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  1. #1

    Default 12/8 fighter/cleric?

    In a discussion on pallies it was pointed out that you could probably make a better pally by using no pally levels at all. The original suggestion was 14/6 fighter/fvs. I'm leaning toward 12/8 fighter/cleric for a few reasons:

    1) death ward
    2) freedom of movement
    3) burst

    Burst in particular is what I'd like to center the build around. Maximized, empowered, empower healed, quickened burst. With a 5th feat spent on 4 extra turnings to get into double-digit regenerating turns.

    The fighter side would be kensei, with as many dps feats/enhancements as can fit.

    Initial thought is thf dwarf using greataxes: carnifex 4-19, antique greataxe (slotted w/devotion) from 20+, with LD as the destiny. Heavy armor for the PRR.

    Feats actually get tighter than I'd like, but I think it still works:

    7 base (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18)
    2 epic (21, 24)
    7 fighter (1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12)
    ---
    16 feats

    Maximize
    Empower
    Empower Heal
    Quicken
    Extra Turn Undead
    Extend (makes dw & fom 16 minutes instead of 8:00, plus helps short-term buffs like divine favor)

    Toughness
    Stunning Blow
    Improved Critical
    Power Attack
    Cleave
    Great Cleave
    Overwhelming Critical
    Weapon Focus: Slashing
    Weapon Specialization: Slashing
    Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing

    Any builds like this to link to? I did a search but couldn't find anything.

    Any thoughts? Would you rather go 14/6 instead, or maybe use FVS instead of cleric?

  2. #2
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    This might be radically different from what you envision, but a build idea I keep meaning to level is FvS 12 / pally 6 / monk 2:

    • FvS 12 for the spells (mostly buffs, Heal, and light DPS), Shield of Condemnation
    • pally 6 for the survivability bonuses, DoS I, Exalted Smite, Divine Might & Sacrifice I
    • monk 2 for the usual reasons (2 feats + Evasion)

    The concept is to be a lite hate-tank with better self-healing than a regular pally. The light debuff from Shield of Condemnation means mobs attacking you take extra dmg from Sacrifice, Divine Punishment, Radiance weapons & guards, etc. The original concept was TWF HE w/rog dilly (for +3D6 SA ofc); but it should be adaptable to any race or combat style.

    Feats are at a premium: 7 base + 2 monk + 2 epic = 11 total (+1 if human instead). But that's enough for, say, Toughness, 3 metas (Max / Quik / Emp Heal), 5 "core" DPS (TWF or THF x3, Power Atk, IC:Slash), with two left over to round things out (e.g., SM & ISM or CL & GC). You could swap pally for ftr and gain 4 more feats, ofc; but you'd lose the survivability bonuses and in particular Divine Sacrifice, which is kinda key to the whole "make things light-vulnerable then whack them w/light atks" concept I was going for.

  3. #3
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Very interesting and brings in some alternate abilities for Paladin class.

    Cleric vs FvS brings in:

    Use of Burst as a replacement to LoH and Hunter of the Dead Restore capabilities (This could be stronger due to AoE as well as meta magic feats)
    Regeneration of turns means DM and Healing can both be used to maximize Turns
    Fighter Haste Boost as a replacement to Zeal
    Divine Power - BaB enhancement (4th level Spell)

    This leaves the Save Bonus and Disease immunity as the only features not replicated/replaced.

    reducing the Cleric levels to 6 would lose the Level 4 spells and you would need 8 FvS levels to get one level 4 spell choose between Deathward and FoM (9 would get both). I'm seeing at least 2 Level 4 spells this build would want to have memorized - Deathward, Divine Power. FoM would be the 3rd Spell that would put this build over a paladin.

    12/8 Fighter/Cleric Looks the closest to cover all capabilities of a Paladin.

  4. #4

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    I've done something similar, but went Monk instead of Fighter. Do a search on the 'Meric' build, I think it was something like that where I made a post on a 12 Monk/7 Cleric/1 Fighter concept.

    On a side note, I did actually build the character - pre U14. It was good fun and was a extremely self-sufficent, solo capable build. I even ground some excellent gear for him - Mana Bauble, Torc, ConOpp SP Helm, Holy Burst ToD Ring etc etc etc.

