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Thread: Is AA worth it?

  1. #41
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  2. #42
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    AA is fine. It has lower damage generally, but higher burst damage during manyshot.

    Tempest has higher damage generally, and lower burst damage during manyshot.

    In the current state of the game I think there's a very good argument that 20 seconds of better burst damage ever 2 minutes is the superior choice. At the very least it's viable.

    If a EDIT: [Pure, non-monkcher] Ranger under either PRE is firing the bow outside of manyshot except for in exceptional circumstances (like kiting a dragon in FoT or Tor) then they're playing terribly, and to my mind that style of gameplay falls outside of a fair discussion of the PREs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    If a EDIT: [Pure, non-monkcher] Ranger under either PRE is firing the bow outside of manyshot except for in exceptional circumstances (like kiting a dragon in FoT or Tor) then they're playing terribly, and to my mind that style of gameplay falls outside of a fair discussion of the PREs.
    I thought it is an universal ( not just forum ) knowledge, that 10k stars and well geared monkchers work, and if you don't have 10k stars then you should melee because you are doing third of the melee damage at best.

    Did anything change ?
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  4. #44
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  5. #45
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    I have a weird feeling that Therigar is either playing different game or living in parallel world (huh, or maybe stuck in 2009/2010?).

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    First, I have to say that I'm not a power player, and dont make any claims of extensive knowledge of playing this game. I simply enjoy playing the game. Among my various experiments (toons), I have a 18rg 1ftr 1 rogue tempest ranger, a pure elven AA, and a pure barb.... all at level 25. All are fairly decently equipped, or at least as well as I am able to equip them (my AA doesnt have Pinion, but my barb does have the AGA and Cleaver from Lolth raid,. the Tempests weapons are pretty much the same as the AA's). I must agree that the barb is the strongest when it comes to dps, the tempest not so great and the AA the weakest in melee. HOWEVER, if I had to pick a toon to do EN, or EH solo without a hireling, I would not hesitate to pick my AA... She can kill or weaken most monsters much faster from a distance (capstone & imbue arrows with mostly melfs acid), then finish them off with melee if necessary. In short, I think my AA is simply the most survivable of the 3. Of course, these are just my observations from playing the game, with no dps meter. With a healer hireling, the barb is the best (as long as the hireling doesnt die :-) BTW, all 3 toons are 28pt builds as since the ED's came out, I am in no hurry to tr them.

  7. #47
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    I thought it is an universal ( not just forum ) knowledge, that 10k stars and well geared monkchers work, and if you don't have 10k stars then you should melee because you are doing third of the melee damage at best.

    Did anything change ?
    I think my edit made things unclear. Agreed that a monkcher should be using a bow 3/4 of the time. My completionist is a Monkcher!
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 03-18-2013 at 08:15 AM.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  9. #49
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  10. #50
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaatan View Post
    I have a weird feeling that Therigar is either playing different game or living in parallel world (huh, or maybe stuck in 2009/2010?).
    Lol +1
    I had a similar thought myself.

    @Therigar

    The problem here is that you assume, since this person had multiple past lives, he was not a noob.
    Sadly you're mistaken. I happen to know a completionist or two on Argo who are complete noobs.
    I love them and all, and i wouldn't group with anyone else, but they're noobs all the same.

    You also assume that since this person was a TR, they had experience with playing AA's.
    Or where good at it..

    As to your other points, I agree. This is a conversation about Rangers, and nothing else. Which I stated in my other post.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 11:24 AM.

  12. #52
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Lol +1
    I had a similar thought myself.

    @Therigar

    The problem here is that you assume, since this person had multiple past lives, he was not a noob.
    Sadly you're mistaken. I happen to know a completionist or two on Argo who are complete noobs.
    I love them and all, and i wouldn't group with anyone else, but they're noobs all the same.

    You also assume that since this person was a TR, they had experience with playing AA's.
    Or where good at it..

    As to your other points, I agree. This is a conversation about Rangers, and nothing else. Which I stated in my other post.
    And sometimes they are more concerned with leveling than playing the class. I know of few of those on my server as well.
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  13. #53
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taters214 View Post
    I love not having to chase after enemies.
    This made me smile, the topic being what it is.

    Apologies for the disruption, as you were.

