gm, and that's what you're asking for. Say no to terminators.

  13. #13
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You're asking for skynet if you want a computer to be able to replace a gm, and that's what you're asking for. Say no to terminators.
    I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords.

  14. #14
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    ...And if we could only run quests once ever, then the DDO game would never have been possible because it would have been unable to sustain a customer base...
    And this same thing applies to the gearing out in the OP. Had the game stayed precisely where it was pre-MoTU, we had like 1 uber weapon of most types, 1 commonly-worn set of armor, 1 commonly-worn set of rings for each class, etc.

    One thing another player said on another forum I can agree with - the volume and mix of loot (including the flaws therewith) has definitely given us more options from which to choose. OP says an upgrade of loot yields a 1% improvement - another way to look at it is there's a larger volume of comparable loot (again, even if that loot comes with corrupt-a-wish caveats).

  15. #15
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    I don't see this as a bad idea, but to see it proper, it'd be best to work with some key points.

    The first, of course, is DDO isn't d20 System. It barely is a close approximation, and it's started to lose that. There's many things that are missing: move speeds, initiative rolls, charge, disarm, grapple... To claim that there should be a server that plays Dungeons & Dragons would be to create a browser-based MMO with turn-based actions, not an action MMO. I love DDO in terms of how it addresses the action MMO bit, because combat feels dynamic, rather than just point and click. The traditional MMO approach can be done, but it'll feel wrong in either case; the best example of how d20 can be translated into gaming mechanics would be Dungeons & Dragons Tactics, and it was considered a fiasco (though, I admit I have it, I like it, I've finished it twice, and I love how characters turn out to be). However, to devote a set of graphics, processor power and stuff for a turn-based MMO which doesn't require those resources and try to add action elements would be...well, interesting, but not a competitor to modern MMO games (or even classics like Everquest). You really can't point and click just like in, say, Starcraft and hope it becomes popular.

    The second thing is, DDO is a close approximation of a specific Edition. What if the interest of players is BECMI? OD&D? AD&D 1st? AD&D 2nd? D&D 3rd Edition, without upgrading at all to 3.5? D&D 4th? Heck, what if the gamers want D&D Next? Between just all four editions there's a lot of difference, and just between the first edition there's a lot of difference. Paladins are sub-classes of Fighters or Cavaliers? Can elves become Paladins or Monks, or Bards? What's gonna be the rules for strongholds? Will there be a Druid ranking to determine who's the server's Great Druid? The Grandmaster of Flowers? The Grandfather of Assassins? That's an invitation to competition that simply put no one will surpass, thus you'll end up with a lot of Fighters (...my bad, Fighting Men) and Wizards (...again, my bad; Magic Users) and Clerics (or Priests) and Thieves. Also, will it be point-buy or re-rolled? If so, count Paladins as unreachable because pulling off those stats is astonishingly bad, and keeping that Paladinhood will require implementing a Morality system ripe to be exploited. DDO approaches the situation through the lens of 3.5, but it's heavily homebrewed (the Enhancements, how Rangers get almost as many feats as Fighters in order to pigeon-hole them into archers, Bravery Bonus, etc.), so it's not really 3.5 anymore. And before going with the "how many changes you can pull off and still call it 3.5" debate, consider that the Core mechanic itself has been altered, so it's feasible to call it something other than d20 3.5 anyways.

    The third point is how much you can trace back the system and still provide people with enticing material? The game is constantly under the threat of DOOOo0OO0O0o0o0O0oOM!!! ever since the switch to F2P, but it still grows strong. However, every update requires a change on builds: first Tempest Rangers, then KotC Paladins, then Pale Master Wizards, and now Shiradi Champions. Those who reach the endgame are the most willing to invest on the game, though their biggest revenue is the people who play it casually and want an easy venue into it; thus, Turbine aims towards both. The constant state of the game is the result of Turbine attempting to cater to the end-gamers (Epic Elite, challenging raids, better end-game gear), to casuals (XP stones, Veteran status, 32-pt. buy, the Stone of Experience, pets, and other stuff) and now to Zynga casuals (Daily Dice) and EA/Blizzard-Activision prospects (the Astral Shard AH reeks of this, even though it's two steps retired from actual money: Money -> TP -> Astral Shards -> Gear, and you can get Astral Shards from alternate means). If you do a throwback, you'll address one group (those who are attracted because of the origin content) but probably ostracize the rest (hardcore gamers will probably loathe the "nerfs", casuals/Zyngers/hackenslashers will probably find the gameplay dull and "a WoW clone with D&D content"); in attempting to cater to one side of the population, you will make the rest angry and unwilling to play, and this time probably for real. I mean, notice how most of the new content is heavily focused towards FR. I prefer Eberron; in fact, I play the game because I love the fluff of Eberron, and while I'm sad that some things are missing (shifters, gnomes, kalashtar, changelings, psionics, actually playing in Khorvaire), it's not really that bad. In fact, they made very good use of the City of Stormreach supplement, one I wasn't aware it actually existed, until I stumbled upon it.