    However, I think if I was to roll a similar concept again, I'd look at going Dil: Rogue and Dark Monk instead of Dil: Paladin and Light Monk this time around, for a substantial increase in Melee DPS. I mainly took the Paladin Dil to shore up the Reflex saves, but with U14+ that wouldn't be a problem anymore and the extra 6D6 Sneak Attack DPS and Shadowfade would be extremely gravy.

    If you stick with Fighter though, I would say drop the Kensai angle and go with Stalwart Defender. +4 Str/Con in stance would give you the same tactics bonuses as Kensai as well as an additional +3 Damage while THF. +15% HP and extra PRR would be really handy for the extra survivability.
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    If you stick with Fighter though, I would say drop the Kensai angle and go with Stalwart Defender. +4 Str/Con in stance would give you the same tactics bonuses as Kensai as well as an additional +3 Damage while THF. +15% HP and extra PRR would be really handy for the extra survivability.
    The HP and PRR angle is quite tasty.

    Just to clarify, kensei II gives the following to THF:
    +4 damage
    +8 critical damage (before multiplier)
    +2 tactical dcs
    +8 strength (60-second action boost)
    +2 action boosts/rest
    +2 to-hit

  6. #6
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Pre-epic destinies I don't think it matters one way or the other and the suggestions might be more DPS than a pure Paladin.

    When you figure in epic destinies and the fact that Paladins can get virtually unlimited smites, I'm not sure that it is an improvement.

  7. #7
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    Cure Critical is the spell to take with 8 FvS if we're keeping within the boundry of "self healing melee DPS"

    DP can be clickied.

    Basically the choice between X Cleric or X FvS is Healing versus DPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    DP can be clickied.
    As can DW. Only FOM requires a spell slot, but to be honest, FOM is great but not a deal-breaker.

  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    If you really want FOM, there's still Delving Boots.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Pre-epic destinies I don't think it matters one way or the other and the suggestions might be more DPS than a pure Paladin.

    When you figure in epic destinies and the fact that Paladins can get virtually unlimited smites, I'm not sure that it is an improvement.
    How unlimited are they? The text states 30% faster regen... 90 seconds becomes 60 seconds. Unless it's another ED that has a misleading description.

    I know people like their "big number home run swings" but 12 or 14 smites plus 1 per min (if I'm reading it right) a couple other longer cool down swings out of hundreds of swings is really not the be all end all, when averaged out. The AP investment to make those swings big (10AP for exalted smites, 10 more for extra smites), and the high CHA investment to make them bigger might actually total out to a LOSS in DPS, if those same resources were put into STR, other ED abilities, and 20 AP's in fighter enhancements.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  11. #11

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    Regarding destinies for any of these build variations (12/8 or 14/6, fighter/cleric or fighter/fvs) I'm thinking Legendary Dreadnought as the primary in order to get all the nice tactical boosts and extra action boosts, as well as lay waste and momentum swing to take the place of divine sacrifice and exalted smites.

    Meaning the profile might be:

    Legendary Dreadnought
    - Sense weakness
    - Brace for impact
    - Rejuvenation coccoon

    Does that look about right?

    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    How unlimited are they?
    Not very. Your impression of it being somewhat limited (few uses, long "cooldown") is fair. While waiting for exlated smites to regen, you can get great use out of adrenaline-ing:

    - Divine sacrifice (+1 multiplier)
    - Momentum swing (+5[W])
    - Lay waste (+5[W] and +1 multiplier)

    Depending of course on what you twisted in.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    How unlimited are they? The text states 30% faster regen... 90 seconds becomes 60 seconds. Unless it's another ED that has a misleading description.

    ...
    I wouldn't say "unlimited", what I would say is available more often.

    With a base of 5 Smite Evil with a 6 second Cool down with regen at 60 seconds and using these one right after the other would mean a 30 Second delay between the Last Smite and the ability to smite again. So in theory 6 Smites in the first minute.

    Now with enhancements that bring the cooldown to 5 Seconds that means potentially being able to fire off 13 Exalted Smites in a single minute (Needs 12 Smites available to do this) of course KotC is the only PrE pre-ED that could have this amount 5 (20 Pal levels) + 4 (Extra Smite Enhancements) +3 (PrE III). With Endless Smiting KotC could gain +3 more or also save AP by not buying IV on the Extra Smite.