  14. #54
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    DELETED -- Reason: Planned future thread comparing combat styles.
    Last edited by Therigar; 03-19-2013 at 11:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    For every poster in the forums insisting that they don't play this way there are hundreds on the servers who do.

    And there are hundreds of barbarians that play like complete tards . . . does that mean that class/style is bad?

    I've ran into countless terrible casters . . . the biggest easy-button in DDO and some people can't make that work.

    Most who play DDO are terrible, being good at a video game isn't a valuable life-skill, it's just how it is.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    You do a good job of setting the parameters for DPS comparison when talking rangers and which PrE to select.

    Now, what is left is to compare damage.

    Manyshot gives 4 arrows per attack and we know already that the fastest reported attack speeds for archers is 100 shots/83 seconds. This is 72 shots per minute or 24 shots in 20 seconds.

    In 2m20s that is (72*2)+(4*24)=240 shots. Using the numbers already established for a single shot's damage, this is ~73*240=~17564 (damage per shot is 73.18 using Pinion with Slayer Arrows but no STR or epic destinies included).

    In that same 2m20s melee damage is ~117*~310=~36250 (damage per hit w 100% off-hand is 116.81 and TWF is 310.33 attacks using Swailing Blade but no STR or epic destinies included).

    Now, once again, I invite the AA supporters here to figure out the impact of STR and ED and to give the most favorable to both calculations. But, clearly ranged all the time is far behind melee all the time. Numbers are roughly HALF the DPS.

    Of course, there is the hybrid which would be non-Tempest GTWF for 2m and AA for 20s.

    AA 20s burst is 4*24*73=7008. 20s is 1/7 of 2m20s. 36250/7=~5179 (5178.57). To match the DPS of pure Tempest the hybrid combat must be 7008+29242 (this adds to 36250).

    It has already been shown that with just 36 STR the non-Tempest is doing only 90% of the damage that Tempest does. Tempest in the 2m is doing 36250-5179=31017. But, the 29242 the non-Tempest needs is ~94% of the Tempest damage (94.27).

    Adding STR and ED should increase the distance between the AA ranger and the Tempest ranger presuming that STR is equal and that optimal ED decisions are made for each character.

    Do you realize that your source of ranged attack speed is from 2010 ? Meaning that its from before the change to Rapid Shot. If I remember correctly, my AA was shooting ~100 arrows per minute (will double check it once servers go back up). Here s some really simple math for ya:

    100 arrows per minute = ~1,6 arrow per second
    manyshot = 4 arrows per shot for 20 sec = 1,6*20*4 = 128
    10k Stars = multiple arrows for 30 sec (with 40+ WIS its avarage 3 arrows per shot from my experiance but lets assume its 2) = 1,6*30*2 = 96
    But guess what... a minute lasts 60 seconds, not 50, so you can start another 10k Stars and add the numbers from 10 sec of using it.
    1,6*10*2=32

    That makes: 128+96+32=256 shots per minute. Which means that even if AA's damage per hit would be half of Tempest's (which is obiviously not true), AA would still be ahead DPS wise. Not to mention that in Fury of The Wild destiny you get damage bonus to all arrows that you shoot at once with manyshot/10k Stars.
    You will probably mention that with perma 10 stacks of Master's Blitz a Tempest would definitely beat that but you are forgetting about 2 things.
    1) Its pretty hard to keep 10 Blitz stacks on you unless you are solo.
    2) AAs can use Master's Blitz too.

    And yes, you can have 10k Stars and Ranger icon. You need only 6 monk levels for it. I actually did solo 6 raids as AA ranger http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=404523, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=391512.

    But hey, lets give a shot to an AA build without 10k Stars.
    Manyshot = 1,6*20*4=128
    Outside of manyshot = 1,6*40=64

    128+64=192 shots per minute. Less impressive but still more than Tempest. Tho, I do agree that with a build that doesnt have 10k Stars you d be probably better off meleeing outside of manyshot.

  17. #57
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    No, it made it abundantly clear.

    AA ranger is bad. Tempest ranger is good.

    AA ranger is bad. AA monkcher is good.

    And, my initial post on this includes the following:



    Now, compare the monkcher to my description. Not ranger, check. AA is an addition to another character class, check. Other character class has another PrE working for it, check.