    With that said, and probably forgetting one thing or two: I find it good that they make a server that throws back things a bit as a comparison point. Changes right now are so extensive, I can't help but feel that the devs have lost some of their vision with the game, or that are tired of the old game and are attempting to do a new one. It'd be reasonable to consider that the forums are part of the blame (in essence, I'm self-incriminating, but there's a good reason for this), but the blame is much wider and harder to understand than you might think. You really can't please everyone, but you can't really attempt to please the majority and also adapt to the newer trends. The Daily Dice is a good example of this: it's just like with social games "login bonuses", and while they break suspension of disbelief, they're a reasonable marketing ploy (more people log in at least once -> get their gifts -> they probably get enticed to play the game again -> they will seek to invest on their characters once again -> ... -> Profit!!!), so they won't back off from it. The consumables shift, though? Hopefully it was revised, but perhaps there'll be a revision, because the cost/benefit ratio, from what the forums have largely agreed on, is the equivalent to armed robbery by a mob (i.e. largely unfair, and only justifiable as a money grab scheme); in this, the forums agreed on, and it's actually positive, proper feedback.

    That kind of feedback may be observed from a controlled server perspective. Strip the power-gaming elements, try going to the basics, try not to get a profit from it but introduce profit ploys slowly, and you may get people to try, probably find the proper fixes to existing bugs (and make the Known Issues list shorter, bit by bit), and probably find what the bulk of the gamers look. If it fails, then there's positive feedback as well: people like what's going on with the game, so might as well build for it.

    However, it'd be wrong to stake that there should be a "proper D&D server" unless a good section of the population looks for it. I got in because of D&D; just ask how many people got in because of D&D. Likewise, I got in because of Eberron; just ask how many people got in because of Eberron. A good portion of the people will probably answer "I got in because of D&D", but much less people will say "...and also because of Eberron"; else, you wouldn't see Lolth opening a portal between worlds. Largely the same reason why you won't see a Eberron-Greyhawk, Eberron-Dark Sun, Eberron-Ravenloft (or merely a Demiplane of Dread manifest zone), or a special Spelljammer expansion any time soon. Again: I find merit on a server that rolls back a bit from a perspective reason, and I expect people to find such reason faulty, but I find it a bit more solid than just doing it because it's not the game I like.

    Not sure about how many private servers based off DDO (homebrewed servers? ) there are, but as far as I know, there's zero servers. That's either poor promotion or VERY GOOD core service, IMO. That said, compare to how 3.5 has a continent's wealt of homebrew (just from the old 3.5 CO boards, Brilliant Gameologists/Min-Max Boards, Giant in the Playground, The Gaming Den, EN World, Paizo's Pathfinder...), and how many people try to play the game differently from its core, and you can't expect the subsidiary of a multi-million dollar corporation to actually address every single gamer, ever.

  16. #16
    Community Member exvanguard's Avatar
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    I still play PnP at least once/week and I can tell you that if any of my DM's (or myself when I am DM) ever allowed a campaign to stagnate around achievable hard caps that made a player unbeatable I would hang up my dice bag. It is the job of the DM to keep the game challenging for his players and push them to the edge. if there is no risk, then what is the point. Pump the AC to raise your survivability but there should never be a point at which the mobs can't hit you. Diminishing returns (IMO) made the game better - mid values are more beneficial helping the "average" player and higher values still have purpose.

  17. #17
    Community Member elg582's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perceval View Post
    Two Words... Perma Death.... ok so its 1 1/2 words....

    You want DnD feel, play perma death. The second you hit the raise button, you stopped playing dnd.
    I played in a perma-death guild for almost 3 years. Then it broke up.

    Since then, reincarnation has come out, and I can't stand to repeat low level quests as much as both TR'ing and perma-deathing would require.
    "You lie down with rats, and the rats run away."

  18. #18
    Community Member whereispowderedsilve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGOskar View Post
    I don't see this as a bad idea, but to see it proper, it'd be best to work with some key points.

    .......

    Pathfinder...), and how many people try to play the game differently from its core, and you can't expect the subsidiary of a multi-million dollar corporation to actually address every single gamer, ever.
    Wow awesome post bro! (Sincerely!) That is an excellent state of the game in a summary! Wow! :P! ! Good job!
    http://dillonpfaff5.wix.com/theob Sign this!!!: http://goo.gl/vS6htg

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  19. #19
    Community Member LongshotBro's Avatar
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    I see these threads pop up every now and then. Philosophically i empathize with the OP, i really do. But you've got to face facts -to it's not going to happen. Maybe within a decade...
    In the meantime, play the original Neverwinter Nights, Neverwinter Nights 2, and the associated player-created content. Or try one of those online tabletop systems. Or go to your local hobby store and see if there's any ads up for groups looking for players. Colleges often have them too. All viable choices for what you're looking for. If it's strictly PC gaming you want, Neverwinter 1 & 2 are superb.
    When you stand out in the rain, you get wet.

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  20. #20
    2015 DDO Players Council Starla70's Avatar
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    DDO started becoming a WOW clone when so many players came from there and started demanding their WOW things and changes. The system has changed from 3.0 to 3.5 and now 4.0. I have played pen and paper since 1979. There are many things I do not like. However, I have no plans to leave. I refused to buy any 3.5 books or above, I thought the new system took out imagination and was too much like a video game. It would be nice to have servers for different things like 12 to 15 year olds, Pen and paper players that are more casual then hack and slash, TR maniac's that are all about elite, elite, elite, a teaching server, for those that need the extra help to get started in all this.

    However since none of that would make much money, I don't see it happening. I for one like the idea.

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