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Thread: Is AA worth it?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    No, it made it abundantly clear.

    AA ranger is bad. Tempest ranger is good.

    AA ranger is bad. AA monkcher is good.

    And, my initial post on this includes the following:



    Now, compare the monkcher to my description. Not ranger, check. AA is an addition to another character class, check. Other character class has another PrE working for it, check.

    So, tell me where I'm wrong.
    1) A monkcher doesn't NEED another PrE to get 10k stars is your first mistake.
    2) You always forget that a AA can put his bow down after his burst DPS, only to get a minimal penalty to melee DPS in TWF, since most TWF feats are free on a ranger either way.
    3) Fury manyshot, in 20 seconds, assume a low DPS ranger that would only hit 900 a shot as AA we have 75 base, some simple calculations:

    Unbridled fury: Every 3 seconds, Adrenaline every 5 seconds. Manyshot duration: 20 seconds.

    So to add the 20 seconds
    Even assuming only one shot a second we get this (you get more shots)
    3600 on unbridled, this is at seconds: 1,4,7,10,13,16,19 = 7 times = + 25200
    3600 on regular adrenaline: this is at second 2,8,14 (assuming at 20 we're not in time) = 3*3600 = +10800
    300 on regular hits: this is at 3,5,6,9,11,12,15,17,18,20 = 300*10 = +3000
    4 arrows a shot: that means 40 adrenalined arrows of which at average 2 miss: -1800
    That also means 40 not-adrenalined arrows of which, again, 2 miss: -150
    BUT, 80 arrows in total, of which at average 4 vorpal: +2000
    17-20 crit multiplier: From the 40 without adrenaline 8 will crit, assume only *3 multiplier: That will add 8*150 damage which is: 1200 damage

    This is a rlly low DPS ranger, a good unbridled manyshot will hit at average (you boost yourself before doing that and then 75 an arrow is rather low IMO): 25200 + 10800 + 3000 - 1950 + 2000 + 1200 = 40250 damage done in 20 seconds is an average of like 2000 damage per second in this burst. I really rounded down ranged sped as u shoot more by far, but even then the boost of tempest, which is by far too feat-intensive IMO doesn't do the trick, I did not even include additional effects on the weapons and I rounded this down. I hope this helps you understand how in a boss battle where the boss has 150k HP in this case with fortification (raid boss so gets lowered + precision which is musthave on AA), I'll even lower the DPS with 10k (which is ofc not true but I prefer to beat you with numbers that low you can't contradict em): 30k damage in 20 seconds, this means that he'll have 120k HP left by that one player alone. Sorry, but the tempest get's nowhere near winning that DPS boss battle...
    Ainevek: 9/6/2 FvS/ranger/paladin (life 2/?) Shinweng: 8/5/2 monk/wizard/paladin (life 4/3?Abaranda: 18/2 FvS/monk (life 7/?) Kevenia: 6 sorcerer (life 2/?)
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  2. #62
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Also.

    About melee vs ranged.

    Ok, when I say melee, I usually mean Brbs, Ftrs... and sometimes Pallies.
    Monks and Rogues are special.
    and Tempest(bows suck) Rgrs are a whole nother concept alltogether.

    For some reason, the melee guys just love to get beat up.
    Ok.. not really... they love to run in and swing at entire rooms full of mobs, or the biggest boss in the room...

    ...preferably without getting beat up.. but they seem to get just as much enjoyment out of screaming "Heal Me!" while they keep on swinging.

    They also seem unable to not chase after monsters who run from them.... or toward another player.

    And they get quite upset when that other player is using a bow for some reason.


    They also fail to see that time spent running to the monster is lost DPS.
    (with the exception that if any of that running is because a guy with a bow drew agro, they are very quick to point out the lost DPS from them having to chase after the monster)

    They fail to see that the entire party would take less damage if people brought the monsters to the party, and not the other way around.

    (they also... even the Pallies for some reason...seem to lack self healing or any sense of survival..... other than "Heal ME!")



    But... I do admit that a raging Brb or a proper Kensei "do" some very good DPS.
    (if they can stay alive anyway)




    DPS calc:
    The archer can damage the mob during the time that the monster is coming toward the archer.

