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  1. #21
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    As many have said above, artificers are massively front loaded, and at low levels can be powerful.

    However, having just levelled up a juggernaut who only used greataxes/falchions during levelling, and with limited self healing during that time (I was mainly using wands / scrolls out of combat as I didn't pick up reconstruct til taking level 20 and I didn't take maximise or empower either so my repair spells weren't hitting for much), i.e. an artificer who was using pretty much none of the special abilities, I can't say I had a terribly hard time just cleaving/great cleaving through mobs.
    Yeah, but I'm doing the same thing with both a Bard and a FLESHY Wizard, and not having a hard time with those either (both are in the desert).

    In other words, for experienced players, I doubt that the class features make that much difference to power during heroic levelling. Low levels are trivial for most well built characters, and even the mid- to high- levels aren't that tough.
    A smart player can level a ham sandwich then rock the world w/ Fury or LD.
    On my jugg, levels 17 and 18 (which I stayed at until I had the xp for 20) felt the most underpowered vs. the pure artificer I played the previous life, but by that point most other classes have caught up with or surpassed the artificer on the power curve.
    Truly a potentially painful spot for lots of build mixes.

    Repeater dps seems high when you're low level, but by the time you hit epic content, it really falls away. On my old pure artificer, EH was solo'able, but EE content was too much for the build (i.e. I could contribute, but other classes, particularly melee, were much more powerful).

    The runearms too are powerful up to EH content (pretty much one- or two- shotting trash on a full charge) but again fall away on EE content.
    Seriously agree here. It's less the plain DPS; the mobility hurts me too. Lower levels you can stand and mow **** down. Once **** doesn't mow down, you want to be able to reposition, and repeater + charged rune arm is not a good combo there.

    The main reason I went juggernaut on my current artificer is that the endgame today is built around dps, and melee (plus fury'd manyshot) is really the optimal way to deliver that damage. A pure artificer cannot compete with melee dps largely because of the lack of any good EDs (probably the closest to a damage destiny for the artificer is FotW, but you lose a lot from not having access to overwhelming force on ranged damage). Its also difficult to reach the DCs required for EE content - up to High Road content you can just about get there if you have 3xSorc PL, 1xWiz PL, and preferably completionist, but hitting the 60+ DCs needed for eGH is a stretch too far with current in-game gear.
    You're much better off going with damage (which works everywhere) or with a CHARACTER level based DC component.

    TL;DR - artificers are a strong, fun class up to EH content, who gain power quickly at low levels but who are more or less equal to other builds by level 20. For EE content, they don't bring much to the table beyond excellent weapon buffs, unreliable area cc via tactical detonation, and mediocre ranged dps.
    Good summary - but I'd add that the success of the Juggernauts is that the core of the platform remains relevant if you re-spec it just for DPS.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  2. #22
    Community Member MnaSidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    The problem here is not with Artificer per se.

    It's with the fact that the Repeater X-Bow even without being feated up for it is INSANE compared to the other choices you have on that build!
    Well... I would take 1 level of artificer. I would not buy the proficiency in repeating crossbow.
    That alone tends to make me think that something with artificer is the problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    It's the same issue with 2 Monk Splash Builds!
    The last CLONK I built used quarterstaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    i.e. an 18/2 Fighter/Arti should NOT be able to use Lucid Dreams or Archaic Device BUT should have to use Thought Spike!
    I agree with that.
    I remember there being a bug where the rune arm used the character level instead of the artificer level... that was fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    This change alone would help remove Mini-Arti Splashes and push the Deeper Multiclass!
    I would rather say "BALANCE" than "REMOVE". But then I have never splashed 2 levels of arti into anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I can't see a way to do this for the Mini-Monk Splash unfortunately other than to move Evasion to Lvl 6 for Monks - Which would be seen as a Massive Nerf by the population at large!
    I would love to quote Tommy Lee Jones from MiB here... people are dumb, panicky animals (or something like that). Evasion is not needed until long after level 6. Maybe better would be to make it a feat available to all with a DEX prerequisite of 18 or something!

