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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by PNellesen View Post
    I have a feeling it would be tough getting into raids with that build though - "you only have 8 levels of Cleric! How do you expect to hjealz???"
    hehheh.

    I intentionally designed it to always have more fighter levels than cleric levels, meaning it will show a fighter icon at every level. That way pugs won't mistake you for a healer when you join, at least.

    In terms of raid-worthiness, the sad thing is that it should have better dps than a pally by a pretty significant margin.

  2. #22
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    Hmm, I'd have taken fighter 12/cleric 7/ monk 1 for the extra feat. Then drop empower and extra turning to get the full thf feat chain.

    Then go helf, take monk dilly. This gets you 4 levels of healing amp and human damage boost.

    Your healing amp goes from ~1.43 (dwarf, ship buff, pdk gloves) to ~2.09 (human amp II, monk amp II, ship buff, pdk gloves)

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    Hmm, I'd have taken fighter 12/cleric 7/ monk 1 for the extra feat. Then drop empower and extra turning to get the full thf feat chain.

    Then go helf, take monk dilly. This gets you 4 levels of healing amp and human damage boost.

    Your healing amp goes from ~1.43 (dwarf, ship buff, pdk gloves) to ~2.09 (human amp II, monk amp II, ship buff, pdk gloves)
    Or just go 12/8 human.

  4. #24

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    So, in progress yet?

    What have you decided to go with?
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  5. #25

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    I've actually been mulling over Jingwei's suggestion and the implications of it. Though monk is out; If you're looking for an extra feat by splashing 1 level of a third class, for this build wizard is better than monk in almost every way. (Loses you like 4 hp I think, but every other aspect is a win.)

    I'm starting to wonder how viable burst would be for primary healing. My calculations put it at in the low 100s, which is anemic at best. I'd really like to see it hit 200 at a minimum.

  6. #26
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    Think you are better off relying on maximize + empower healing crue critical, compared to trying to have good burst heals.

    Data looks like:

    ------------

    BURST:
    12.5 (base healing 4.5 + 8)

    60 life magic
    150 maximize
    75 empower
    90 devotion item
    75 empower healing
    5.5 base spell power

    68 healing base

    healing amp ~1.90 (human hamp III, PDK gloves, ship buff)

    so around 129 points healed.
    and that's wearing a 90 devotion item.

    -------------

    Compared to CCW :

    31 base heal (14 + 8 + 9)

    60 life magic
    150 maximize
    75 empower healing
    =
    3.85 base spell power

    119 healing base
    or around 226 after ~1.90 hamp.

    ---------------

    The problem is that quickened, maximized, emp heal ccw costs 65 SP. So you'd have to be able to take around 24 hits to torc that SP back, which means you'd have to take around 10 hp a hit for that to be sustainable.

    That's also why healing amp for this sort of build is so important. You generally have to alternate between burst, lesser silver flame pot, and chain cure casting. Sure it'll keep you up, but it's not a lot of fun.

    On the other hand, I was able to solo hard new invasion at level 18 or 19 on my barb life (barb 7/cleric 7/ rogue 6) and probably doing much worse DPS, even with a ring of lies, that a purpose built build would do. So it's not all bad. Was probably wearing 10% + 20% DT and using a 3pos GS weapon with 30% hamp on it for that fight.

    ---------------

    That's also why I think something like cleric 12 / fighter 6 / paladin 2 or cleric 12 / fighter 6 / rogue 2 or whatever will be a better build. You get access to both he much superior healing aura and the heal spell and can hopefully use DP to make up for your reduced melee damage.

    Or if you think that will make people dislike you too much, you can probably go 12 cleric / 6 monk / 2 ranger and pwnzor everything.
    Last edited by Jingwei; 03-13-2013 at 04:11 AM.

  7. #27

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    The core principle of this build is to emulate a pally without pally levels, only with good dps. 12 cleric changes the nature of the build.

    My actual pally would never be able to sustain 65sp cures and his land for 350hp. (He spends 22sp on them.) So for this build I'm ruling out healing by casting spells pretty much as a rule. However, rejuvenation cocoon + burst is a solid foundation of healing to work with, albeit tying up a (tier 1) twist.