    The melee guy does not do any DPS during the time he is running to the monsters.

    Yet somehow this fact is never mentioned by the pro-melee DPS calculators. (unless using it to argue against kiting... or even having bow users in their party.)

    Improved Precise shot "can" damage more than one monster at a time.
    Not included in DPS calcs fo rsome reason.

    Although I seldom get many monsters in line to take full advanatage of this.



    Not all dungeons are the closed boxes that the pro-melee DPS crowd pretends they are.
    Infact, a very large number of dungeons have considerable open spaces which greatly favor ranged DPS.

    There are also a lot of monsters out of melee reach. (or who climb walls as they bounce around)

    There are a bunch of mobs who run away when meleed. Or have random agro and run across the room to other targets.

    All of these situations lower melee DPS or improve ranged DPS.

    Still.. I do think that melee DPS is higher than ranged DPS.

    I actually think that all players should use both when appropriate. A pet peave of mine is players who do not carry ranged weapons. As second pet peave is DDO makes most characters ranged options very low DPS.... which encourages players to think ranged is useless.




    PUG enough, and you will have near wipe... with lots of dead players.
    You will run out of resources. Clerics will have no SP.

    A monster will do so much damage that if you melee it, you wil die.

    In these groups, I have seen melee guys die over and over again... sometimes super slowly as they simply whittle away due to no one having any healing resources.

    I have also seen melee guys who realise that they will die again if they try to melee things in that quest... but who do not have any ranged weapons, so they just stand around and watch.


    Yeah, I am sure in your guild world no one ever struggles... they just run in and destroy every quest... and get all the heals they need to do so.

    But in my PUG word, people struggle. (sometimes)

    and ranged can make all the difference when things get tough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  3. #63
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 12:24 PM.

  4. #64
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Both melee and ranged thread were from 2010 and I'm unaware of anything more recent or definitive. However, you joining the conversation suggests we can at least start to work on discovering valid numbers. This is one of your strong points.
    http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...l#Feat_Changes

    2nd point in Feat Changes paragraph.

    These release notes were posted on Monday, September 12th, 2011.
    Last edited by Shaatan; 03-18-2013 at 12:18 PM.

  6. #66
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  7. #67
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 12:25 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Not a forum thread with resulting calculations of its effect. Rather, an announcement that there were changes.
    The change was very significant from what I remember. But still not making single arrow pew pewing better than meleeing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Like I said, you are good with these types of things. Maybe you'd like to start a new thread that actually examines the whole DPS subject with the goal of obtaining a definitive analysis of build choices.
    You are overestimating my math skills here. I do know a fair bit about ranged DPS, but I d have to hire Vanshillar to do the math part for me. Im not sure if he ll have time for it tho, as I know he s pretty busy with other things right now.

  9. #69
    Community Member Narwe's Avatar
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    OP, another reason ranged attacks at useful to a group is the ability to lower saves of a room full of mobs via curse-spewing/wounding puncturing, making it easier for the DC arcanes to instakill.

    Also, you can soften up a group of mobs, doing damage etc. to them as they charge you so that by the time they reach you and your group, they are easy kills. The melee doesn't do any damage during this time interval. This is useful even when not kiting them around i.e., pull them to the party with bow fire (weakening of enfeabling makes them hit like kittens by the time they reach the party), then switch to melee weapons. Ranged combat can support a group very well and need not kite the mobs from the melee (though sometimes it is the best tactic when things go bad even if it means the melee's kill count doesn't look as impressive).

    Toe to toe damage calcs do not take this into account.

    The same goes for melee vs arcane calcs.; what is the dps of a sorc after he has kited a large group of mobs into a pack and drops a wall of fire, etc. on them. Apples and oranges, tough to compare.

  10. #70
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 12:25 PM. Reason: changed 7o to 70

  11. #71
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
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  12. #72
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    AA ranger is behind Tempest melee DPS by about 10%.

    AS ranger's manyshot DPS was able double the damage of a Tempest before FoTW came into play. FoTW's closed the gap but an AA's still gonna put out more since most Tempest don't have room for PBS and IC:Ranged.