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    And would also of course just bring the 2 Rogue Splash into more focus! {another Cheese splash}.
    Nothing wrong with Cheese. But Monks got dumped after first edition AD&D for a reason!

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    BTW...That 2 Rogue Splash could easily be countered Devs by making Traps and Locks over Lvl 10 {Elite} require a minimum of 4 Rogue/Arti Levels to Disable/Open AND Traps/Locks over Lvl 17 {Elite} require at Least 6 Rogue/Arti Levels to Disable/Open!
    Another great idea! Unfortunately I am prohibited from +1ing the same post more than once!

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Knock would need Boosting too obviously! {But then again it already does need Boosting - If only to make the Crystal Cove wands worth getting!}.
    CC is never worth it. I have now 7 lives and I can say that there is nothing in CC that will help me more for life 8, 9 or 10...
    But knock does need a boost. My friendly local sorc is now starting to regularly fail stuff!

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Artis are great to play from Lvl 1-16 -
    I'm an Altoholic and I've capped 2 arti's... one without TR...
    If you are interested in Endgame I would do something else... but for the heroic levels... nothing is easier (except FVS post L12)
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  3. #23
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    I've also capped an Arti twice. That feeling that you get while soloing elite almost to cap and crying out, "I AM A GOD!" will quickly turn to ,"I'M PRETTY DECENT!" around cap and afterwards.

    Highly survivable in Epics and generally useful to parties. Totally viable, but the feelings of grandeur one has leveling are not continued past 18 really.

  4. #24
    Community Member Seager52's Avatar
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    Bards are much better than arti’s at end game IMO. But ultimately it’s the player that dictates the result more than the class in many cases.

    I am not going to quote everyone because I don’t want to waste more of my time but here is what I have seen:

    Bards songs make people wait and can’t be done on the run: What are you an old player and stopped playing, like 4 years ago, bards can sing on the run. I tell the party to run as I sing, if they miss one tell me, I have so many songs I will sing it again.
    Bard songs are bugged: Really, this is news to me; maybe my bard is special because mine all work.

    Fascinate is not good with a party: Well you need a different party, maybe I’m spoiled because I play with guildies that follow instructions

    Arti is good DPS: Agree with most on this thread, great at low level, mediocre at best at high level

    Bards do not have a reliable full heal: I will disagree at end game, slotting a devo item I self heal about 200-300 and cocoon so I’m set, if I have to heal the part at a cleric wipe I have to use a few pots but that’s what I keep them for.
    Feats: Yes bards are a bit feat starved but I have two levels of fighter (melee bard) and I do fine. You only need maximize for a melee bard (some say empower of empower healing but I’m not sold on it yet)

    Pet: …..yeah I think I will be alright without one

    Blade barrier: This is great DPS with a flame turret in the middle and kiting, but then again the argument was made about fascinate with a party so the same could be said here. *Party*:”Yea arti go ahead and kite everything around your blade barrier, we like chasing it”

    Bard buffs: Bard buffs are slow, as said above, but they last a bit longer and can be done on the run. They also yield the most DPS increase, damage reduction (Warchanter 5 dr and 4% dodge from inspire heroics), attack bonus (someone might find that useful *shrug*, and stat increase, inspire excellence.

    DPS: With destinies a battle bard has good DPS , especially with turn the tide, as well as all the extra damage the party melee does is the bards DPS, it wouldn’t be there without them so if you think about it they could be the highest DPS in the game.
    Conclusion: For me I prefer bard, others do better as an arti. The best for raid buff is to have both.
    Seager, Seagar, Jayrixx, Dezaray, Guiled, Glorysong

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  5. #25
    Community Member MnaSidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seager52 View Post
    Pet: …..yeah I think I will be alright without one
    +1 if I could! I will bookmark and come back to give!
    That is so true!
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  6. #26
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Pets help you solo POP elite, The Pit, Delera's, etc... But yeah even with +6 to all abilities(+2 from druid), I rarely took him out for a walk.

    Some people use them as pretty decent tanks. I could not be bothered.

  7. #27
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    Everything is OP! Nerf everything into indistinguishable grey mulch! It's the fun new thing to do between updates!