    For devotion I'm thinking to slot it into eAGA, meaning +114 is the target. That also gives +18 implement bonus, for a total of +42 ahead of +90.

    For healing amp I'm now thinking human II, along with the same pdk gloves + 20% of sup parrying bracers combo my pally currently wears.

    The one area where this build falls on its face compared to a pally is saves. It should have plenty of umd for gh scrolls (fear) and can self-cast fom for holds, but dancing ball will probably be a nightmare. And I don't even want to think about reflex. (My pally's saves are something like 5?/48/47, plus evasion.)

  8. #28

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    Running some numbers on a human version using Jingwei's suggestion of dropping extra turning and empower for the full THF line, and I think I like it.

    Assuming eAGA slotted with +114 devotion and both 30% & 20% amp items equipped...

    With quicken, maximize, & empower heal where allowed:
    134 Radiant Burst (range is 96 to 171)
    322 Cure Critical (65sp) This is essentially Lay On Hands
    133 per tick of Rejuvenation Cocoon (12sp) up to 5 ticks per casting

    With just these three I see quality, functional healing. Pallies only get a very limited number of lay on hands. Granted they typically land for 500+ at least, but 300+ is respectable for an emergency button. Besides which, rejuvenation cocoon is the bread and butter.

    With no metas:
    181 Cure Critical (20sp) 9 hp/sp
    148 Cure Serious (12sp) 12 hp/sp
    115 Cure Moderate (8sp) 14 hp/sp
    63 Cure Light (6sp) 10 hp/sp

    This is acceptable base healing, and you get virtually all of it (except cocoon) by level 15. Besides which, once you get to epic levels you can use rejuvenation cocoon between fights to heal 565 hp for 12 sp. Hard to top that. While leveling, burst can shoulder the brunt of the load nicely, plus it's a nice easy way to restore neg levels from beholders.

    Losing Extra Turning costs 4 turns, leaving:

    3 base
    7 charisma (12 base +2 tome +2 ship +8 ghost-waking cloak = 24)
    1 enhancement
    ---
    11 turns, used for burst and divine might

    15 would be nice, of course, but 11 works. The fact that they regenerate helps a ton.

    I'll post the full build soon. Fingers crossed that this week's upcoming sale is on character slots. If so, I'm rolling one up immediately.

  9. #29
    Community Member Jingwei's Avatar
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    The new and improved Whirlwind is probably worth farming for. It'll even take devotion augments.

  10. #30

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    Oooo, shiny! That looks better than carnifex:

    Whirlwind: +5 Screaming Greatsword w/DC 17 knockdown on crit, 1.5[2d6] 15-20x2 w/improved crit
    Carnifex: +2 Keen Greataxe, 1d12, 17-20x3

    Assuming devotion in whirlwind's red slot -- which gives it an advantage -- let's see where they break even. Keeping in mind, of course, that screaming hits pretty much everything, plus it has crowd control...

    Whirlwind
    25*(5+10.5+bonus) + 19*3.5
    25*bonus + 125 + 262.5 + 66.5
    25*bonus + 454

    Carnifex
    27*(2+6.5+bonus)
    27*bonus + 54 + 175.5
    27*bonus + 229.5


    27*bonus + 229.5 = 25*bonus + 454
    2*bonus = 224.5
    bonus = 112.25

    Ha! So if your strength bonus + power attack + ship buffs + set bonus + enhancements + feats + whatever else is one hundred and freaking 12 or higher, carnifex wins. Good lord does whirlwind look awesome!

    Just for completeness, if you don't have improved crit carnifex only needs a mere 81.5 damage bonus to catch up. These numbers seem insane; did I mess up the math somewhere?

  11. #31
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    You may want to check out Xuum, almost as good as Whirlwind and easier to get.
    Bought mine for 9999platin ^^
    Taenebrae, Daemonsoul, Daemoneyes and Daemonheart of Argonessen
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  12. #32
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Since you are considering a "Pally-ish" build. Would you consider Helf with the Pally Dilly to mimic the saves of a True pally?

    A friend of mine just did a Fighter life with 10FTR/8FVS/2Rogue. So your build concept is sound.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

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  13. #33
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    Can you use Improved Critical on Weapons like Whirlwind to expand the range even further? I thought that you could not on Carnifex, which is why I ask.