    A Tempest gets 20% off-hand, 5% double-strike, 15 PRR (10 for Tempest III . . . 5 for TWD which is the best Tempest III pre-req) and the 7% dodge from the pre-req feats.

    I've done both . . . I'm preferring Tempest right now as the Adrenalines recharge faster with the extra attacks. More adrenalines means more Overwhelming Force and always have some available for manyshot.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamingThor View Post
    Hey.
    So I want to know if AA is still a respected and viable option for a ranger.
    Respected? Depends on who you are trying to impress. Viable option for a Ranger? Sure it is! Especially if you enjoy playing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamingThor View Post
    Will it be accepted into high level raids?
    That depends on the Raid leader i imagine but i don't see why it wouldn't (Unless maybe if Therigar is the star holder)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamingThor View Post
    Will it be shunned for its squishyness?
    That would probably depend if you have a reputation of getting squished often.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamingThor View Post
    And, most importantly, is the DPS enough?
    Enough for what? if you are in a party and they are requiring you to be the only dps of the group then maybe it wont be. But if you are in a Raid and most of the mobs are being killed before you can get 3 shots off then sure...how much DPS do you need for that? lol. If DDO is just a game of dps numbers and not based on what your AA can actually contribute to the completion of a quest, then for some the AA will never have enough DPS (even when it does)
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamingThor View Post
    Just looking ahead.
    Go forward and prosper!

  14. #74
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    And, for those who might think I'm hedging, I'm not.

    Without 10K Stars the AA is behind Tempest before any of the questions I asked. So, it is really only a question of whether 10K Stars actually keeps AA ahead or not under all circumstances.
    Ahhh the Great Myth continues....

    WoWo would b sooo proud of his little lemmings. -warm fuzzy-

  15. #75
    Community Member Kawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamingThor View Post
    Hey.
    So I want to know if AA is still a respected and viable option for a ranger. Will it be accepted into high level raids? Will it be shunned for its squishyness? And, most importantly, is the DPS enough?
    Just looking ahead.
    In game? -yep, certainly viable and respected.
    In forum?
    lol
    -Not with these trolls.

    There's tons of builds and uses.
    All depends on your playstyle, and what you really want your toonie to achieve.
    Pure Archer... Ranged/Melee... doesn't matter.
    From there you can specialize even further.
    Scout/Nurse/DPS/CC... pick what suits you and go from there.
    can split them however you like.

    Whichever you choose, have fun with it, and enjoy.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    So, the question remains, what are the numbers when we take into account STR and ED.

    Consider some important parts. The 10K Stars is based on 40 WIS. How does that affect build and what is the difference in STR when DEX and CON are also used to suggest the build being compared?
    40 WIS is actually a pretty low bar I put that just about anyone should be able to reach easily. On ranger based AA, you get nearly all feats for free, which means that you can completly dump DEX. Also, with the amount of spare feats that this build offers, you can even afford to take 5 - 6 Toughness feats and lower your CON by a lot while still having decent HP. This way you can pretty easily max both STR and WIS.

    As Epic Destinies go, AAs have a huge advantage in FoTW, because ALL the arrows that they shoot with 1 animation get extra dmg and crit range bonus from Adrenaline. Meaning that, if you hit adrenaline with manyshot - ALL 4 arrows that you shoot with 1 animation will have their damage and crit range increased, as opposed to melees that get those bonuses only on their first hit and not even a glancing blow or offhand attack.
    The extra +3[W] on Pin and Otto's Whistler also make some huge damage difference on adrenaline shots (not to mention that they make mobs helpless). Last time I tried to cleave with Adrenaline on my barbarian, it wasnt even working and I was only wasting an Adrenaline charge (worked properly only on Supreme Cleave). Not sure how its now, it seems to be fixed but not completly.

    192 shots with Manyshot only where each shot does an average of 70 points of damage is 13440.
    This calculation assumes that builds with no 10k Stars would just sit there and pew pew with single arrow like idiots. Have some faith in people and atleast assume that they are meleeing outside of manyshot. I dont think that there are still people around who think that pew pewing with single arrow does anything good.

  17. #77
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 12:26 PM.

  18. #78
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    some heroic levels math, again, did something change ?