  8. #28
    Community Member MnaSidhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimkj View Post
    Everything is OP! Nerf everything into indistinguishable grey mulch! It's the fun new thing to do between updates!
    I'd rather see something done to make arti (and druid) pets capable of being something useful in epic quests (as opposed to being something that just gets summoned to instantly drain sp/hp... have they fixed uncaring master yet?!?!)
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  9. #29
    Community Member Viconiax's Avatar
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    If people know how to build their toon right, there is no such thing as over-powered

    The person that normally yell out for nerf is normally the one that build their toon wrong then compare their "bad" toon with another person "good" toon.

  10. #30
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Spontaneously odd question:

    How does Artificer handle becoming Fatesinger?

    Spontaneously not-odd question:

    Is it worth it taking one of the body feats as a Warforged Artificer? I haven't seen much in the way of discussion on this O_o
    Once I get my moods under control, I might actually get a character past level 7... ooh, shiny!

    Paladins got some love! Now for Warpriests...

  11. #31
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MnaSidhe View Post
    Well... I would take 1 level of artificer. I would not buy the proficiency in repeating crossbow.
    That alone tends to make me think that something with artificer is the problem!
    1 Level of Arti gives you the Prof in Hvy Repeating X-Bow FREE!
    Rogue Mech gives it at Lvl 12 {you have to make do with Light Repeaters from Lvl 6-11!}.
    No other class gives this Feat at all!

    Monk gives Handwraps and the ability to use them properly FREE!
    No other class gives this at all!

    Once you have the Proficiency with either of these weapons there really is no real need to EVER use another weapon type pre Epic!


    Quote Originally Posted by MnaSidhe View Post
    The last CLONK I built used quarterstaves.
    I have a Rogue Acrobat {Lvl 18 atm with 2 Fighter and 2 Monk Levels}!
    I still do my best to stick with the Staves BUT I know she's just as good {if not better} with Wraps {and I've specced for Two Handed Fighting NOT for Two Weapon!}.

    For Clonks there does happen to be a VERY GOOD reason to stick with the Staff - Thaumaturgy!

    Quote Originally Posted by MnaSidhe View Post
    I would rather say "BALANCE" than "REMOVE". But then I have never splashed 2 levels of arti into anything.
    I'm fine with Balance myself!
    Remove would be against the mantra of DDO - No Forcing us into Cookie Cutter Builds {Tank, Healer, DPS etc.}.

    Quote Originally Posted by MnaSidhe View Post
    I would love to quote Tommy Lee Jones from MiB here... people are dumb, panicky animals (or something like that). Evasion is not needed until long after level 6. Maybe better would be to make it a feat available to all with a DEX prerequisite of 18 or something!
    Agreed but it would seem to much of a Nerf to many!

    Quote Originally Posted by MnaSidhe View Post
    Nothing wrong with Cheese. But Monks got dumped after first edition AD&D for a reason!
    I'm a HUUUUGE Fan of AD&D 2nd Ed!
    I loathe 3rd Ed and am not a fan of 3.5 or 4th either!
    I AM However pretty happy with DDO and know that 2nd Ed. did NOT work well for Computer Games!

    And Monks were brought back in 3rd Ed/3.5 with a Vengeance!
    R.A. Salvatore Even kept a 1st Edition Monk in his Cleric Quintet {written for 2nd Ed. Forgotten Realms}!

    I'm NOT against Monks per se - I do however wish they were more like the 2nd Ed. and Western European Monk Clerics than Grasshopper!

    Quote Originally Posted by MnaSidhe View Post
    CC is never worth it. I have now 7 lives and I can say that there is nothing in CC that will help me more for life 8, 9 or 10...
    But knock does need a boost. My friendly local sorc is now starting to regularly fail stuff!
    Sorry but after 7+ lives there's surely very little that you haven't already got and that isn't brand new that you actually want!

    I mentioned the Crystal Cove Wands because they're one of the VERY FEW ways to spend Gold Doubloons - And they're Currently virtually useless thanks to...
    1. Massive UMD requirement UNLESS Wiz/Sorc! {has Knock spell anyway or can easily scroll it!}
    2. Min Lvl to use being EXACTLY the same as the Lvl of the Wand - Meaning that in Elite at Lvl Content said Wand is Totally Useless!