    So, tell me where I'm wrong.
    I meant my post was unclear. I was clarifying that I was indeed on the side considering AA's a viable choice. It seemed to at least 1 poster that I didn't think Monkchers should be using a bow apart from when Manyshotting which is not what I meant. I think everyone is on the same page about Monkchers being hot sauce.

    Re: where you're wrong.
    Burst damage is better than average damage. Higher burst damage is better than higher average damage.

    I'm not even convinced though, that Tempest does have higher average damage in EDs after thinking about it. The number of Slayer Arrow attacks you get during an adrenaline burst probably more than makes up for the other 100 seconds.

    EDIT: Oh meh, ignore this. Shataan's answer is substantially more thorough and he actually has played with the EDs on an AA!
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  18. #58
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    BTW, awhile back, I tested melee and ranged DPS on my AA with a training dummy.

    My findings were that for my build a Rgr20/AA with slayer arrows and Manyshot did extremely high DPS..... but... it varied widely depending on how many "20s" were rolled.

    for non-manyshot, melee DPS was ahead...... barely.........but again wide variation depending on the number of 20s rolled.

    People were quick to point out that I made errors that favored ranged during my tests.

    They also pointed out that my build did weak melee (and some argued ranged) DPS.

    I eventually agreed with their arguments.... to a point....
    But not to the point of saying ranged only does 1/3rd melee DPS..... I clearly did not see ranged doing only 1/3 DPS.

    If anything, I might admit melee doing 1/3rd more DPS than ranged.... but that is way less of a difference than ranged only doing 1/3.



    AND!

    That was a single, non-moving target that did not fight back!


    So... my experience tells me that melee "does" do more DPS.... in general.... but not nearly as much as people act like it does.



    However, my experience also tells me that a Rgr "cannot" do anywhere near the "melee" DPS of a raging Brb or well made Kensei.

    Oh, and I have tried Tempest.. and my opinion is they suck!
    But that is partially because of my playstyle and expectations.


    Actually... my playstyle and expectations says alot.

    I hate chasing monsters.
    I hate not being able to see my target. Clouds.... Hezrou behinds....trees.....etc.

    While I do enjoy TWF on my Rgrs, there are so many situations where I just say screw it, and pull out the bow.

    Also, I hate to get beat up. I hate dying.

    Rgrs (mine anyway) don't get beat up.

    firery death rains down all around me, and I just shrug it off.
    Evasion and a good Ref save are awesome! Amazes me that afetr seven years most players do not see this yet.

    (the completionist crowd, "is" starting to see this. Their characters have great saves too.... they just fail to understand that few other players can reach those saves without investing in Dex)

    Plus... back to the subject.... I can range things!
    I don't have to chase them.
    I can damage and hopefull kill them before they even get to me.
    I can bring only a few toward me.... not having to get swarmed by an entire room full. (I'm also stealthy)

    and I have slayer arrows!
    Now... I realise that slayer arrows are not great sustained and reliable DPS.

    But that only really matters against super HP mobs IMO.

    Ya see, getting slightly more DPS out of Tempest... isn't impressive on trash. (or when 11 other guys are beating on the same thing)

    But one-shotting trash cause I rolled a 20 "is" impressive.
    I like it!

    A Tempest cannot do that.

    Give me a room full of monsters, Manyshot, slayer arrows, and my patented circle them, constant tabbing-agro the whole room, improved precise shot, Leeroy moments!
    Well... you'll see a whole lot of 20s and a whole lot of numbers on your screen.

    Tempest just is not nearly as fulfilling.
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  19. #59
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    If anything, I might admit melee doing 1/3rd more DPS than ranged.... but that is way less of a difference than ranged only doing 1/3.
    some heroic levels math, again, did something change ?

    If you don't have 10k stars, does 20s huge fury burst make up for 100s of weak 1 ...arrow ... at... the time plinking ?
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    some heroic levels math, again, did something change ?
    Thats a good point. Using bow during leveling is a pain. Its just not any good untill you have IPS, Manyshot that shoots for atleast 3 arrows (and 10k Stars if thats in your build). While leveling AAs I was finding myself mostly meleeing until higher levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    If you don't have 10k stars, does 20s huge fury burst make up for 100s of weak 1 ...arrow ... at... the time plinking ?
    It doesnt. Builds that dont have 10k Stars are forced to melee outside of manyshot (and a few other situations) to sustain DPS.

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