    I did buy an unbound Whirlwind off the AH about a week ago for 50k for my new Cleric (now level 8). Can't wait to try it out, ESPECIALLY if Improved Critical works with it.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by stefferweffer; 03-15-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Can you use Improved Critical on Weapons like Whirlwind to expand the range even further? I thought that you could not on Carnifex, which is why I ask.

    I did buy an unbound Whirlwind off the AH about a week ago for 50k for my new Cleric (now level 8). Can't waitit to try it out, ESPECIALLY if Improved Critical works with it.

    Thanks.
    Yes you can use impr.Crit with Whirlwind and co.
    Carnifex has Keen, which gives you the impr.Crit feat if you dont have it.
    So it does not further improve Carnifex if you have the feat.
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  15. #35
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefferweffer View Post
    Can you use Improved Critical on Weapons like Whirlwind to expand the range even further?
    Improved Crit works with any weapon which doesn't have the Keen / Impact property. So yes, it works just fine with Whirlwind. What makes Carnifex king of low-lvl 2H weapons is that it's ML:4, keen (earliest you can take IC is lvl 8), and has double the crit range of a normal greataxe.

    Ideally you have SOS + IC:S on your 2H builds, but SOS is a sufficiently rare drop that you need something until you pull one.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    Since you are considering a "Pally-ish" build. Would you consider Helf with the Pally Dilly to mimic the saves of a True pally?
    This looks highly appealing. I'm only planning on taking improved recovery II on the human version, which a half-elf gets. +5 to all saves is win.

    It'll hurt fitting in those extra 6 AP, and I have to figure out a feat to drop, plus a little tighter on skills, but those strike me as minor logistical nuisances.

    Unfortunately, it screws up my stat distribution by requiring 13 cha at start. I was pretty firm on only going 12 base; I'll look into it a little more.

  17. #37
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingwei View Post
    Think you are better off relying on maximize + empower healing crue critical, compared to trying to have good burst heals.

    Data looks like:

    ------------

    BURST:
    12.5 (base healing 4.5 + 8)

    60 life magic
    150 maximize
    75 empower
    90 devotion item
    75 empower healing
    5.5 base spell power

    68 healing base

    healing amp ~1.90 (human hamp III, PDK gloves, ship buff)

    so around 129 points healed.
    and that's wearing a 90 devotion item.
    I think the math a little bit off here.

    I did a extensive testing on bursts:
    RSII actually grants 2 caster levels and Empower healing is enhanced to 100 spell power.

    Correct numbers should look something like this:
    Code:
    BURST:
    14.5	 (base healing 1D8 + 10, actual range 11-18hp)
    
      60	life magic
     150	maximize 
      75	empower
      90	devotion item
     100	empower healing
     475  Total Spell Power (5.75 multiplier)
    	
    83.75 avg healing base (actual range 63-103hp)
    
    Healing amp ~1.90 (human hamp III, PDK gloves, ship buff)
    158 (actual range 119-196hp)
    
    Max healing amp ~2.51 (human hamp III, PDK gloves, ship buff, 20% gear, 10% gear)
    210 (actual range 158-258hp)

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    So, in progress yet?

    What have you decided to go with?
    I spent a couple months on my necro cleric, which is finally capped and flagged for almost every raid. His gear is serviceable but not great, but he raid heals (and insta-kills) well enough that I finally got started on the build concept in this thread.

    I decided to go human and pump up the int as future-proof for the enhancement abomination, where all of a sudden everyone who casts spells gets a skill tax. So the build I went with gets lots of skills. For now I spend the extras on intimidate, jump and balance.