    Knock does NEED a Boost anyway!

    Quote Originally Posted by MnaSidhe View Post
    I'm an Altoholic and I've capped 2 arti's... one without TR...
    If you are interested in Endgame I would do something else... but for the heroic levels... nothing is easier (except FVS post L12)
    I'm making a seperate thread to speak about this as I'm going way off topic!

  12. #32
    Community Member Kilbar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    I'm a HUUUUGE Fan of AD&D 2nd Ed!
    I loathe 3rd Ed and am not a fan of 3.5 or 4th either!
    I AM However pretty happy with DDO and know that 2nd Ed. did NOT work well for Computer Games!

    And Monks were brought back in 3rd Ed/3.5 with a Vengeance!
    R.A. Salvatore Even kept a 1st Edition Monk in his Cleric Quintet {written for 2nd Ed. Forgotten Realms}!

    I'm NOT against Monks per se - I do however wish they were more like the 2nd Ed. and Western European Monk Clerics than Grasshopper!
    2e Über Alles!

  13. #33
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    For most classes, their power scales along a vertical axis. Sorcs and barbs don't do more things, they just do the things they do bigger. Their power can be represented by an obelisk.

    Arti's scale along the horizontal axis. The power of the repeater plateaus early, and then they need to look at adding another feature to add more mass to their representation. The repeater alone will not cut it late game. Repeater + Rune Arm + Tac-Det + etc. Their power representation is an inverted pyramid.


    From my personal experience, I loved playing my artificer. It was my first character that I got to level 20, my first champion build. I had a lot of fun raiding and gearing up other alts at cap, back before MotU.... But when MotU hit, she was so lackluster. Every guildie I played with quickly climbed a steep power curve in a synergistic destiny while I was stuck in the Arcane sphere. It wasn't until I had read that Rusted Blades was going to be changed, that myself and a few friends spent a marathon one Saturday doing 2 minute RBs, that I got over to unlock Shiradi. Then, I think she really began to shine again.

    Recently, I had such great fun in CC doing CR 30 instances, and single-handedly guarding home base. Slaver's hand crossbow, improved precise shot, shiradi nerve toxin, and double rainbow made for an easy time dealing with all Incoming. Yea, the true min-maxxers would probably frown on my damage, it taking about 8 or 9 volleys to bring down those trash mobs. But having a neat little line of 4-7 of them, and bringing them all down; stunned, helpless, proccing rainbows; in 9 volleys made for a fun time.


    I had read previously that monks had the most active play style, requiring much keyboard-fu. Honestly, I must be doing it wrong. My bard and my arti have much greater activity to their playstyles, and a much larger bag-of-tricks to draw from that I enjoy playing them much more.


    Anyway, tangent aside... the original point...

    Sorcs go Big. Artis and Bards go Wide.

  14. #34
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    1 Level of Arti gives you the Prof in Hvy Repeating X-Bow FREE!
    Rogue Mech gives it at Lvl 12 {you have to make do with Light Repeaters from Lvl 6-11!}.
    No other class gives this Feat at all!

    Monk gives Handwraps and the ability to use them properly FREE!
    No other class gives this at all!

    Once you have the Proficiency with either of these weapons there really is no real need to EVER use another weapon type pre Epic!
    This is bad advice. Carnifex is a much better choice from 4-11, and a lit II falchion from 12-20 - particularly with only 2 monk levels, as wraps are only 1d6 20x2 base. Unless you're a level 6+ artificer, xbows are much worse than bows as you level up, as you need the +Int damage to keep them useful.


    I have a Rogue Acrobat {Lvl 18 atm with 2 Fighter and 2 Monk Levels}!
    I still do my best to stick with the Staves BUT I know she's just as good {if not better} with Wraps {and I've specced for Two Handed Fighting NOT for Two Weapon!}.