    Smites/Exalted Smites are Great Burst DPS, for a more long running ability I prefer Divine Sacrifice with items like Con-Op or Torq Divine Sacrifice is a source of higher consistent damage 9d6 Light Damage (very few resistant to this type). The Crit Multiplier bonus still requires an evil opponent so Divine Sacrifice can be seen as a 1/2 Smite .

  13. #13

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    I'm a little too excited about this concept; it's taking willpower to not just buy a character slot right now and roll one up.

    Do all of the following stack?

    Overwhelming Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
    Devastating Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
    Headman's Chop (+1 multiplier on 19-20 for axes)

    Meaning an eAGA w/improved critical would be 2[d20] 19-20x6?

  14. #14
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    How unlimited are they? The text states 30% faster regen... 90 seconds becomes 60 seconds. Unless it's another ED that has a misleading description.

    I know people like their "big number home run swings" but 12 or 14 smites plus 1 per min (if I'm reading it right) a couple other longer cool down swings out of hundreds of swings is really not the be all end all, when averaged out. The AP investment to make those swings big (10AP for exalted smites, 10 more for extra smites), and the high CHA investment to make them bigger might actually total out to a LOSS in DPS, if those same resources were put into STR, other ED abilities, and 20 AP's in fighter enhancements.
    The situation is that, given the number of others involved in melees, Paladins don't really run out of smites before they've regenerated. Of course, this wouldn't be the case if you are soloing (assuming you were spamming smites in every encounter). Then again, soloing by itself reduces the difficulty of any quest and the need to use smites will be smaller as the result.

    You are correct that it is a high investment in enhancements and in CHA. Choice of combat style also should be considered. The real question is whether the sustained damage from higher STR outpaces the damage from smites. And, that is a question that can be skewed depending on what it is that you want to prove.

    And, while the list of CHA attack and damage weapons is quite small there are still some that could prove interesting regardless of content. For example, Epic Dynastic Falcata and Epic Elyd Edge both have potential and the real differences then come in the form of base damage and added elemental/alignment/untyped/etc type damage.

    I'm not saying that the suggested builds are or are not more DPS. I'm just saying that it isn't clear cut like it was in the pre-ED game.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm a little too excited about this concept; it's taking willpower to not just buy a character slot right now and roll one up.

    Do all of the following stack?

    Overwhelming Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
    Devastating Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
    Headman's Chop (+1 multiplier on 19-20 for axes)

    Meaning an eAGA w/improved critical would be 2[d20] 19-20x6?
    I see no reason why they wouldn't - and I can confirm that OC and DC both stack personally.

    (And indeed stack with Earth Stance 3/4 on a Monk to go off on a tangent...)
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm a little too excited about this concept; it's taking willpower to not just buy a character slot right now and roll one up.

    Do all of the following stack?

    Overwhelming Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
    Devastating Critical (+1 multiplier on 19-20)
    Headman's Chop (+1 multiplier on 19-20 for axes)

    Meaning an eAGA w/improved critical would be 2[d20] 19-20x6?
    Unless it's been fixed, devastating Critical actually gives +1 to crit range.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Unless it's been fixed, devastating Critical actually gives +1 to crit range.
    Well phooey, that's not as fun.

  18. #18

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    Here's my first pass at the full build.

    There ends up being "player's choice" feat at 21 between epic toughness and extend spell. Personally I'd much prefer extend, but if the hit points end up being low I'd probably go for epic toughness. It requires a +3 con tome, though, so if you don't have one then I guess extend wins by default.