    If you don't have 10k stars, does 20s huge fury burst make up for 100s of weak 1 ...arrow ... at... the time plinking ?
    Attack per attack, a single arrow does the same as a melee Battleaxe I think. 1-8 crit 20 x3.

    Actually... since you can add in effects from the arrow and the bow, it can do more damage.
    The attack speed is what makes melee better.

    Crit range also plays in here, but that is a different subject actually, because then you have to acount for what mobs can be critted.....

    It might be fair to incude glancing blows in the discussion though...




    One point I was trying to make is that is that I prefer the Whoo Hhooo! a 20! it's dead!
    to I killed it in 30% less swings..... feels kinda lame to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  19. #79
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 12:26 PM.

  20. #80
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    All very good points but problematic for someone like me with only limited math skills. I'm pretty sure that those with better skills can build models that take time and distance (and even cooperative mobs who line up behind one another) into account.

    This game has been running since '06 and the same discussions keep recurring. Yet, there is no definitive comparison of the different combat stances and which of them is better at producing maximum damage.

    For example, the closing time between characters and mobs during which a ranged character can cause damage -- is the damage done here more or less than the delta calculated when everything is toe-to-toe?

    Ranged proponents will believe that it is. Melee proponents will believe that it is not. Is there any testing to demonstrate that it is (or isn't) and what impact does this have on the overall discussion?

    IMO, the first step is getting accurate estimates of shots per minute under all circumstances and with all alacrity considerations. This then can be compared to the animations per minute (which equates to attacks per minute) of melee characters.

    From there information can be plugged in to account for weapon damage, STR, and so on. It can even be used to compare damage based on specific quest bosses where things like DR, immunities, etc. can be taken into account.

    Now this goes beyond the scope of the original question and this thread. But, IMO, it is a necessary step.
    My love of ranged is more about not getting beat up and not having to chase things, than DPS.

    I do like Manyshot and Slayer arrows with Improved Precise shot though....
    There are tmes when having that kind of burst DPS is very valuable.



    One of my frequent arguments in Ranged vs Melee DPS discussions is that most of the time max DPS is not needed.

    Anyway, I bring up most of these things just to counter those who act like ranged DPS is so far behind melee as to be meaningless.... and that is just not true.

    I do think ranged is behind. But I think the difference is not as great as most people think.... and there are a lot of situations where I think Ranged DPS is superior.

    I wish explorer areas had kill counts. The more space you have to cross greatly favors ranged.
    I know of no way to calculate that.... but it should be easy enough for people to accept.



    There is also a fun factor.
    I play toons to have fun. I could kinda care less about how much DPS they do, as log as I enjoy it.

    I can tell you that I am feeling disappointed with my lvl 20 Rgr lately.... but this is since EDs came out.

    Back when the cap was 20, I was very happy with my Rgr20.

    ( I have many alts....the char I am refering to is one I haven't played much since MOTU)


    My preferd playstyle... especially for low levels is TWF.
    I seldom range in lower lvl quests.
    Exceptions are ranged firnedly quests... with wide open areas... (Stormcleave)

    But at higher levels I range more often.
    Mostly because the threat of being beat up is greater.
    Secondly because I start getting use better bows and AA enhancments.

    But when I get Slayer arows I range a little more often , just to watch those 20s roll.
    It's fun to single shot kill things.


    I tend to hold Manyshot in reserve, but there are plenty of times when I decide to just let loose..... maybe even kite... just because I want to show off.

    I've been in groups that were talking abouthow to handle a certain fight.... and then I just jumped into the room, hit Manyshot and Improved Precise shot and agroed the entire room..... circle jump kiting.....

    Probably made the whole party a little upset.... but I just felt like showing off.... lol.
    Party hardly got hurt at all.... everything was agroed on me...

    I do not do this often.... normally I avoid kiting.
    for me, kiting is a purposeful action I choose, with a god idea of the results before I do it.

    I generally play in a party friendly manner....
    But there are times when I just want to have fun with my toon.


    Anyway, ranged is fun.
    Rangers are fun.

    and survivable.
    I would gladly take a full group of Rgrs into any dungeon.

    I would not feel the same way about a full group of melee.

    It's not all about the DPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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