    For Clonks there does happen to be a VERY GOOD reason to stick with the Staff - Thaumaturgy!
    Staves aren't really a strong weapons choice except for specific named ones. Thats why the wraps are better. The stout walking stick will be much higher dps at level 20 than the wraps. If you compare wraps to optimal weapon types (greataxe/falchion/scimitar/khopesh/rapier) the weapons will always beat out wraps on a 2 monk splash.

  15. #35
    Community Member chrisgina39's Avatar
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    while i can see how they aren't as good in EE they still feel a bit OP in heroic

    as for "its not them that's OP in everything else that UP"

    this i would argue this i think artificers have too much if every class had as much as artificers did i think the game would be a bit out of balance now at the same time i can see what your saying bards could use a buff and don't have allot of spell i think they should(mass hold for 1)

    as for trying to get people to take heavy multiclasses(via the 4 lvls of rogue to disable traps higher the lvl 10) i would be fine with this... as soon as they make it so anymore then 1-3 levels doesn't completely gimp any caster wanting to DC cast or for that matter any type of casting

    also since the 2 rogue 18 wiz build was mentioned keep in mind you lose quite a bit for what you gain i would gain evasion and trap-finding for 1 DC and 2 spell pen arti already have most of rogues useful skills(they do miss out of a few) and repeating crossbows without sacrificing the capstone


    o and artificers still have allot in terms of power outside of DPS they make a very nice support class in epic taking the slot of secondary healer buffer trap disabler and quite a few other things

  16. #36
    Community Member Loriac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisgina39 View Post
    while i can see how they aren't as good in EE they still feel a bit OP in heroic
    Sorcs are more powerful from the start than artificers, and most good melee will be far better dps from level 12 onwards (once you can break out your LitII falchion). Levels 1-11 take a few hours of play, so I really don't see the sense in looking at this range and basing your conclusion as to artificers' power on it.

    as for "its not them that's OP in everything else that UP"

    this i would argue this i think artificers have too much if every class had as much as artificers did i think the game would be a bit out of balance now at the same time i can see what your saying bards could use a buff and don't have allot of spell i think they should(mass hold for 1)
    Damage - good at low levels, outperformed by melee from level 12+
    Nukes - outperformed by sorcs from level 1+
    Selfhealing - good, but only if you're WF
    CC - good, but again outperformed by arcanes and bards.
    Trapskills - meh at best unless you solo a lot

    The artificer is a good choice if you want all the above in a pure level 20 package, but multiclass builds will definitely outperform it across a range of areas if built right.

    o and artificers still have allot in terms of power outside of DPS they make a very nice support class in epic taking the slot of secondary healer buffer trap disabler and quite a few other things
    What? have you actually played an artificer at endgame? They have essentially one (very desirable) buff, i.e. deadly weapons. They can scroll heal but lack the ability to deal with spike damage via blue bar healing unless the target is warforged. They deal mediocre dps, and whilst they do have very good trapskills, these are also possible by pretty much any 1 or 2 rogue splash.

    I'm not saying they're undesirable, but this thread seems intended to try to get them nerfed, and you seem to be basing it on your experiences in low level heroic content.

  17. #37
    Community Member chrisgina39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loriac View Post
    Sorcs are more powerful from the start than artificers, and most good melee will be far better dps from level 12 onwards (once you can break out your LitII falchion). Levels 1-11 take a few hours of play, so I really don't see the sense in looking at this range and basing your conclusion as to artificers' power on it.



    Damage - good at low levels, outperformed by melee from level 12+
    Nukes - outperformed by sorcs from level 1+
    Selfhealing - good, but only if you're WF
    CC - good, but again outperformed by arcanes and bards.
    Trapskills - meh at best unless you solo a lot

    The artificer is a good choice if you want all the above in a pure level 20 package, but multiclass builds will definitely outperform it across a range of areas if built right.



    What? have you actually played an artificer at endgame? They have essentially one (very desirable) buff, i.e. deadly weapons. They can scroll heal but lack the ability to deal with spike damage via blue bar healing unless the target is warforged. They deal mediocre dps, and whilst they do have very good trapskills, these are also possible by pretty much any 1 or 2 rogue splash.