    Started him as a vet2 @ 7 and have leveled him to 13 so far, having just last night finished his upgraded sora kell set. While not yet ready to post a full build thread, I'm tired of the switching around to the many tabs on my build spreadsheet so I want to post it to the forums somewhere. Necroing this thread seemed the logical choice.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Divine Kensei
    Level 25 Chaotic Neutral Human Male
    (12 Fighter \ 8 Cleric \ 5 Epic) 
    
    Abilities          28pt    32pt    34pt    36pt
    Strength            16      18      18      18
    Dexterity            8       8       8       8
    Constitution        14      14      14      16
    Intelligence        12      12      12      12
    Wisdom              10       8      10       8
    Charisma            14      14      14      14
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
    
    Skills              Ranks
    Balance               7
    Concentration        23
    Intimidate           22  
    Jump                  8 
    Tumble                1 
    Use Magic Device     11  
    
    Feats
     1 : Toughness
     1H: Power Attack
     1F: Cleave
     2F: Stunning Blow
     3 : Weapon Focus: Slashing
     6 : Great Cleave
     6F: Weapon Specialization: Slashing
     9 : Extend Spell
    10F: Improved Critical: Slashing
    12 : Empower Healing Spell
    14F: Two Handed Fighting
    15 : Maximize Spell
    17F: Improved Two Handed Fighting
    18 : Greater Two Handed Fighting
    19F: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing
    21E: Overwhelming Critical
    24E: Quicken Spell
    
    Legendary Dreadnought
    Legendary Tactics III
    Extra Action Boost III
    Momentum Swing III
    Improved Power Attack
    Lay Waste
    Critical Damage III
    Anvil of Thunder
    Devastating Critical
    Headman's Chop
    Master's Blitz
    Twist 1: Sense Weakness
    Twist 2: Rejuvenation Cocoon
    Twist 3: Brace for Impact 
    
    Level 1 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Intimidate (+4)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
    
    
    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Intimidate (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
    
    
    Level 3 (Cleric)
    Skill: Concentration (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
    Spell (1): Nightshield
    Spell (1): Protection From Evil
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
    Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
    
    
    Level 4 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Intimidate (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    
    
    Level 5 (Cleric)
    Skill: Concentration (+4)
    Spell (1): Remove Fear
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Intimidate (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
    
    
    Level 7 (Cleric)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
    Spell (2): Resist Energy
    Spell (2): Aid
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Intimidate (+2)
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
    
    
    Level 9 (Cleric)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (1): Divine Favor
    Spell (2): Lesser Restoration
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
    
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Intimidate (+2)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
    
    
    Level 11 (Cleric)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
    Spell (3): Protection From Energy
    Spell (3): Prayer
    Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery I
    Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
    Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
    Enhancement: Improved Heal I
    
    
    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Intimidate (+2)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    Enhancement: Improved Heal II
    Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
    
    
    Level 13 (Cleric)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (2): Remove Paralysis
    Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
    Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
    
    
    Level 14 (Fighter)
    Skill: Intimidate (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
    Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
    
    
    Level 15 (Cleric)
    Skill: Concentration (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    Spell (1): Bless
    Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
    Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
    Spell (4): Death Ward
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
    
    
    Level 16 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Intimidate (+2)
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    
    
    Level 17 (Fighter)
    Skill: Intimidate (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV
    
    
    Level 18 (Fighter)
    Skill: Intimidate (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
    
    
    Level 19 (Fighter)
    Skill: Intimidate (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
    Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery II
    Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
    
    
    Level 20 (Cleric)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Concentration (+4)
    Spell (3): Mass Aid
    Spell (4): Recitation
    Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
    
    
    Level 21 (Cleric)
    Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical
    
    
    Level 24 (Cleric)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
    I'm actually using whirlwind, so my kensei mastery is for greatsword instead of greataxe. I'll respec when I get to 20 and switch to eAGA. (Still need the shard, though I have the scroll and seal.)

    I'd kinda like to be able to use greataxes for the whole life but I had an extra sword of the thirty and whirlwind laying around and I wanted to get started.

  19. #39
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Interesting build idea Ellis thanks for posting it...

    Is this build doable without major amounts of twink gear just for leveling to level 20 and then TR'ing, I have completionist toon I am working on and need to get through 3 fighters lives at some point (along with everything else mind you lol).

    Stoner81.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner81 View Post
    Interesting build idea Ellis thanks for posting it...

    Is this build doable without major amounts of twink gear just for leveling to level 20 and then TR'ing, I have completionist toon I am working on and need to get through 3 fighters lives at some point (along with everything else mind you lol).

    Stoner81.
    That's what I'm doing now, and yeah it works fine. No twink gear at all, really, since it's a first life.

    I'm up to level 15 now, and it's going pretty well. Getting deathward and fom greatly improved the experience, that's for sure.

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