Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456
Results 101 to 117 of 117

Thread: Is AA worth it?

  1. #101
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    At you. Not 'with you'.
    Posts
    1,694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Your DEX is a bit higher, so maybe 2-3 more to-hit.

    I Absolutely do not believe you when you say you only miss on a 1
    heh
    theres a lot more to-hit than just dex

  2. #102
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Now it is my turn to turn the tables a bit. What is your build Ape_Man? Do you have monk levels and do you have Zen Archery?
    Ranger 18/Fighter 1/Rogue 1 - Human tempest at this time but have been AA in the past.

    Even when an AA I put the bow down when MS was on timer unless it's such a target-rich environment that IPS paid off.

    I know there's some Zen archery peeps that have done some amazing stuff, but it's not my play-style.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  3. #103
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kawai View Post
    heh
    theres a lot more to-hit than just dex
    yes, and a +8 Pinion with +4 from Planar focus, GH, bard songs, 25 BAB from Tensors, +3 from Divine Favor (Pally PL Clickie) . . . my to-hit is not lacking in the slightest and I see grazes.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  4. #104
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    TARTARUS
    Posts
    1,522

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaatan View Post
    I did level this way. To be honest Im not paying much attention to what my build during leveling is, as it goes too fast to even bother in a good TR group. Yet, I dont remember it being particularly bad. I care only for how the build will look like once its capped.

    To be perfectly honest, using this set was kind of no brainer decission for me. Something that gives me a bonus to atack speed, which is permanent, stacks with everything and cant be obtained any other way than with this set (or going 20 ranger), makes it to the list of stuff I want to have without giving it much thought. :P Especially that it fits into my gear setup without sacrificing anything.
    Ah okay, that explains it. Thanks for the info. I think I'll have to do a LR myself though at cap when I do this build, simply because I Solo my way to cap, and I don't have ship buffs usually. Spells can really hurt at low level with a low reflex save. lol

    I figured as much. =/ Looks like I'll have to dish out some money and buy this pack then. I've been on the fence for a while now seeing as how the only thing I need or could want form the entire pack is this one set.. lol But if I must then I must. Is it particularly hard/tedious to grind for?
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
    Araphell - Arasin - Arathaes - Arawyn - Aravein
    Guild: Fors Fortis;Guild of Won, & VENOM @ Argo
    "And we learn, as we age; We've learned nothing! And my body still aches."

  5. #105
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    679

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    So it is important to note that the only way your numbers work is on a 36 point half-elf build with 6 or more monk levels and Zen Archery.

    This narrows the discussion significantly because I am asking about the whole range of assertions being made regarding AA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar
    What are the best choice weapons so that the comparison is best build to best build, best weapon to best weapon, best ED w twists to best ED w twists?
    I forgot that comparing best to best means, comparing 2x 28 pts builds with the worst feats selection possible lol. Anyway, the breakdown I put a couple posts above will work just as fine with a couple STR pts taken away for 32 or 28 pts builds. The absolute requirement is to be an elf or half - elf (preferably half-elf).


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Let's go back to your AA w/o 10K Stars. Does this also have Zen Archery to use WIS as the base to hit?

    We're where I started -- what are the builds, gear, destinies that we are comparing?

    Removing all potential for misunderstanding is critical in this discussion.
    You just keep proving that you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you even know how 10k Stars works ? Or, why monkchers want to have high WIS? Please do us a favor and do some research atleast about build's basic mechanics.

    Why would an archer without 10k Stars want to invest any pts in WIS at all ? Isnt it completly obivious that all pts that go in WIS on monkcher will go in DEX on non 10k Stars builds? Common sense and logic arent your best friends are they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar
    TBH, I've always thought that it only applied to melee weapons. If it also applies to bows with Zen Archery then that is important to know.
    You thought wrong.

    Seriously, do your homework before posting, pretty please. Wiki is your friend, not just forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra
    Ah okay, that explains it. Thanks for the info. I think I'll have to do a LR myself though at cap when I do this build, simply because I Solo my way to cap, and I don't have ship buffs usually. Spells can really hurt at low level with a low reflex save. lol

    I figured as much. =/ Looks like I'll have to dish out some money and buy this pack then. I've been on the fence for a while now seeing as how the only thing I need or could want form the entire pack is this one set.. lol But if I must then I must. Is it particularly hard/tedious to grind for?
    Well... noone's gonna force you to get it. If you dont feel like buying the pack for just 2 items, I dont think that lack of this set is gonna be that drastic. Its not very hard to get tho. Just have to run a couple ToDs for it. Yugo pots are pretty handy too.

  6. #106
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,316

    Default

    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 12:28 PM.

  7. #107
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    At you. Not 'with you'.
    Posts
    1,694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    ...But, if you are interested in establishing the "truth" about whether AA is as good as or better than Tempest -- and especially, keeping in context with the original post, whether AA ranger is better/worse than Tempest ranger...
    yea... no where in the OP is Tempest asked about, referred to, or advice sought for.

    as for the Tempi's themselves?
    *shrug
    ---Sadly, there's lots of reasons why many don't bother with them anymore.
    Perhaps, with the new enhancies coming, they will make them viable again.
    can only hope.