    I'm not saying they're undesirable, but this thread seems intended to try to get them nerfed, and you seem to be basing it on your experiences in low level heroic content.
    yes it can be done by a 2 level splash my problem is how much artis get in the pure class

    now i will admit i am basing it on heroic levels not low level but still in heroic

    my problem is not so much what they get but more of how much the get staying pure im not trying to get them nerf im more of trying to understand why they are not OP and from what im understanding in the heroic levels they are powerful and maybe a little OP but in epics not so much

    well i guess il have to play one once i finish leveling up my other charaters

  18. #38
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisgina39 View Post
    as for trying to get people to take heavy multiclasses(via the 4 lvls of rogue to disable traps higher the lvl 10) i would be fine with this... as soon as they make it so anymore then 1-3 levels doesn't completely gimp any caster wanting to DC cast or for that matter any type of casting

    also since the 2 rogue 18 wiz build was mentioned keep in mind you lose quite a bit for what you gain i would gain evasion and trap-finding for 1 DC and 2 spell pen arti already have most of rogues useful skills(they do miss out of a few) and repeating crossbows without sacrificing the capstone
    DCs are a completely different issue!

    And yes they are currently causing a lot of talk on these forums!

    The emphasis being that Mob Saves are Simply too high Post Epic Gianthold!

    I'd LOVE to see the Devs work their way through this game making certain that Mobs Saves are brought down to safe levels.
    Unfortunately we have the issue that according to some this cannot be done because any drop whatsoever in Mobs DCs will simply leave us with the exact opposite issue of Maxed out DC Casting being OP instead!


    Yet again - For me - it comes down to my belief that the Devs should have put in absolute maximums when building this game....

    AC/DCs/HP!
    Thanks to stacking abilities, Gear etc. things have got out of hand.

    I'm absolutely not a fan of the Math Degree requiring recent AC Changes!

    Let's take AC as an example....

    The Truthful One or Lolth could be given an AC of 99
    The Devs could work down from there for all mobs in-game currently.
    The Devs could also specify that Lvl 28 End-Game Mobs will have ACs between 95 and 110.

    Then the Devs could work out exactly what would be needed to allow Players to Hit that 110 to Hit on a Fighter Kensai at Lvl 25 {slightly higher than 50% chance to hit The Truthful One or Lolth}
    Then work out what they'd need to add at levels 26-28 so that that Fighter Kensai could hit the Next Raid Bosses AC at just higher than 50%!

    And then work back from there so that even an Arcane {given the right buffs and gear can hit most mobs reliably {25-33% chance - so 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 attacks hits} at level at all levels.

    Of course this would require massive changes to gear and abilities.

  19. #39
    Community Member moops's Avatar
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    I LOVE having Arti's in my End Game Groups--HOWEVER most pug Arti's still ask for Blur and GH and Haste and need to be healed, thus canceling out one of the most awesome things about having an Arti in Group.

    For instance I have put an Arti on solo healing main tank many times, person that rebuffs people that died, or perhaps we are running without a Caster or Bard do they so all the buffs. All this while still having decent CC if in Shiradi or have some twisted in, as well as decent DPS. And the bonus of getting traps for extra xp--yes even in Epics as I don't grind Rusted Blades for Destinies.

    I don't think that they will ever be considered OP as only like 10% play them to their fullest capacity.
    Last edited by moops; 03-14-2013 at 04:15 PM.
    Hexxa CLR 25 *TR* * ~Hexanna ~*TR* FVS 25 * Hexecuter CLR 20 *Flexanna RGR/R/M 18/1/1 *TR* * Flexa FTR/R 18/2 TR * Hextravaganz Bard *TR* 18/2 * Hexotic Sorc 13 * Hexquisite Wiz 23 * ~~Quantum Entropy * SARLONA~~ - * and various other scoundrels

  20. #40
    Community Member Wulverine's Avatar
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    I think some people are seriously underestimating Arti sustained DPS when completely maxed out.

    Also, ranged physical dps should never equal melee dps.

    That is all.

    P.S. Artificer class as a whole is OP, but isnt that what you guys expect? How P2P classes *should* be better?
    Thelanis -- Wulverine [Funkaholic, Funkatronic, Funkarific all retired for now...]

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