    The "Divine ... I" prereq for RS1 is taken at 11 and would ideally be divine might I, which requires a +2 cha tome. Without the tome I guess divine vitality I is the best choice.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Radiant Kensei
    Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Male
    (12 Fighter / 8 Cleric / 5 Epic) 
    
    Abilities          28pt    32pt    34pt    36pt
    Strength            16      18      18      18
    Dexterity            8       8       8       8
    Constitution        18      16      18      18
    Intelligence        10      10      10      10
    Wisdom               8      10       8      10
    Charisma            12      12      12      12
    
    Skills              Ranks
    Balance              11
    Bluff                 
    Concentration        
    Diplomacy              
    Disable Device       
    Haggle                 
    Heal                   
    Hide                   
    Intimidate             
    Jump                  
    Listen                
    Move Silently         
    Open Lock             
    Perform              n/a
    Repair                 
    Search                 
    Spot                 
    Swim                  
    Tumble                1
    Use Magic Device     11
    
    Feats
     1 : Toughness
     1F: Stunning Blow
     2F: Power Attack
     3 : Empower Healing Spell
     6 : Quicken
     6F: Cleave
     9 : Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    10F: Great Cleave
    12 : Maximize Spell
    14F: Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    15 : Extra Turning
    17F: Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    18 : Empower Spell
    19F: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    21E: Epic Toughness or Extend Spell
    24E: Overwhelming Critical
    
    Legendary Dreadnought
    Legendary Tactics III
    Extra Action Boost III
    Momentum Swing III
    Improved Power Attack
    Lay Waste
    Critical Damage III
    Anvil of Thunder
    Devastating Critical
    Headman's Chop
    Master's Blitz
    Twist 1: Sense Weakness
    Twist 2: Brace for Impact
    Twist 3: Rejuvenation Cocoon
    
    Level 1 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+2)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
    
    
    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
    
    
    Level 3 (Cleric)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
    Spell (1): Nightshield
    Spell (1): Divine Favor
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    
    
    Level 4 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    
    
    Level 5 (Cleric)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (1): Protection From Evil
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
    Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
    Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
    
    
    Level 7 (Cleric)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
    Spell (2): Resist Energy
    Spell (2): Soundburst
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
    
    
    Level 9 (Cleric)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    Spell (1): Shield of Faith
    Spell (2): Aid
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
    
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
    
    
    Level 11 (Cleric)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
    Spell (3): Prayer
    Spell (3): Protection From Energy
    Enhancement: Take one of:
                 - Cleric Divine Might I (If you have a +2 cha tome)
                 - Cleric Divine Vitality I (If you don't have a cha tome)
    
    
    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
    Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
    Enhancement: Improved Heal I
    Enhancement: Improved Heal II
    Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
    
    
    Level 13 (Cleric)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (2): Remove Paralysis
    Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
    Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
    
    
    Level 14 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
    
    
    Level 15 (Cleric)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Extra Turning
    Spell (1): Remove Fear
    Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
    Spell (4): Death Ward
    Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
    
    
    Level 16 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
    
    
    Level 17 (Fighter)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
    Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery I
    Enhancement: Fighter Greataxe Specialization I
    
    
    Level 18 (Fighter)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
    
    
    Level 19 (Fighter)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
    Enhancement: Kensei Greataxe Mastery II
    Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
    
    
    Level 20 (Cleric)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Spell (3): Mass Aid
    Spell (4): Divine Power
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV
    
    Level 21 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness or Extend Spell
    
    Level 24 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical
    Enhancements

    Kensei II
    Greataxe Mastery II
    Greataxe Specialization I
    Dwarven Axe Damage II
    Strength II

    Haste Boost IV
    Extra Action Boost I
    Divine Might I

    Stunning Blow IV
    Dwarven Tactics II

    Radiant Servant I
    Life Magic III
    Extra Turning I

    Dwarven Constitution II
    Fighter Toughness II
    Dwarven Toughness I

    Attack Boost II (prereq)
    Critical Accuracy II (prereq)
    Improved Heal II (prereq)
    Improved Turning I (prereq)

  19. #19
    Community Member PNellesen's Avatar
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    I've got a melee cleric I've been considering TRing into a Dwarven melee type self-healing self-sufficient build. Having done 19C/1F and 18 Ranger/2 Fighter to death, I was wanting something different this time around. I'd say this would do it

    I have a feeling it would be tough getting into raids with that build though - "you only have 8 levels of Cleric! How do you expect to hjealz???"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertay View Post
    While they were at it though, the devs decided to go on an incredible nerfhammer rampage and left nothing in their wake standing...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    If you really want FOM, there's still Delving Boots.
    Was just going to say that love mine

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

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