  8. #108
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,497

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    For better or for worse, others will read the thread and make assumptions. It will be too bad if those assumptions don't work out because we failed to provide essential details.
    Hi,

    This last comment interests me greatly.

    Throughout this thread, you have shown you understand very little about how archery works in the game, both in terms of playstyle and mechanics.

    Yet you have made some very strong, opinionated statements on the topic. Hopefully the lesson here is do some research and be sure of your facts before you start to pontificate.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  9. #109
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    679

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Zen Archery allows a character to use either DEX or WIS in calculating to-hit numbers and is a selectable feat for any monk with a BAB of 1 and 13 WIS. So, any character taking even 1 level of monk can qualify for Zen Archery with no need for any additional monk levels provided they meet the BAB/WIS requirement.

    What I don't know is whether this is what you envision when you discuss AA w Manyshot but not 10K Stars or if you envision something else.
    Every feat taken in a build must serve some purpose. I dont see any purpose in taking this particular feat on AA build without 10k Stars. If you do, enlighten me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I know that you assume that everyone reading will understand these things -- but, we've already seen a post in this thread by Ape_Man running 18/1/1 with no monk levels at all and who is having trouble understanding how you, Kawai, etc. are hitting when he's getting grazing shots at the best.
    I only assume that people who lecture others about builds, would know atleast the very basics of the build they are talking about. Also, I dont see any connection with Ape_Man's post here. He doesnt seem to not understand how basic archer's mechanics work. He s just saying that he sees grazing hits, which is perfectly normal with the changes to AC. There is no more guaranteed hit on roll 2. To hit also depends greatly on gear and destiny, not only stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    It isn't that I do or do not know the subject. It is that I cannot read your mind or make inferences about what you think every player ought to know. So, it is important to make those points clear.
    You certainly give a totally different impression. I cant read your mind or make inferences about what you know or you think that you know. Sadly, I also dont have enough time to explain every little detail that "most" of players do know. I highly recommend reading wiki to understand some mechanics, comparing them yourself first (hell, maybe even testing?!) and then posting on forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If we want to exchange insults we can do that. But, if you are interested in establishing the "truth" about whether AA is as good as or better than Tempest -- and especially, keeping in context with the original post, whether AA ranger is better/worse than Tempest ranger then we need to be clear on what we are discussing.
    I dont think the "truth" can be estabilished in this conversation. Or atleast without me putting way too much effort than I m able to, into explaining every little detail that a normal person would understand by reading the description (yes, I know that some descriptions cant be trusted!). For now its like talking about quantum mechanics with an elementary school kid. There is an order in which people learn about stuff. Its impossible to talk about something more complicated if you dont understand the basics. Once again, Im sorry but Im not gonna put that much effort and explain all the basics. Yet, Im sure that once you learn those basics and read my and other players' posts in this thread, you should be able to find your answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kawai View Post
    as for the Tempi's themselves?
    *shrug
    ---Sadly, there's lots of reasons why many don't bother with them anymore.
    Perhaps, with the new enhancies coming, they will make them viable again.
    can only hope.
    Tempests already had their time to shine. There were times that every proper TWF toon wanted to splash 6 ranger levels for Tempest I. Lets give AAs some spotlight now. ^^ With how the game keeps changing I bet it wont last long tho.

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Throughout this thread, you have shown you understand very little about how archery works in the game, both in terms of playstyle and mechanics.

    Yet you have made some very strong, opinionated statements on the topic. Hopefully the lesson here is do some research and be sure of your facts before you start to pontificate.

    Thanks.
    Exactly my point.
    Last edited by Shaatan; 03-18-2013 at 07:56 PM.

  10. #110
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    3,388

    Default

    Just for reference, the other night i noticed grazes on 4's in the underdark explorer area. This was with a bonus of plus 60 to hit. So if people are hitting epic elite mobs on 2's with a similar to hit i guess those underdark mobs must be tougher than i thought.

  11. #111
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The problem, IMO, with your question is that the Tempest is not going to be without spell power and the ability to self heal.

    I am curious to know how you think that an AA ranger gains more spell power than a Tempest ranger. Both have the same ability to cast spells, both have the same build choices with respect to WIS, both have the same possibility of spell boosting gear.

    If a Tempest ranger were incapable of casting cure spells or of being built with healing amp or of equipping devotion items or of finding a spot for spell/hit point regenerating items like Torc or conop -- if that were the case then such a comparison between 80% less DPS but self healing might have legitimacy.

    But, unless the comparison involves a divine class that has the AA racial PrE v Tempest ranger the question you ask has no merit.

    And, please note, this thread is not about Arcane Archers but about RANGER with the AA PrE. So, unless the build is holding onto the ranger icon it does not deserve to be in the conversation.

    Again, go back to the OP and the title of this thread -- Ranger Is AA worth it? -- and you will see that this is not a generic AA discussion.

    So, if your guy is a RANGER and he's helping out with healing instead of adding DPS to the fight my opinion is that he is of significantly LESS utility than the ranger who is doing (as has been demonstrated) nearly double (not just an 80% v 100%) the DPS.

    Sorry, but that's just how it is.
    Yeah I suppose you might have a good point. If you built a Tempest for it you could get some decent healing for sure. Doing that might hurt their con for wis though. Then there is the feat mental toughness that you have to take for AA but not tempest. Think AA gives some spell points. I took quicken and maximize as well. Not sure I could have fit those into a tempest.

  12. #112
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Not sure I could have fit those into a tempest.
    You can.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    Ape_Man does clever trolling nothing more. Don't feed him/her.

  13. #113
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,316

    Default

    Most of my replies to this thread have been deleted (by me) and replaced with the following text:

    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.


    I am presently working on a comparison of fighting styles. Due to my limitations with math it is not elegant and I must take each part sequentially.

    As a consequence, it may be some time before I get enough information to post even preliminary results.

  14. #114
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,497

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Most of my replies to this thread have been deleted (by me) and replaced with the following text:

    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.


    I am presently working on a comparison of fighting styles. Due to my limitations with math it is not elegant and I must take each part sequentially.

    As a consequence, it may be some time before I get enough information to post even preliminary results.
    Hi,

    I think rather than erasing the record of the things you said, it would have been classier to admit you were wrong and apologise.

    Each to his own, I suppose. Note to self: keep expectations low to avoid disappointment.

    Thanks.
    Astrican on Khyber

  15. #115
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Hi,

    I think rather than erasing the record of the things you said, it would have been classier to admit you were wrong and apologise.

    Each to his own, I suppose. Note to self: keep expectations low to avoid disappointment.

    Thanks.
    LOL. I'm not sure that I'm wrong.

    At the moment there is no question that ranged combat is especially valuable with the new raid. This has caused it to be the flavor of the moment. And, I also know that there is a large community of AA players who bristle at any suggestion that AA might not be a great thing.

    The preliminary information that I have put together shows that, on the surface, AA is producing more damage than Tempest. And, I had said that I would shut up if that turns out to be the case.

    My intent is to find if it really IS the case or if it just appears that way because of weapons that I've chosen to compare.

    Something else that my preliminary information shows, Manyshot + melee is more DPS than Manyshot + 10K Stars. Once more, this may be incorrect and I have to verify it.

    These things take a bit of time, especially since I have real life to contend with.

    The big caveat is that one may be best DPS in one situation and a different one may be best DPS in another situation. This is where I am at the moment in my analysis.

    I will post when I have it done. And, if I was wrong I'll be up front about it.

    People who have been on the forums long enough know that I'm not adverse to saying when I'm wrong. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again.

    But, at the moment, it will have to wait since 1) I invited all of you to show me the numbers and you did not do so and 2) I have taken it on myself to try to run the numbers and 3) my math skills are limited to a D in Calculus so I have to run things a bit linear since I cannot always figure out a nice formula to represent the process.


  16. #116
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    2,497

    Default

    Hi,

    What we are seeing, now that you have erased most of your comments, is that you are trying to present a more reasonable account of what you said.

    Example:

    "Tempest is good, AA is bad". You did say this, but then erased it.

    becomes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    And, I also know that there is a large community of AA players who bristle at any suggestion that AA might not be a great thing.
    You see the difference here, don't you?

    So you go from trashing the PRE, when it's clear you don't understand how the ranged combat style works or how to play a ranged character effectively, to pretending that it's the community which is the problem. Very slippery stuff, which does you no credit.

    Using those dps estimates to support your argument was also very silly. It rests on the assumption that dps is sole criterion of usefulness for selecting a party member, which is manifestly untrue.

    It also ignores the lower healing requirements for ranged characters, due to them not being in the melee scrum, and the ability of a good ranged player to manage how aggro is distributed in an encounter. Also the incredible usefulness of high burst damage, which can often recharge from one encounter to the next.

    The dps calculations themselves also rest on a number of assumptions such as it being a single target, when a decent ranged characters with IPS can easily hit two or more foes.

    It's a mistake to assume that melee dps is delivered constantly, when in fact it is much easier for a ranged character, with its greater reach to continue to damage foes. Melees moving between targets do no damage, no matter how high their theoretical max dps is.

    That is not a problem with how dps is calculated, but it is a problem when trying to claim the higher number is always better when there are significant differences in delivery.

    My advice, for what it's worth, is the next time you want to discuss something like this, don't weigh in with a strong, poorly supported opinion, then show your ignorance when trying to justify it.

    The community does like to discuss issues of gameplay and rule mechanics, what it doesn't seem like is the guy who starts out by offending people by trashing their favourite build or playstyle, then is revealed to be talking out of his backside.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by blerkington; 03-21-2013 at 08:57 PM.
    Astrican on Khyber

  17. #117
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    5,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    "Tempest is good, AA is bad". You did say this, but then erased it.
    Well, I left my original post in this thread where I argue against AA and in favor of Tempest. So, I don't think your complaint is valid.

    However, I will conclude in this thread by saying that I've posted the results of my damage calculations here.

    Feel free to look at the information posted there.

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload